Not really. Why would I contradict myself. I have listened to non-os and quickly went back to oversampling. So the listening facts were clear on the previous page.
And if the facts are 5 years old, where are they?
@Per: that Crystal dac can be made to sound great with a minimum of external components, thanks for the link.
Remco
@ultranalog, allthough your comments are generally very welcome, you are beginning to loose symphathie due to the tone of your posts.
@JP, cann't wait to build one myself and compare it with my philips CD723, CS 24bit 196KHz, and my CS4334 Rod Elliott's DAC's. I think will incorporate a BJT active output stage and a analog 1st or 2nd order (bessel ?) low-pass characteristic.
@Per, just finished my Rod Elliott's DAC's this weekend. To my ears it sounds decent at least, but not excellent (yet). I'll keep it playing for some more days before I make my final comments.
Be nice fellows 😉
Greetings,
Thijs
@JP, cann't wait to build one myself and compare it with my philips CD723, CS 24bit 196KHz, and my CS4334 Rod Elliott's DAC's. I think will incorporate a BJT active output stage and a analog 1st or 2nd order (bessel ?) low-pass characteristic.
@Per, just finished my Rod Elliott's DAC's this weekend. To my ears it sounds decent at least, but not excellent (yet). I'll keep it playing for some more days before I make my final comments.
Be nice fellows 😉
Greetings,
Thijs
Well, I'll admit I could have been nicer. But I won't tolerate being called names just for pointing out facts (by someone who has 'Time for the truth' in his signature, no less), and have reported that post. I'm not trying to 'win' a discussion. Instead I've provided information on the true cause of distortion in the multibit converters, along with a solution. 'Just listen to it' is not a valid argument in a discussion, especially when one doesn't know whether that has been done.
Remco
tschrama said:
I think this discussion is about different things. As a DIY project I think the CS4334 is splendid but also this chip is a low cost chip with "worse" performance than the best. Also to make a pcb and squeeze out EVERYTHING from a CS43122/AK4395 and simliar chip is not for an amateur.
tschrama said:
Re: Feel attacked !?!?
I do not feel attacked at all, well maybe now...
Fedde
I do not feel attacked at all, well maybe now...
It's true that Scott Nixon has done a lot of work on the DAC. But you can't say he is really informative on his page. As you can read on my page, I fully admit that the design was not made by me. The only thing I was did was trying a lot of tweaks described on the forum. So I really don't understand your comment. I am just trying to be helpful for people that want to build a DAC. In my humble opinion both Richard's and Scott's pages do not have enough information for starters, but they are also helpful.You're right but I merely advised his page for the basic schematic and the hints for PCB design. Richard Murdey and Scott Nixon are the men that began with this schematic and Richard is the only one that shows different PCB designs. Everybody else followed this design and tweaked it. I did, you did certainly too.
Don not act like you invented this stuff.
What do you mean ? I found the filter on the tweakers as. and tried it as a tweak. I listened to the difference.
Fedde
NONOZ DAC website
Hi fedde,
There are numerous websites featuring the TDA1543 DAC NON-OS.
I feel the merit of yours is you have incorporated the Wildmonkeysects loopfilter for the PLL of the CS8412 and my Asynchronous Reclocker. In fact your are the second to have adopted it. Hopefully the result is more than the sum of the parts.
Of course you can proceed and install my interface with the AD8561 comparator between coxcable and CS8412, feed the PLL with low-noise 5V, switch over to TDA1545 etc.🙂
Hi fedde,
There are numerous websites featuring the TDA1543 DAC NON-OS.
I feel the merit of yours is you have incorporated the Wildmonkeysects loopfilter for the PLL of the CS8412 and my Asynchronous Reclocker. In fact your are the second to have adopted it. Hopefully the result is more than the sum of the parts.
Of course you can proceed and install my interface with the AD8561 comparator between coxcable and CS8412, feed the PLL with low-noise 5V, switch over to TDA1545 etc.🙂
Re: NONOZ DAC website
fedde,
I was at your page just the other day. You do a service to the community by providing information.
I personally have no opinion on DACs because i have no experience with them. My CD collection is almost up to 30 vrs my vinyl collection of 5k+ so i'm going to be one of those that just skips over the CD -- a step backward in my opinion that let some people make a lot of money. I am amazed that people have perservered and dragged so much performance out of such a flawed media. Also one of the reasons why SE tube amps have made such a comeback in that the combination with CDs ends up in a system where they theoretical deficiencies of each tend to cancel to make music.
The whole issue of the NOS DAC is quite interesting. In theory it should suck (and i have enuff theoretical background -- degree in math -- to understand why). But on the net, in the magazines, and from locals of whom i have respect it seems that many people like how they sound. And if they like it, who am i to say what they should like, as long as we can each sit down and enjoy the music coming out of our systems.
I see the debate much as the arguements for and against SE tube amps, yet SE amps have firmly entrenched themselves because people enjoy listening to them.
So lets stop this "it sucks", "it doesn't suck" bickering. It accomplishes nothing except establish what side of the fence people are on.
One thing i can say about NOS DACs is that their simplicity, like the SE tube amp, makes them more approachable to the less experienced DIYer and as such brings more people into this growing, rich & vibrant community. And that is a good thing.
Now back to that 180g pressing of Patricia Barber 😀
dave
fedde,
I was at your page just the other day. You do a service to the community by providing information.
I personally have no opinion on DACs because i have no experience with them. My CD collection is almost up to 30 vrs my vinyl collection of 5k+ so i'm going to be one of those that just skips over the CD -- a step backward in my opinion that let some people make a lot of money. I am amazed that people have perservered and dragged so much performance out of such a flawed media. Also one of the reasons why SE tube amps have made such a comeback in that the combination with CDs ends up in a system where they theoretical deficiencies of each tend to cancel to make music.
The whole issue of the NOS DAC is quite interesting. In theory it should suck (and i have enuff theoretical background -- degree in math -- to understand why). But on the net, in the magazines, and from locals of whom i have respect it seems that many people like how they sound. And if they like it, who am i to say what they should like, as long as we can each sit down and enjoy the music coming out of our systems.
I see the debate much as the arguements for and against SE tube amps, yet SE amps have firmly entrenched themselves because people enjoy listening to them.
So lets stop this "it sucks", "it doesn't suck" bickering. It accomplishes nothing except establish what side of the fence people are on.
One thing i can say about NOS DACs is that their simplicity, like the SE tube amp, makes them more approachable to the less experienced DIYer and as such brings more people into this growing, rich & vibrant community. And that is a good thing.
Now back to that 180g pressing of Patricia Barber 😀
dave
The public domain and intellectual property
"It's true that Scott Nixon has done a lot of work on the DAC. But you can't say he is really informative on his page."
Scott Nixon is selling kits. He has done an incredible amount of work on the DAC kit including a great PCB design, component voicing, measurements, and good documentaion. He is a DAC designer on the my short list of the best I have heard. And l have followed his work for well over a decade. He has developed a great kit at a reasonable price. He even has levels of component choices to make it an even better value for the thrifty DIYer. This is not a trival effort but a truly outstanding sounding DAC and amoung the best I have heard. I know. I have one. Give the man some credit and don't steal intellectual property and post it all over the WEB. The first copy of his schematic I see here will let everyone find out what a real ******** I can be! And I will be in contact with the moderators so fast you won't believe it. Scott has been very supportive to his customer questions and a contributer to this is several other forums with unselfish advice. He has an knowledge of high end design and history that is stagering and is on my very short list gurus. He has been a pricless resource of audio knowledge to me and many others and has never recieved proper recognition.
Fred Dieckmann
"It's true that Scott Nixon has done a lot of work on the DAC. But you can't say he is really informative on his page."
Scott Nixon is selling kits. He has done an incredible amount of work on the DAC kit including a great PCB design, component voicing, measurements, and good documentaion. He is a DAC designer on the my short list of the best I have heard. And l have followed his work for well over a decade. He has developed a great kit at a reasonable price. He even has levels of component choices to make it an even better value for the thrifty DIYer. This is not a trival effort but a truly outstanding sounding DAC and amoung the best I have heard. I know. I have one. Give the man some credit and don't steal intellectual property and post it all over the WEB. The first copy of his schematic I see here will let everyone find out what a real ******** I can be! And I will be in contact with the moderators so fast you won't believe it. Scott has been very supportive to his customer questions and a contributer to this is several other forums with unselfish advice. He has an knowledge of high end design and history that is stagering and is on my very short list gurus. He has been a pricless resource of audio knowledge to me and many others and has never recieved proper recognition.
Fred Dieckmann
Attachments
Re: The public domain and intellectual property
The local crew here also speak very highly of Scott's kit. I have had some pleasant email exchanges with him, and agree with Fred that support for his endeavor is a good thing. It is work such as his, that makes it easy for a nonDIYer to cross the threshold into our realm -- and the more of us there are, the better it is for each 7 every one of us.
Efforts like his, the AKSA, VacuumState kits, Marchand, and so forth should always be respected. Their success with our support means that the liklihood of more kits for those with just one foot in is more likely. Think of all the projects you have seen that you would be more likely to build because of the aid of a kit or semi-kit.
dave
Fred Dieckmann said:
The local crew here also speak very highly of Scott's kit. I have had some pleasant email exchanges with him, and agree with Fred that support for his endeavor is a good thing. It is work such as his, that makes it easy for a nonDIYer to cross the threshold into our realm -- and the more of us there are, the better it is for each 7 every one of us.
Efforts like his, the AKSA, VacuumState kits, Marchand, and so forth should always be respected. Their success with our support means that the liklihood of more kits for those with just one foot in is more likely. Think of all the projects you have seen that you would be more likely to build because of the aid of a kit or semi-kit.
dave
Hello Fred,
Although I agree with you in general I have to say that your remarks about Scott's schematics are not justified. The schematic is public domain because it was an open source project at:
http://pub4.ezboard.com/ffakeidsfrm1
I verified this earlier with Richard Murdey. Scott has put a lot of effort in the kit as you stated.
Even though I am not a paying customer he always reacts on questions or remarks and he gave me advice too.
.
Although I agree with you in general I have to say that your remarks about Scott's schematics are not justified. The schematic is public domain because it was an open source project at:
http://pub4.ezboard.com/ffakeidsfrm1
I verified this earlier with Richard Murdey. Scott has put a lot of effort in the kit as you stated.
Even though I am not a paying customer he always reacts on questions or remarks and he gave me advice too.
.
Re: The public domain and intellectual property
By looking at those green LEDs I can tell right away it's your DAC.😉 But what is Jocko saying for that?😉 😉 He was never a fan of NOS stuff.
Fred Dieckmann said:
By looking at those green LEDs I can tell right away it's your DAC.😉 But what is Jocko saying for that?😉 😉 He was never a fan of NOS stuff.
But what is Jocko saying for that?
Jocko has not heard it yet, or any other non OS DAC that I know of. I also own one of Jocko's DACs. The main reason I got the Nixon non OS DAC was to annoy Jocko. We both have great respect for Scott Nixon and a three way friendship that goes beyond audio preferences. There many paths up the mountain. I say if I can't make up my mind, why not have one of each. The Nixon DAC is really quite outstanding. When Scott gets excited about something, I listen. The man is usually dead on about the sound of a design and was one of my best beta testers when I was doing high end commercially. I used one of his earlier DACs as well as Jocko's for my product developement. I used to swap my digital interface devices for digital cables from some of the best high end designers out there, till I designed my own digital cable series. I heard some stuff before the reviewers wrote about it.
Audio design does not happen in a vacuum, well maybe a vacuum tube... There is an amazing amount of cross pollenization going on. The WWW has raised this to another level if you know enough to weed through the crap and focus on the good stuff. I trust the person that has actually heard something, not the hundreds who have heard ABOUT something. Education and experience are whole different ballgame that repeating gossip and the party line. Remember that, as you read stuff on the web and in the audio journals. Even in, no especially in, my post. No one else can hear for you.
Fred
P.S." 'Just listen to it' is not a valid argument in a discussion...."
Actually it may the ONLY valid argument at the end of the day.
That what the point of designing your own stuff is all about. I never built anything just to make measurments or even to "walk the dogma" if you will. The equipment is to enjoy music with, and all the other stuff is not the real point at all, is it? Less talking and and more listening please.
Fred
Jocko has not heard it yet, or any other non OS DAC that I know of. I also own one of Jocko's DACs. The main reason I got the Nixon non OS DAC was to annoy Jocko. We both have great respect for Scott Nixon and a three way friendship that goes beyond audio preferences. There many paths up the mountain. I say if I can't make up my mind, why not have one of each. The Nixon DAC is really quite outstanding. When Scott gets excited about something, I listen. The man is usually dead on about the sound of a design and was one of my best beta testers when I was doing high end commercially. I used one of his earlier DACs as well as Jocko's for my product developement. I used to swap my digital interface devices for digital cables from some of the best high end designers out there, till I designed my own digital cable series. I heard some stuff before the reviewers wrote about it.
Audio design does not happen in a vacuum, well maybe a vacuum tube... There is an amazing amount of cross pollenization going on. The WWW has raised this to another level if you know enough to weed through the crap and focus on the good stuff. I trust the person that has actually heard something, not the hundreds who have heard ABOUT something. Education and experience are whole different ballgame that repeating gossip and the party line. Remember that, as you read stuff on the web and in the audio journals. Even in, no especially in, my post. No one else can hear for you.
Fred
P.S." 'Just listen to it' is not a valid argument in a discussion...."
Actually it may the ONLY valid argument at the end of the day.
That what the point of designing your own stuff is all about. I never built anything just to make measurments or even to "walk the dogma" if you will. The equipment is to enjoy music with, and all the other stuff is not the real point at all, is it? Less talking and and more listening please.
Fred
Re: The public domain and intellectual property
Sorry, but you completely miss the point.
Please have a look at the original DAC discussion before posting more like this:
http://pub4.ezboard.com/ffakeidsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=237.topic
It was Thorsten who iniated the idea. Then Richard had drawn a schematic. I used that schematic for my first DAC. Lateron, I changed some things. So I never used anything from Scott.
If I would be stealing any intellectual property it would be from 47 labs, but very probably, my version of the DAC is quite different.
I am really surprised about all these posts. I only wanted to help the DIY community. I have always been clear that I used work of other people. Why are most of the reactions so negative ? That doesn't really motivate me making pages like this...
Fedde
Sorry, but you completely miss the point.
Please have a look at the original DAC discussion before posting more like this:
http://pub4.ezboard.com/ffakeidsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=237.topic
It was Thorsten who iniated the idea. Then Richard had drawn a schematic. I used that schematic for my first DAC. Lateron, I changed some things. So I never used anything from Scott.
If I would be stealing any intellectual property it would be from 47 labs, but very probably, my version of the DAC is quite different.
I am really surprised about all these posts. I only wanted to help the DIY community. I have always been clear that I used work of other people. Why are most of the reactions so negative ? That doesn't really motivate me making pages like this...
Fedde
Those things are so simple that it's hard to say somebody steals something from anybody. Most of those designs happen rather by accident IMHO.😉
Just ignore the negative, Fedde
I can readily understand why you might feel the way that you do.
Chalk it up to life and the internet. And don't let it deter you from your course.
Actually, there's a number of reasons for such posts - in Cyberspace there are so many personalities - stuff comes across differently than intended - smart, aggressive people find it difficult to turn it off - there is a fine line that posters shouldn't cross but it frequently is hard to see - and the line is different to different people.
A major factor in stuff like this is that many times individuals have not learned the art of discourse without attacking - actually it is quite difficult to disagree with someone or give critical and negative information and do so without attacking or appearing to attack.
Some people naturally deal in a manner that is more positive - others do not.
I certainly have enjoyed reading all aspects of this thread -
Don't take anything negative here to heart.
😀
later
Ken L
I can readily understand why you might feel the way that you do.
Chalk it up to life and the internet. And don't let it deter you from your course.
Actually, there's a number of reasons for such posts - in Cyberspace there are so many personalities - stuff comes across differently than intended - smart, aggressive people find it difficult to turn it off - there is a fine line that posters shouldn't cross but it frequently is hard to see - and the line is different to different people.
A major factor in stuff like this is that many times individuals have not learned the art of discourse without attacking - actually it is quite difficult to disagree with someone or give critical and negative information and do so without attacking or appearing to attack.
Some people naturally deal in a manner that is more positive - others do not.
I certainly have enjoyed reading all aspects of this thread -
Don't take anything negative here to heart.
😀
later
Ken L
Some people naturally deal in a manner that is more positive - others do not.
some
others
Hmmmm I wonder if he was talking about......
Naw.. it couldn't be....
Fred
some
othersHmmmm I wonder if he was talking about......
Naw.. it couldn't be....
Fred
Peter,
i have notices of appeal from both plaintiff and accused in my inbox. I went thru the thead, i take charge. I'm not amused at all about what i read and there have several points to be adressed.
ok, lets process LIFO style,
Fred,
1st,
"noone else can hear for you"
2nd
you are dead right with your remarks on intellectual property.
3rd
i see now i have to persecute the thing you rubbed my nose into in private. Topic intellectual property.
##rant##
Anyone here probably knows that i am preaching free flow of knowledge, putting all knowledge into a pool, anyone can use it. I give permission to use what comes from me in advance. I do not give away what i want to keep for myself. I do not mind if someone uses my stuff, provided the originatorship is respected, acknowledged.
If someone uses my stuff without honouring my contribution (that is what i demand from the user), he learns what an ******** i can be and i won't tell him the inner diameter of a standard washer from then on and say so, shouting loud in his shop full of customers. reverendclark, should you read this, have your partner try this out if he dares. No, i am no offending you, i am offending him.
And now we are at the point: other designers have other restrictions, they may ask special permission on using their designs and require to get informed about particular use and count of use. This is their intellectual property hence their right. Hugh Dean keeps it that way, to get his AKSA schematic, you have to buy his kit and agree you do not give the schematic away. I do not like it (contradicting my philosophy) but i did respect it, his schematic (my sample) did never hit a Xerox copier's top glass plate.
It is his intellectual property, not mine, his philosophy rules, not mine.
To be specific, Hugh's schematic contains a lot of components specification, means, from the schematic you can learn Hugh's component choice and voicing. And this is a lot more that just knowing the textbook schematic, this is individual intellectual property.
If Scott Nixon's kit manual/schematic provides similar info, it is his sole intellectual property, if his PCB differs only by one trace shoved to a different location, compared to a public domain one, on display on the internet, it is his sole intellectual property and any impartial patent judge in this world will agree to that!
##/rant##
Jean-Paul,
from my words above you can judge yourself how few i agree with your remark to Fred concerning Scotts schematic.
The struggle with Remco must have blurred your vision, but to that later.
Methinks, those having the guts and having taken the enormous effort to stick their neck out with a layman-proof-to-build kit with reasonable price and outstanding price/sonics ratio should be protected by any means and we at diyAudio are providing that protection by any means. Without those kit designers, many of us would never make it to DIY, let's never forget that!
fedde,
any accuses you stole another man's design are completely injust, IMO.
i agree with planet10, you are doing the community a service. Keep on the good work.
There are some minor goofs like sticking out your neck by making assumptions on theoretical claims hard to backup. Let's assume a Nosoz simply sounds terrific, let's call that "gives great bang for the buck" without being too courageous in explaining why. BTW, i feel tempted to build one just to annoy Manfred Huber
... 🙂 read his steinmusic CDP desciption?
Ok,
to struggle:
For the record, no name calling has taken place violating formal rules. Methinks what happened was way way worse. We moderators cannot cover this by formal rules but it takes the peace out and involves innocent participants before you count to ten. Therefore i use such strong words, i am realling
and inteding to weed such out.
Jean-Paul and Ultranalog,
let's assume you both have tried out your concepts and are dead sure they work terrific okok,(Remco, haven't heard your stuff, but i have 2nd hand knowledge your digital plays in the league of Guido Tent's set-up ... champoins league, Manfred ranks Guido's setup considerably higher than his own one) and you both seem to be be rashly eager to assume the other one is yet another self-important dummy not knowing what he is talking about.
Jean-Paul defends fedde's thing and Remco claims it cannot work. Great! 😡
Haven't you both realized how dangerous this is at a forum like diyAudio where a real master hypothetically steps in (say mhuber, jcarr, etc...), says hypothetically hello, hypothetically wears that stupid Neophyte badge and just because of that he is assumed to be Goofy from the Disney comic. Wrong, this is a symptom, the real cause is lack of mutual respect, my mouth is fraying out from repeating and repeating it 😡
Or how shall i look at it?, seeing you both claiming the other's experimental data to be invalid, (juSt because they were gained on different fields, on the bench and sitting on the listening chair) a redundantly overfoaming lack of openmindedness? Take your pick folks, which sort of slap suits you more.
Remco,
you are worse than Jean-Paul in that lack-of-repect thing. And when fellow members try to calm you down, you do not repond, and when your opponent gives in just to have peace, you do not stop. You demonstrate a lack of mercy with the different/opposite POV that makes me shudder
and i feel pity for any future student exposed to this mix of admittedly superiour technical knowledge and intolerant attitude of Professor Remco. Just my current impression, feel free to improve, PLEASE!
Both,
i do not want see anyone of you continue posting in this thread. And you both better take a timeout to let your blood cool down, ok? Don't force me to enforce it.
All,
it happens that a harrassing appeal is made to the authorities and that the person complaining about being harrassed is the harrasser (or the worse of both). I have observed it often, i have suffered myself from it once; it did cost me an employment (my best one salary-wise). No wonder i am touchy with it.
When i took moderator duty, i have promised some things to myself, among them: not to let such happen if possible.
-------------
Bernhard
(diyAudio moderator)
i have notices of appeal from both plaintiff and accused in my inbox. I went thru the thead, i take charge. I'm not amused at all about what i read and there have several points to be adressed.
ok, lets process LIFO style,
Fred,
1st,
"noone else can hear for you"
2nd
you are dead right with your remarks on intellectual property.
3rd
i see now i have to persecute the thing you rubbed my nose into in private. Topic intellectual property.
##rant##
Anyone here probably knows that i am preaching free flow of knowledge, putting all knowledge into a pool, anyone can use it. I give permission to use what comes from me in advance. I do not give away what i want to keep for myself. I do not mind if someone uses my stuff, provided the originatorship is respected, acknowledged.
If someone uses my stuff without honouring my contribution (that is what i demand from the user), he learns what an ******** i can be and i won't tell him the inner diameter of a standard washer from then on and say so, shouting loud in his shop full of customers. reverendclark, should you read this, have your partner try this out if he dares. No, i am no offending you, i am offending him.
And now we are at the point: other designers have other restrictions, they may ask special permission on using their designs and require to get informed about particular use and count of use. This is their intellectual property hence their right. Hugh Dean keeps it that way, to get his AKSA schematic, you have to buy his kit and agree you do not give the schematic away. I do not like it (contradicting my philosophy) but i did respect it, his schematic (my sample) did never hit a Xerox copier's top glass plate.
It is his intellectual property, not mine, his philosophy rules, not mine.
To be specific, Hugh's schematic contains a lot of components specification, means, from the schematic you can learn Hugh's component choice and voicing. And this is a lot more that just knowing the textbook schematic, this is individual intellectual property.
If Scott Nixon's kit manual/schematic provides similar info, it is his sole intellectual property, if his PCB differs only by one trace shoved to a different location, compared to a public domain one, on display on the internet, it is his sole intellectual property and any impartial patent judge in this world will agree to that!
##/rant##
Jean-Paul,
from my words above you can judge yourself how few i agree with your remark to Fred concerning Scotts schematic.
The struggle with Remco must have blurred your vision, but to that later.
Methinks, those having the guts and having taken the enormous effort to stick their neck out with a layman-proof-to-build kit with reasonable price and outstanding price/sonics ratio should be protected by any means and we at diyAudio are providing that protection by any means. Without those kit designers, many of us would never make it to DIY, let's never forget that!
fedde,
any accuses you stole another man's design are completely injust, IMO.
i agree with planet10, you are doing the community a service. Keep on the good work.
There are some minor goofs like sticking out your neck by making assumptions on theoretical claims hard to backup. Let's assume a Nosoz simply sounds terrific, let's call that "gives great bang for the buck" without being too courageous in explaining why. BTW, i feel tempted to build one just to annoy Manfred Huber
... 🙂 read his steinmusic CDP desciption?What is probably not so prudent is refusing to honor the master and if i ever have smelled a master, Nelson Pass is one, Manfred Huber is one, Jocko is one, Scott Nixon is one (list being intentionally incomplete). You got your justified lumps from Fred for that and i could not observe he handed out any other lumps to you. Which you probably can consider as compliment. 🙂
Ok,
to struggle:
For the record, no name calling has taken place violating formal rules. Methinks what happened was way way worse. We moderators cannot cover this by formal rules but it takes the peace out and involves innocent participants before you count to ten. Therefore i use such strong words, i am realling
and inteding to weed such out.Jean-Paul and Ultranalog,
let's assume you both have tried out your concepts and are dead sure they work terrific okok,(Remco, haven't heard your stuff, but i have 2nd hand knowledge your digital plays in the league of Guido Tent's set-up ... champoins league, Manfred ranks Guido's setup considerably higher than his own one) and you both seem to be be rashly eager to assume the other one is yet another self-important dummy not knowing what he is talking about.
Jean-Paul defends fedde's thing and Remco claims it cannot work. Great! 😡
Haven't you both realized how dangerous this is at a forum like diyAudio where a real master hypothetically steps in (say mhuber, jcarr, etc...), says hypothetically hello, hypothetically wears that stupid Neophyte badge and just because of that he is assumed to be Goofy from the Disney comic. Wrong, this is a symptom, the real cause is lack of mutual respect, my mouth is fraying out from repeating and repeating it 😡
Or how shall i look at it?, seeing you both claiming the other's experimental data to be invalid, (juSt because they were gained on different fields, on the bench and sitting on the listening chair) a redundantly overfoaming lack of openmindedness? Take your pick folks, which sort of slap suits you more.
Remco,
you are worse than Jean-Paul in that lack-of-repect thing. And when fellow members try to calm you down, you do not repond, and when your opponent gives in just to have peace, you do not stop. You demonstrate a lack of mercy with the different/opposite POV that makes me shudder
and i feel pity for any future student exposed to this mix of admittedly superiour technical knowledge and intolerant attitude of Professor Remco. Just my current impression, feel free to improve, PLEASE!Both,
i do not want see anyone of you continue posting in this thread. And you both better take a timeout to let your blood cool down, ok? Don't force me to enforce it.
All,
it happens that a harrassing appeal is made to the authorities and that the person complaining about being harrassed is the harrasser (or the worse of both). I have observed it often, i have suffered myself from it once; it did cost me an employment (my best one salary-wise). No wonder i am touchy with it.
When i took moderator duty, i have promised some things to myself, among them: not to let such happen if possible.
-------------
Bernhard
(diyAudio moderator)
It's a pity that this discussion has gone this way. To have a good discussion is very important to share ideas. I agree that respect is very important during a discussion, especially given the fact this is 'only' a hobby for most us.
It is not that I do not have respect for Scott, on the contrary. I have only noted that his page is not very informative for people that want to build a non-os DAC. I just said that because that was the reason for me to make my page. I do not doubt that Scott offers good support for people that buy his DACs.
Maybe were some things that Jean-Paul said on the edge, though I do not feel it necessary that he is excluded from this topic. I had very positive e-mail contact with him about this discussion.
I hope that my upcoming gainclone amp page (will take some weeks...) will not result in a discussion like this ! (again quite a controversial design though)
And, thanks moderators for joining the discussion!
Peace ;-)
(I think it's time to add a peace sign to the icons !)
Fedde
It is not that I do not have respect for Scott, on the contrary. I have only noted that his page is not very informative for people that want to build a non-os DAC. I just said that because that was the reason for me to make my page. I do not doubt that Scott offers good support for people that buy his DACs.
Maybe were some things that Jean-Paul said on the edge, though I do not feel it necessary that he is excluded from this topic. I had very positive e-mail contact with him about this discussion.
I hope that my upcoming gainclone amp page (will take some weeks...) will not result in a discussion like this ! (again quite a controversial design though)
And, thanks moderators for joining the discussion!
Peace ;-)
(I think it's time to add a peace sign to the icons !)
Fedde
Peace it is!
To Fred -
Actually, I was thinking in a broader context and about my ex-wife - a person that has been reasonably successful in business but miserable in her personal life - primarily due to a continually negative and confrontational manner.
Also, it was in those circumstances that I learned how to deal with difficult negative situations in a non-attacking manner.
I had a good bit of practice that has become a useful tool in life and in business. Truly a learned art, not one that I was born with. I think it does come naturally (or a lot easier) to some peolple. I also got a wonderful son from that marriage.
Ken L
To Fred -
Actually, I was thinking in a broader context and about my ex-wife - a person that has been reasonably successful in business but miserable in her personal life - primarily due to a continually negative and confrontational manner.
Also, it was in those circumstances that I learned how to deal with difficult negative situations in a non-attacking manner.
I had a good bit of practice that has become a useful tool in life and in business. Truly a learned art, not one that I was born with. I think it does come naturally (or a lot easier) to some peolple. I also got a wonderful son from that marriage.
Ken L
fedde said:
A couple quick hacks:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
i like the 2nd one best.
dave
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