The transformer is indeed a custom design for us. My understanding is that the unit is quiet at the dealer and importer.
Hopefully this gets resolved as I know it is frustrating.
Hopefully this gets resolved as I know it is frustrating.
Hi, do the transformers have a 240V tap!?
I reread the thread but it is not mentioned that the amplifiers are silent at the dealer/importer!?
I reread the thread but it is not mentioned that the amplifiers are silent at the dealer/importer!?
@Mikerodrig27 - But ... please explain how putting the hifi circuit on a separate breaker would alleviate toroidal transformer hum, which is the critical point. This also assumes that what we typically describe a the toroid humming is what they're experiencing. It was suggested that a video / audio file would be helpful in diagnosing.
I can see ... potentially ... if ... other equipment / appliances were causing a disruption in AC ... maybe. However, as you and many others have stated, it would be very worthwhile to narrow that to the cause before proceeding.
I'm also curious what the "voltage regulator" that the electrician is coming to repair might be doing... could that be part of the issue? I'm not familiar with any country that uses voltage regulation as part of the mains supply, but I'd be curious to learn.
It's fun with speculation and for me to learn more. Hum chasing whether a ground / earth issue and/or a physical hum is a pain.
Either way... for @Andy Cine, whom I'll consider an "average" consumer. I still think that if other hifi gear that they're happy with doesn't exhibit these types of symptoms, that the gear should be returned. There are two units that did not work (for them). They may be flawless units, but there is NO WAY that anyone could convince me to rewire my house for a specific piece of gear. I know some go to great lengths. No judgement. With that said... I do have my gear on a separate breaker, mainly b/c it draws relatively a lot of current. I wanted to be sure I wouldn't pop breakers if someone plugged in the vacuum while I had the gear powered up. I also wanted it to be on a separate breaker from LED / Fluorescent bulbs. YMMV etc.
Always fun.
Edited to add - just seconds before.. you posted ahead noting that you did not know the unit was quiet at the dealer. 🙂 Either way, still love seeing your thought process, posts, and explanations. I always learn from you. Cheers.
I can see ... potentially ... if ... other equipment / appliances were causing a disruption in AC ... maybe. However, as you and many others have stated, it would be very worthwhile to narrow that to the cause before proceeding.
I'm also curious what the "voltage regulator" that the electrician is coming to repair might be doing... could that be part of the issue? I'm not familiar with any country that uses voltage regulation as part of the mains supply, but I'd be curious to learn.
It's fun with speculation and for me to learn more. Hum chasing whether a ground / earth issue and/or a physical hum is a pain.
Either way... for @Andy Cine, whom I'll consider an "average" consumer. I still think that if other hifi gear that they're happy with doesn't exhibit these types of symptoms, that the gear should be returned. There are two units that did not work (for them). They may be flawless units, but there is NO WAY that anyone could convince me to rewire my house for a specific piece of gear. I know some go to great lengths. No judgement. With that said... I do have my gear on a separate breaker, mainly b/c it draws relatively a lot of current. I wanted to be sure I wouldn't pop breakers if someone plugged in the vacuum while I had the gear powered up. I also wanted it to be on a separate breaker from LED / Fluorescent bulbs. YMMV etc.
Always fun.
Edited to add - just seconds before.. you posted ahead noting that you did not know the unit was quiet at the dealer. 🙂 Either way, still love seeing your thought process, posts, and explanations. I always learn from you. Cheers.
A separate breaker won’t make much of a difference with regards to noise from LED lighting. It is connected to the same rail (at least here it is). The breaker is not a filter.
I once had nasty pollution (I thought….) that was found on all groups in someones home. It turned out to be PowerLAN (= deliberate pollution) 🙂 It was only used on 2 wall sockets but spread like Covid.
A group connected to a different phase in case of 3 phase power in the home will make more of a difference.
BTW doesn’t it surprise us that we haven’t got much replies or feedback to our suggestions and that we haven’t seen a single picture? Literally 0. By a new
member that has just 1 thread: this one. That thought just came up. Who would adress to DIY people when having spent almost 18,000 Euro on amplifiers!? Fishy!? I mean: I send back sub 100 Euro devices without a thought when they perform unsatisfactory…
I once had nasty pollution (I thought….) that was found on all groups in someones home. It turned out to be PowerLAN (= deliberate pollution) 🙂 It was only used on 2 wall sockets but spread like Covid.
A group connected to a different phase in case of 3 phase power in the home will make more of a difference.
BTW doesn’t it surprise us that we haven’t got much replies or feedback to our suggestions and that we haven’t seen a single picture? Literally 0. By a new
member that has just 1 thread: this one. That thought just came up. Who would adress to DIY people when having spent almost 18,000 Euro on amplifiers!? Fishy!? I mean: I send back sub 100 Euro devices without a thought when they perform unsatisfactory…
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^ Great to know, thank you. An unwarranted reason on my part. I just got lucky that it's quiet. I have one big honkin' power strip on my test / build bench where everything from a magnifying lens with a fluorescent bulb to soldering irons to oscilloscopes and other nonsense are typically plugged in and powered on. If I test an amp with that fluorescent bulb on, and the amp is plugged into the same power bar... hummmmmmmmmmm! The "real" amps are on the separate breaker about 15' away. No hummmmm with the light on. I'll have to fiddle around to see if I can learn more. It's fascinating (to me).
Cheers.
Cheers.
To answer your question, I don't know... Sorry, I know that is not very exciting.
I didn't dig into why things hummed at all. I have had it happen at two houses that I lived at. Both times, the circuits had a lot of stuff on them. Dimmers, network equipment, washer etc. At the first house, I could actually hear the modem or something else making ticking sounds every 1/2 hour or so. So instead of putting on an aluminum foil hat, I decided to try the breaker trick as it was fairly simple to do in my case. I agree, though, it is fun to learn so if anyone has any insight, that would be cool.
I didn't dig into why things hummed at all. I have had it happen at two houses that I lived at. Both times, the circuits had a lot of stuff on them. Dimmers, network equipment, washer etc. At the first house, I could actually hear the modem or something else making ticking sounds every 1/2 hour or so. So instead of putting on an aluminum foil hat, I decided to try the breaker trick as it was fairly simple to do in my case. I agree, though, it is fun to learn so if anyone has any insight, that would be cool.
The story counts for 230V EU areas in general. I have no knowledge of 115V and 2 phase US systems.
It likely is more or less the same regarding separate groups. Separate groups and separate wiring only make a slight difference when stuff is connected to the same rail.
Of course a separate group for audio still is to be preferred. One with dedicated mains filtering for instance.
It likely is more or less the same regarding separate groups. Separate groups and separate wiring only make a slight difference when stuff is connected to the same rail.
Of course a separate group for audio still is to be preferred. One with dedicated mains filtering for instance.
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Hi Guys, why I find it difficult to return this INT-25 is a few reasons. I traded in my previous hi-fi to this dealer, I originally bought a cheaper Leema amp which arrived damaged [I'm a long way from my dealer], the replacement was also damaged, and the third one I never even bothered plugging in as there was what sounded like four or five items broken inside. I had to go through the hassle of providing photos, video, and sound recordings for all this. I felt terrible for the dealer. The fault was either the courier or the manufacturer. I told my dealer I would choose something else. After much research, the only alternative item they sold was Pass Labs. I then made a special order of the INT-25. My dealer had a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. If I'm not happy with the first choice amp, I could exchange it ONCE for another. This is what I did. One Pass turns up, and the Toroidal makes a disgusting noise. Ironically the damaged Leema amps were SILENT! Then I was sent a second Pass Labs amp. This, too, was noisy, but as it was slightly quieter than the previous one, I sent the first one back to the Distributor, and he tested it and thought it to be quiet. I made the mistake of not telling him that it would get louder if he left it to warm up. I was then sent a Multimeter and then a Hobotester, and by now, after four months of hell of being off work due to a hip injury, where to lift these heavy amps was a real difficulty, let alone get them to my brother's house for testing at a different location! I couldn't drive for three months. I still walk with a walking stick now, even though I'm getting better with all the physio/Hospital/doctor appointments and scans. I feel overwhelmed with a mixture of guilt that the dealer has gone through so much trouble/I'm at a point where I feel I'll be trading this Pass Labs in for something else in the future, but at the moment, I can't think of anything else at that price that would sound as good. Also I had to stretch myself to get the Pass as it was £2000 more than the Leema. Yes, I could go to my credit card company and seek their help. But having spent twenty years in Hi-Fi Retail [I'm now a train driver]: I don't like being a 'customer from Hell' even if it isn't my fault. The sad thing is that I wanted to play my Christian 'Jesus Music' whilst I was off work injured to calm the stress of an impending operation which I'm still terrified might happen if the physio doesn't fix my condition. One gets to a point where confusion sets in, and maybe I have gotten confused within this thread. I'm not technical at an electrical level. The regenerator does seem to have made the Pass quieter from my seating position. Still, I can't be sure, as the fan inside the regenerator is audible from my listening position and could be masking the toroidal noise. Re Wayne, I did not hear back from him directly. I stand by the reply I left to his kind comment on this thread. So another question I think I haven't answered is the Voltage Regulator someone here recommended: I thought might quieten the pass's toroidal noise to be constant rather than alternating in volume. As for those doubting, I'm a real person: here's a photo of me with my Jesus Music and Pass amp. Thanks, Guys. Love from the UK. Happy Easter.
PS. My dealer [Audio Emotion, Scotland] is offering that I return the Pass Labs amp to them for testing, at the other end of the UK from where I am. If you read my comment above that three amps were smashed on arrival you may understand that I'm reluctant to risk damaging this cosmetically perfect Pass amp.
Re: Mooly 91 - I live in Milton Keynes a City about 50 miles north of London. I believe it is just normal off-grid.
Fair enough, I thought you might be in Shetland or somewhere 😉
@Andy Cine
See if anyone from these forums who lives reasonably close to your place can check the quiescent current draw. If okay (and I think it will be okay because two identical amps performed the same, or almost the same, with a very similar amount of transformer buzz), you have mains power issues... most likely.
See if anyone from these forums who lives reasonably close to your place can check the quiescent current draw. If okay (and I think it will be okay because two identical amps performed the same, or almost the same, with a very similar amount of transformer buzz), you have mains power issues... most likely.
What a story. I have seen movies with weaker plots 🙂 Good luck with the health issues, those are more important than anything else.
Andy - The story is appreciated. I hope you'll perhaps hang out and do some DIY. It's nice to remember that we're ALL real people behind the screens. So are the folks at your dealer. Finding a common agreement is important.
What you've seen is (IMO) a bunch of folks desperately trying to help you amid our own conversations. I know I get easily sidetracked. 🙂
The trick is... we don't have enough information to be definitive. Which, for people like me, drives us mad. So, I poke, prod, cajole, and harass for more information to 'solve the problem'. My wife, in particular, loves this methodology <sarc>.
First - I hope you get your dream system fully functioning and working.
Second - I hope it is as simple and as painless as is practical.
One or multiple things in this list is likely to be true. There are likely many other things to add to the list -
Again... you want to be fair to a dealer that has treated you well.
You've been given a number of suggestions re: how to 'help us help you' through moving the gear around a bit and providing the outcomes here. As yet, you've typed a lot, but I haven't seen that you've done what's suggested. I hope your health improves, of course. These things are not light-weights. Can you find someone to help you, if you're not capable?
My advice...
Send the amp back. I know you don't want to, but ... they should take it back (at least on exchange.) The dealer is clearly trying to help, but ...
OR at your own expense, hire and/or convince someone that "knows their stuff" to come out and properly diagnose and repair. All of it is speculative to some extent until more information is available. I know I can't help without more information. Others may be able to do more.
Wishing you the best
What you've seen is (IMO) a bunch of folks desperately trying to help you amid our own conversations. I know I get easily sidetracked. 🙂
The trick is... we don't have enough information to be definitive. Which, for people like me, drives us mad. So, I poke, prod, cajole, and harass for more information to 'solve the problem'. My wife, in particular, loves this methodology <sarc>.
First - I hope you get your dream system fully functioning and working.
Second - I hope it is as simple and as painless as is practical.
One or multiple things in this list is likely to be true. There are likely many other things to add to the list -
- The gear is defective as intended against the specifications set by the manufacturer. This seems unlikely.
- The gear is 'sensitive' to 'something' mains related as-delivered to your home from the power company.
- That 'something' is within the normal tolerances of your area's mains supply. It could be mains voltage fluctuations, 'DC in the mains', non-perfect AC waveform etc. etc. etc. This is possible / even probable. This comes down to how much money and effort you want to put into the solution.
- That 'something' is NOT within the normal tolerances of your area's mains supply. See above, but ... that's possibly harder to solve.
- The gear is 'sensitive' to 'something' mains related caused by another 'thing' within your own home and possibly on the same breaker circuit.
- Other non-audio stuff - appliances, lights, laser printers (I had a goofy issue with a printer) etc.
- Other audio stuff - the regenerator, voltage regulator etc. etc.
- The gear is 'sensitive' to 'something' non-mains related.
- EMI / RFI
- Some other interference / signaling.
Again... you want to be fair to a dealer that has treated you well.
You've been given a number of suggestions re: how to 'help us help you' through moving the gear around a bit and providing the outcomes here. As yet, you've typed a lot, but I haven't seen that you've done what's suggested. I hope your health improves, of course. These things are not light-weights. Can you find someone to help you, if you're not capable?
My advice...
Send the amp back. I know you don't want to, but ... they should take it back (at least on exchange.) The dealer is clearly trying to help, but ...
OR at your own expense, hire and/or convince someone that "knows their stuff" to come out and properly diagnose and repair. All of it is speculative to some extent until more information is available. I know I can't help without more information. Others may be able to do more.
Wishing you the best
Hi, because the thread is rather long you may have missed that I did mention that I had disconnected all other appliances in the house, bought a DC Blocker, a mains conditioner, tried the amp in two different outlets [maybe I forgot to mention that one], tried different mains leads including screened and non screened, I tried three different CD players [just in case], I tried different ways of supporting the amp too, and just got worn down with it all. I am now considering reaching out to my credit card company.