First, Hi. Been lurking a while and reading as much as I can. I've decided I'd like to build some big fullrangers with Fostex drivers. Trying to decide on which driver/cab combination. Considerations are as follow:
Room = ~500sqft (~20x24) with the "front" wall being the longer dimension most likely. Carpet floor (for now) and T&G pine ceiling at about 8' high. Could put speakers in corners (24 feet apart) or against wall but the wall will eventually have two 4'x8' picture windows in it that I might or might not have to avoid obstructing (minor consideration that obstruction thing...least for now 'fore the wife says anything).
Music = all kinds potentially
Driven by: at first probably ~10 PP tube watts and/or tripath amp but I'd like to try out the 2A3 SET thing before too long.
What I know now about what I like/don't like - slightly warm, forward sound, ample bass, some sparkle up top. Flat sounding speakers tend to bore me. Scooped is worse. I'm a bit of a bass head but I don't care about HT explosions at all and can live without pipe organs being perfectly reproduced. If it can do Radiohead nicely then it'll be doing what I want it to do. A large soundstage is highly desirable. I don't sit in one place very much.
Reference points of what my ears think: Dahlquist DQ-20: very nice, good mids and nice soundstage, a bit lacking in both low and high end and ; Ohm Walsh 3 - good all arounders but a bit boring - good for listening from different places in a room; Snell Aiii: great! detail, soundstage, somewhat lacking in mids, very fussy about what is driving them, nice bass when driven by the right amp; Klipsch Heresy: ouch, stop shouting at me...; Klipsch KG4: scooped.
My first thought was Fe206en in a BIB. Then I was wondering if I might sacrifice a bit of LF for better mids and go with 166 or 168 (if I can stretch the wallet). Would I still get some low end grins with the 6.5" drivers? So then I started thinking Sachiko or Hiro -- smoother but sacrificing a bit more LF, right? Basically I'd like to get the mids as nice as possible while still having "enough" bass. Last I've wondered about BVR's with the 7 series drivers -- don't know how these fit in with the above soundwise.
I know there is a lot written here about all these and I've tried to read as much as possible. I just still haven't pieced it all together into a decision. I'm hoping that by posting I'll get an answer that helps me arrive at one.
Thanks,
Michael
Room = ~500sqft (~20x24) with the "front" wall being the longer dimension most likely. Carpet floor (for now) and T&G pine ceiling at about 8' high. Could put speakers in corners (24 feet apart) or against wall but the wall will eventually have two 4'x8' picture windows in it that I might or might not have to avoid obstructing (minor consideration that obstruction thing...least for now 'fore the wife says anything).
Music = all kinds potentially
Driven by: at first probably ~10 PP tube watts and/or tripath amp but I'd like to try out the 2A3 SET thing before too long.
What I know now about what I like/don't like - slightly warm, forward sound, ample bass, some sparkle up top. Flat sounding speakers tend to bore me. Scooped is worse. I'm a bit of a bass head but I don't care about HT explosions at all and can live without pipe organs being perfectly reproduced. If it can do Radiohead nicely then it'll be doing what I want it to do. A large soundstage is highly desirable. I don't sit in one place very much.
Reference points of what my ears think: Dahlquist DQ-20: very nice, good mids and nice soundstage, a bit lacking in both low and high end and ; Ohm Walsh 3 - good all arounders but a bit boring - good for listening from different places in a room; Snell Aiii: great! detail, soundstage, somewhat lacking in mids, very fussy about what is driving them, nice bass when driven by the right amp; Klipsch Heresy: ouch, stop shouting at me...; Klipsch KG4: scooped.
My first thought was Fe206en in a BIB. Then I was wondering if I might sacrifice a bit of LF for better mids and go with 166 or 168 (if I can stretch the wallet). Would I still get some low end grins with the 6.5" drivers? So then I started thinking Sachiko or Hiro -- smoother but sacrificing a bit more LF, right? Basically I'd like to get the mids as nice as possible while still having "enough" bass. Last I've wondered about BVR's with the 7 series drivers -- don't know how these fit in with the above soundwise.
I know there is a lot written here about all these and I've tried to read as much as possible. I just still haven't pieced it all together into a decision. I'm hoping that by posting I'll get an answer that helps me arrive at one.
Thanks,
Michael
>>> Could put speakers in corners (24 feet apart) or against wall but the wall will eventually have two 4'x8' picture windows...
Will you have a listening spot or do you want music all around the room? How will you use the room? I wonder if only two speakers will be ideal or if there might be another solution.
If you want just two speakers i think your original idea of 206e in BIBs in corners will fill the room better than the smaller 166 or 168. The 206e is also more efficient to be used with the power you want to use.
Didn't Klipsch have a three way setup using two in corners and one in the middle? Anyone know how that worked? I can picture three BIBs or two BIBs in the corners and one center speaker... but not sure how that produces stereo?
Godzilla
Will you have a listening spot or do you want music all around the room? How will you use the room? I wonder if only two speakers will be ideal or if there might be another solution.
If you want just two speakers i think your original idea of 206e in BIBs in corners will fill the room better than the smaller 166 or 168. The 206e is also more efficient to be used with the power you want to use.
Didn't Klipsch have a three way setup using two in corners and one in the middle? Anyone know how that worked? I can picture three BIBs or two BIBs in the corners and one center speaker... but not sure how that produces stereo?
Godzilla
Seems I read the Heresy was originally a center speaker for the Klipschorn. That is how it got the name, not all horn loaded.
No idea how it sounded.
No idea how it sounded.
I'm not likely to have a listening spot. I've got 4yo and 8mo kids and I'm a computer scientist. That equates to either sitting in front of a computer with headphones on or not sitting still at all.
I do have a couple of integrated stereo tube amps with center channel speaker taps. I'm not really sure how they work either. I'd have to take a closer look. At any rate I'll want to stick with two channel systems as that makes things much simpler when it comes to trying different rigs and whatnot.
So a BIB will fill space better than something like a Sachiko?
I do have a couple of integrated stereo tube amps with center channel speaker taps. I'm not really sure how they work either. I'd have to take a closer look. At any rate I'll want to stick with two channel systems as that makes things much simpler when it comes to trying different rigs and whatnot.
So a BIB will fill space better than something like a Sachiko?
Another option for big sound and clean bass extension with either the FE166 or 206 would be one of Scott Lindgren's designs, either from the earlier SPAWN family:
The Spawn Family of Double Horns
or from the more recent Woden catalog
Woden Design | Design
Be advised that any of the above would be a more challenging project than BIB or Metronome
Note that with Fostex's recent production changes to the FE& FF series ( i.e. the "downsizing" of models, as well as updating of previously "ambitious" T/S specs), Scott hasn't completed reworking the extensive math on designs for all the current drivers.
Having heard a few of his (Scott's) designs for smaller drivers (FE126E, FE127E, Mark Audio etc.) and a couple of BIB/Metronome executions, if you have the floor space for the larger double mouth designs, you'd likely be able to meet most of the points on your wish list. In corners of a 24ft long wall might be a bit too far apart - and the big boys probably really don't need the boundary reinforcement as do the BIBs. IIRC the general suggestions for starting point of placement would be listening distance of 3-4 meters, and probably that far apart.
BVRs or other loading schemes with the late "7" series can sound very musical indeed, particularly in an intimate setting with a tasty 2A3 SET or triode strapped EL84 or EL34, but could be underfed in a room your size - and of course NIB drivers are somewhat rare these days.
and by posting here, you're assured lots of helpful advice, but don't expect a single magic bullet answer ( consensus in DIY? 🙄 )
enjoy the ride
edit:
I see that Jeff has answered some of your questions differently, and certainly has far more experience with the BIB design, so the question as to filling the room "better" is a good one.
IIRC the center channel connection one those old "stereo" rigs was something more than a simple mono blend for fill. Discounting some brief flirtations with 3 discrete channels via tape, I don't think "multi-channel" ever really hit popular mainstream consumer products until the highly amusing "4-channel" wars.
The Spawn Family of Double Horns
or from the more recent Woden catalog
Woden Design | Design
Be advised that any of the above would be a more challenging project than BIB or Metronome
Note that with Fostex's recent production changes to the FE& FF series ( i.e. the "downsizing" of models, as well as updating of previously "ambitious" T/S specs), Scott hasn't completed reworking the extensive math on designs for all the current drivers.
Having heard a few of his (Scott's) designs for smaller drivers (FE126E, FE127E, Mark Audio etc.) and a couple of BIB/Metronome executions, if you have the floor space for the larger double mouth designs, you'd likely be able to meet most of the points on your wish list. In corners of a 24ft long wall might be a bit too far apart - and the big boys probably really don't need the boundary reinforcement as do the BIBs. IIRC the general suggestions for starting point of placement would be listening distance of 3-4 meters, and probably that far apart.
BVRs or other loading schemes with the late "7" series can sound very musical indeed, particularly in an intimate setting with a tasty 2A3 SET or triode strapped EL84 or EL34, but could be underfed in a room your size - and of course NIB drivers are somewhat rare these days.
and by posting here, you're assured lots of helpful advice, but don't expect a single magic bullet answer ( consensus in DIY? 🙄 )
enjoy the ride
edit:
I see that Jeff has answered some of your questions differently, and certainly has far more experience with the BIB design, so the question as to filling the room "better" is a good one.
IIRC the center channel connection one those old "stereo" rigs was something more than a simple mono blend for fill. Discounting some brief flirtations with 3 discrete channels via tape, I don't think "multi-channel" ever really hit popular mainstream consumer products until the highly amusing "4-channel" wars.
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Try to listen to the Saburos somewhere... you will be addicted to them immediatly!
Just built them.
Yeah, 2A3 will be the top of the cherry... but find someone to build them with 6 watts per channel...like 2A3PSE...hehehe 😀
Just built them.
Yeah, 2A3 will be the top of the cherry... but find someone to build them with 6 watts per channel...like 2A3PSE...hehehe 😀
I thought that the Sachiko, Hiro, and BVRs that I mentioned were from the Spawn family, no? or is there something I'm missing.
Noted on the FEXXXe vs FExxxen. I wasn't aware there was a big change and it is worth knowing. The BIB calculator from Zilla's site should work for BIB though, right?
Madisound seems to still have the FE207E but the other 7's are gone. I guess if I'm gonna go that route I ought to pull the trigger pronto. I've got nothing against used drivers though and am keeping an eye out for them.
I think I'm enough of a bass hog that I will stick with at least a 6.5" driver. In thinking more it seems like the two ends of my decision matrix are either the Hiro or a FE206E BIB. If the Hiro will supply the bass and fill the room then that is probably the way I want to go -- smaller, cool looking cabinet, less dependence on walls and corners.
It might also be worth mentioning that if I like these they probably won't be the last build I do.
I'm still trying to get a handle on the difference in sound between an Olson-Nagoka double horn and a BIB. BIB more bass, double horn a bit smoother. I get the impression that there is more to it than that but I am not exactly sure what that something is. Maybe I'll just have to build both for myself. I live out in the sticks (Western NC) so I'm not likely to run into any audition opportunities.
Thanks for the replies.
Noted on the FEXXXe vs FExxxen. I wasn't aware there was a big change and it is worth knowing. The BIB calculator from Zilla's site should work for BIB though, right?
Madisound seems to still have the FE207E but the other 7's are gone. I guess if I'm gonna go that route I ought to pull the trigger pronto. I've got nothing against used drivers though and am keeping an eye out for them.
I think I'm enough of a bass hog that I will stick with at least a 6.5" driver. In thinking more it seems like the two ends of my decision matrix are either the Hiro or a FE206E BIB. If the Hiro will supply the bass and fill the room then that is probably the way I want to go -- smaller, cool looking cabinet, less dependence on walls and corners.
It might also be worth mentioning that if I like these they probably won't be the last build I do.
I'm still trying to get a handle on the difference in sound between an Olson-Nagoka double horn and a BIB. BIB more bass, double horn a bit smoother. I get the impression that there is more to it than that but I am not exactly sure what that something is. Maybe I'll just have to build both for myself. I live out in the sticks (Western NC) so I'm not likely to run into any audition opportunities.
Thanks for the replies.
Assuming the Olson concept is properly done, it will have way more control over the driver with much more life-like 'punch'/'slam', dynamic headroom. A simple pipe horn offers a lot of 'bang-buck', but with no filter chamber it can only do so much without heavily stuffing it, which of course means no bass to speak of.
GM
GM
If you execute any of even the simplest of the designs yet discussed, I think that's a safe bet 🙄
how would you try to describe the taste of Belgium vs Dutch chocolate to someone who's only ever experienced a Mars bar?
The Hiro is cool for sure but may i suggest buying the Fostex 207e and building BIBs and also the Chang which has the double mouth but is much easier to build than the Hiro. This way you buy one set of drivers and can concentrate on building cabinets created specifically for them. When you find another reason to build another pair of speakers (i create reasons lol) you can see what Fostex finally offers and make decisions on current drivers for future projects.
If you buy 8 inch full range drivers you will be curious about 6 inch... then 4 inch and maybe even 3 inch. For your room requirements the 8 inch will fill the room best and then you can work your way down in scale on your own schedule.
Just my 2 cents.
If you buy 8 inch full range drivers you will be curious about 6 inch... then 4 inch and maybe even 3 inch. For your room requirements the 8 inch will fill the room best and then you can work your way down in scale on your own schedule.
Just my 2 cents.
I have listened extensively to a Khorn/Belle/Khorn setup. It is what one would expect from Klipsch. Dynamics are effortless center fill is spot on and image depth is somewhat restricted. Khorns really come alive with a crossover rebuild which will put them at the top of the heap imho.
fair enough evaluation - not many of us will have heard this exact combination; but OTOH, how many of the type of FR /BLH etc designs discussed in this thread have you experienced?
Well, as is often the case (at least with me) I've gone a slightly different direction. A decent deal on NIB FE126E came up on ye old bay today and I made 'em mine so now I'm thinking Saburo. Ought to give me a decent enough entry into this realm. Also thinking of picking up a TK2050 based amp to drive them.
I'm pretty sure I'll still want to do some big 'uns too so I'm still on the lookout for some FE206E or maybe the FE207E. There seem to be more FE207E on the used market and that makes me wonder if maybe they don't end up as loved or maybe they are being used in BR cabinets and not loved there. Dunno. Anyway, how much difference is there between the E series and eN series??
I'm pretty sure I'll still want to do some big 'uns too so I'm still on the lookout for some FE206E or maybe the FE207E. There seem to be more FE207E on the used market and that makes me wonder if maybe they don't end up as loved or maybe they are being used in BR cabinets and not loved there. Dunno. Anyway, how much difference is there between the E series and eN series??
Saburo -if you're up to the build, I doubt you wouldn't be happy, but start breaking those drivers in as soon as possible - several hundred hours continuous play isn't quite as hard as you might think ( i.e. just over 8 days ).
You could be right about the 207s - or that builders found the last couple of octaves needed work and got a bit of sticker shock at cost of decent tweeters.
Assuming you're talking about Fostex's designation of model numbers, this will apply of course to only the "6" series, I'm not sure there's enough anecdotal evidence to support a consensus as to whether all 3 (126/166/206) have improved in the same areas or to the same degree.
What is known is that regardless of what the changes of published specs might predict, many owners of Horneshoppe Horns have already upgraded from the previous production version of the 126, and have been thrilled with the results. This could be why the NIB 126E became available.
None. I recently aquired an NOS pair of AN cast 12's for $cheap and will start with the small AN enclosure for break in. Moose and Freddi suggested the large AN enclosure and the Karlson 15 in my recent post. I really like the curvy chang and Madisound has the 207 marked down about twenty percent. Atlanta is where I call home so if anyone out there is building this stuff let me know. I would love to have a listen.
The build shouldn't be a problem. I've got the tooling in the garage. Time is the real kicker but once I get started it really isn't that much of a leap from a BIB to the Saburo. Just a few more cuts and clamps.
Its nice to hear that they might have really improved the drivers. Too often these days the "new" version seems to be one that is cheaper to produce and quality be damned.
Its nice to hear that they might have really improved the drivers. Too often these days the "new" version seems to be one that is cheaper to produce and quality be damned.
spacing of cabinets
Greetings!
One thing I would be afraid of was mentioned briefly, but I would like to reiterate it. The placement is very important if you're going with just 2ch. If you go all the way out to 24ft wide, then you'll be listening to more of a dual mono sound than true stereo. 24ft wide is about as big as a recital hall stage. I would recommend coming into the edges of those windows.
Having gone the open baffle route I can't help you decide between the options you've listed, but by posting here you've opened yourself up to some very good support. Congrat's on that decision!
later,
G
Greetings!
One thing I would be afraid of was mentioned briefly, but I would like to reiterate it. The placement is very important if you're going with just 2ch. If you go all the way out to 24ft wide, then you'll be listening to more of a dual mono sound than true stereo. 24ft wide is about as big as a recital hall stage. I would recommend coming into the edges of those windows.
Having gone the open baffle route I can't help you decide between the options you've listed, but by posting here you've opened yourself up to some very good support. Congrat's on that decision!
later,
G
Thanks on the 24ft thing. I thought that would be too far. Building Saburos I shouldn't be so dependent on corners.
I just finished some sorta quick and dirty open baffles. Just 2x4 sheets of 3/4 birch with a holes in them. I've got EV Wolverine LT-12s in them and they do neat stuff with acoustic guitar and such but get mangled by busier, more full spectrum music.
I just finished some sorta quick and dirty open baffles. Just 2x4 sheets of 3/4 birch with a holes in them. I've got EV Wolverine LT-12s in them and they do neat stuff with acoustic guitar and such but get mangled by busier, more full spectrum music.
Question on the break-in playing? Does it need to be loud? I'm playing them (FE126E) at a pretty moderate level in the basement. Hard to play constantly at levels very loud with a baby in the house. Also, first had it on FM static 'cause this can go louder than music in the house without disturbing people upstairs. I changed to music because I was worried about giving the drivers a rest / heating issues, etc.. Any thoughts on that?
Or try to find one of Alex Kitic's RH84 / RH807 / RH34 / RH88 amps which sound very nice and pretty close to a 300B for a fraction of the maintenance costs.
AM
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