Amplifiers are wired for 240V? Do they have 230 and 240V taps?
And... are you sure it are the toroids? The devices have 2 transformers.
That is all you can check besides mains voltage. Then it is up to the seller to solve the issue within the warranty period. Please don't open the devices!
And... are you sure it are the toroids? The devices have 2 transformers.
That is all you can check besides mains voltage. Then it is up to the seller to solve the issue within the warranty period. Please don't open the devices!
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Noise is definitely coming from Transformer. My dealer [Audio Emotion, Scotland] is sending me a mains regenerator. I hope that doesn't just create a new problem. We'll see.
It’s seem unlikely to me that the problem is your main outlet since all your other equipment fonction correctly when plugged into the same outlet. Why are they going through tall those steps instead of having a qualified tech have a look at the amp seems weird to me. The dealer is far from you?
I wonder if it really is a regenerator or just a "conditioner". A real regenerator is heavy and expensive "stuff". From 15 kg and up to 60 kg or more (based on large class A/B amp technique).
There are some cheaper switched mode based used as "ups" for computer systems. If it is really a regenerator I guess it is a switched mode based cheap one.
You have to send all the "stuff" back again? ......or does the dealer hope you will buy it? 🙂
If the dealer is not that far away I would have showed him the problem face to face.
There are some cheaper switched mode based used as "ups" for computer systems. If it is really a regenerator I guess it is a switched mode based cheap one.
You have to send all the "stuff" back again? ......or does the dealer hope you will buy it? 🙂
If the dealer is not that far away I would have showed him the problem face to face.
I was thinking the same thing. Certainly not a STROMTANK.
It does sound like lots of roundabout about nothing. I would think PASS LABS in conjunction with said dealer would have a replacement piece on the way so Mr. Cine could bring in the funny one and take home something to listen to. No mention has been made about how far apart the two reside.
I know there are NO dealers I am aware of I would trust poking aorund the innards of an expensiver amplifier. The days of dealers having a competent tech on staff are decades gone.
Best of luck to you, Mr. Cine.
One of the best reaons of going DIY is knowing one's gerar and being able to fix it themselves.
It does sound like lots of roundabout about nothing. I would think PASS LABS in conjunction with said dealer would have a replacement piece on the way so Mr. Cine could bring in the funny one and take home something to listen to. No mention has been made about how far apart the two reside.
I know there are NO dealers I am aware of I would trust poking aorund the innards of an expensiver amplifier. The days of dealers having a competent tech on staff are decades gone.
Best of luck to you, Mr. Cine.
One of the best reaons of going DIY is knowing one's gerar and being able to fix it themselves.
Sadly my dealer is at the other end of the country. They say that the readings of my mains voltage results "prove that the readings are higher than the Pass Labs is designed to work with, so we are going to send you a Power Inspired Regenerator to assist with resolving this problem". I don't have much confidence at all that this 'regenerator' will help. I'm hoping that this sorry saga may help others to check their mains voltage to see if amps they want to buy are up to the task.
You could try an isolation transformer AVR. This is just an example. There are other power versions.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products...MIzb2rraqO_gIVQsqUCR2vTwRKEAQYBSABEgI_ovD_BwE
https://www.digikey.com/en/products...MIzb2rraqO_gIVQsqUCR2vTwRKEAQYBSABEgI_ovD_BwE
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It is BS. They avoid liability.
The DMM said 239..241V which is normal mains voltage in your country. Besides that any mainland Europe device made for 230V 50Hz should be able to withstand +10% higher mains voltage than 230V.
I don’t know the specific device but sometimes devices have a 240V tap besides the “normal” 230V tap. You could ask this the Pass company directly to avoid time loss. Not asking = not knowing.
If the device is designed for both 230/240V and has no separate 240V tap then the transformers likely have an hum issue (not unusual with toroids). Toroids can be a real pain with hum and it depends on a few factors but some by some brands may be more affected than others. Some hum with just a slight DC component on the mains voltage and
some don’t blink an eye in the same circumstances. In that case only having them replaced will make you a satisfied customer I guess.
*In case of rare issues with high harmonic distortion of the mains voltage one would need to analyse mains voltage. Test equipment is expensive and so is the guy operating it. I only have done such in extreme industrial cases. Often rectifiers for high currents and/or heavy SMPS without real load are a cause. A possibility when you are located near heavy industries.
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A PSU I use for an amp built is specified like this:
Think this is "standard" to design after to ensure equipment will work as it should as mains can be -+10% of nominel voltage.
Now this is a SMPS and it will "just" regulate the output so output voltage is constant.
Your amp will probably draw some more current so tranformer can be more prone to hum........
In another project many years back I designed a PSU for an amp built. Then discovered that my PSU caps was just specified a bit to low (63V). Then I got a 1000 VA isolation transformer with two outputs. Nominel 230 VAC and a lower about 200 VAC. In idle they are a bit higher which has to be taken into account.
So if it is really a mains "to high voltage" problem then a custom isolation transformer could be a solution.
Think this is "standard" to design after to ensure equipment will work as it should as mains can be -+10% of nominel voltage.
Now this is a SMPS and it will "just" regulate the output so output voltage is constant.
Your amp will probably draw some more current so tranformer can be more prone to hum........
In another project many years back I designed a PSU for an amp built. Then discovered that my PSU caps was just specified a bit to low (63V). Then I got a 1000 VA isolation transformer with two outputs. Nominel 230 VAC and a lower about 200 VAC. In idle they are a bit higher which has to be taken into account.
So if it is really a mains "to high voltage" problem then a custom isolation transformer could be a solution.
SMPS are way less sensitive to deviations of nominal voltage. They also don’t hum but give nice other surprises 🙂
Transformers are connected directly to mains voltage and need to have primary windings wound for the local mains voltage +/- a certain %. A change of mains voltage is directly related to a change in output voltage as there is no regulation (in general).
If an isolation transformer not being 1:1 is needed then one better returns the devices. It very likely are the toroids that are to blame. If so they will also hum with let’s say 220V. It will then be an equipment issue which will eventually cost the dealer, distributor and the manufacturer time and money. The easiest is to blame the customer and or local circumstances.
Transformers are connected directly to mains voltage and need to have primary windings wound for the local mains voltage +/- a certain %. A change of mains voltage is directly related to a change in output voltage as there is no regulation (in general).
If an isolation transformer not being 1:1 is needed then one better returns the devices. It very likely are the toroids that are to blame. If so they will also hum with let’s say 220V. It will then be an equipment issue which will eventually cost the dealer, distributor and the manufacturer time and money. The easiest is to blame the customer and or local circumstances.
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Has anyone actually enquired of the manufacturer as to whether the amp is specified for UK mains which on paper is 230 volts +10/-6%
When the change or 'harmonisation' of voltages in Western Europe occurred in the 90's there were no infrastructure changes in the UK, just a rehash on paper of the tolerances. Voltages can be as high as 253 volts AC and as low as 216 volts AC.
My own voltages are often in the 243 volt region with light loading.
The purity of the supply (how close to a sine it is) plays a massive part in how noisy or growly a big toroid may be and that can vary at certain times of the day. Some of the off the shelf Avel Lindberg toroids (their top range) do say they have 115/230/240 volt primaries but off course this amp may use a totally custom design.
When the change or 'harmonisation' of voltages in Western Europe occurred in the 90's there were no infrastructure changes in the UK, just a rehash on paper of the tolerances. Voltages can be as high as 253 volts AC and as low as 216 volts AC.
My own voltages are often in the 243 volt region with light loading.
The purity of the supply (how close to a sine it is) plays a massive part in how noisy or growly a big toroid may be and that can vary at certain times of the day. Some of the off the shelf Avel Lindberg toroids (their top range) do say they have 115/230/240 volt primaries but off course this amp may use a totally custom design.
There is no eternal switch for a "240" tap. My mains is reading between 238v and 247v, depending on the measurement device and reading time. Am I being unreasonable to expect an amp sold for UK use to be able to work within those parameters? If Pass Labs Amps don't work outside of a perfectly stable 240v: shouldn't they come with a warning at the point of sale? Pass Labs should have told the UK Distributer, Stephen, at Select Audio to warn potential customers. It's not good customer relations to torture an end user like this.
My Pass Labs INT-25 is an official UK product. I guess only Wayne could tell us if the Toroidal Transformer is a custom design or an Avel Lindberg. Good question.
Maybe it has internal taps as often found. It would help if you could reply to suggestions. Maybe numbering suggestions helps otherwise many loose time on your issue and/or things are suggested twice etc. Inefficient. Dialog/exchange with numbered points could work better.
Your post #54 nails it 100%. Won’t make you a popular guy here though 😉
Your post #54 nails it 100%. Won’t make you a popular guy here though 😉
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I don't suspect the voltages are the issue. You can try the regenerator and see what happens. Maybe there is something funky going on with the power like DC or something else going on. But I am not confident in that either. You said that this is the 2nd unit that has had an issue? It could be that you got the same unit back or both units shared a rough trip overseas.
These Pass Amps are really really tough. That is why Pass Labs can get away with going overboard with their customer service. It is hard to break them. everything is engineered to be as simple and reliable as possible. Tough over-spec'ed parts etc.
Would you be willing to share pictures of your setup? Also, have you tried plugging the amp into different circuits around the house? I know it is heavy and awkward to move around like that.
I had a slight hum (through the speakers and the transformer) on a couple of amps and moved a couple of cables around in my breaker box to put the amp's plug circuit on its own breaker. Everything has been super quiet after that. Before it was sharing a circuit with my network equipment, a washer and a couple of other noisy items. Things seem cleaner and more detailed sounding but that could just be a placebo effect (I'll pretend it isn't 🙂 )
These Pass Amps are really really tough. That is why Pass Labs can get away with going overboard with their customer service. It is hard to break them. everything is engineered to be as simple and reliable as possible. Tough over-spec'ed parts etc.
Would you be willing to share pictures of your setup? Also, have you tried plugging the amp into different circuits around the house? I know it is heavy and awkward to move around like that.
I had a slight hum (through the speakers and the transformer) on a couple of amps and moved a couple of cables around in my breaker box to put the amp's plug circuit on its own breaker. Everything has been super quiet after that. Before it was sharing a circuit with my network equipment, a washer and a couple of other noisy items. Things seem cleaner and more detailed sounding but that could just be a placebo effect (I'll pretend it isn't 🙂 )
That post triggered questions:
1: did you already try the amplifiers with all other stuff plugged out of the wall sockets!? Just to exclude things.
2: please ask the question if the transformers have 240V internal taps.
3: also ask if the hum may be caused by the use of the 230V tap and the device connected to 240V.
4: asking the manufacturer for assistance in this matter would not hurt either.
Some here may remember the effect mums hair dryer had on their audio. Always in position 1.
1: did you already try the amplifiers with all other stuff plugged out of the wall sockets!? Just to exclude things.
2: please ask the question if the transformers have 240V internal taps.
3: also ask if the hum may be caused by the use of the 230V tap and the device connected to 240V.
4: asking the manufacturer for assistance in this matter would not hurt either.
Some here may remember the effect mums hair dryer had on their audio. Always in position 1.
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it is strictly legal issue, not technical one
Manufacturer is responsible to Dealer, Dealer is responsible to Customer
Some here are jumping on every opportunity to bash not only FW or PL but also Papa's Mindless Flock (each and every flock is mindless, by default) , but that's OK, already seen, becomes just illustration of character of Basher
Now, distractions as these are not helping OP in solving his issue
Is that initial responsibility of PL to ship flawless product ........ yes, 158%
Drek happens all the time......... yes; not excuse, just stating a fact
But, from my limited knowledge of all things legal, OP is having a case against Dealer, not PL
Let's just hope they will solve this issue eventually, without need for legal actions
Again, all our technical expertise is going to be useful only from moment if/when OP decide to solve hum/buzz issues with own hands and tools
For clarity of mind - let's just imagine that amp in case is Dish-washer; think and act same as you bought Dish-washer and it strted acting funny in Warranty; claim your rights and don't let them fooling you with Gizmos .......... everyone knows what properly functioning dish-washer is, and it must work at regular mains, +/10%
Manufacturer is responsible to Dealer, Dealer is responsible to Customer
Some here are jumping on every opportunity to bash not only FW or PL but also Papa's Mindless Flock (each and every flock is mindless, by default) , but that's OK, already seen, becomes just illustration of character of Basher
Now, distractions as these are not helping OP in solving his issue
Is that initial responsibility of PL to ship flawless product ........ yes, 158%
Drek happens all the time......... yes; not excuse, just stating a fact
But, from my limited knowledge of all things legal, OP is having a case against Dealer, not PL
Let's just hope they will solve this issue eventually, without need for legal actions
Again, all our technical expertise is going to be useful only from moment if/when OP decide to solve hum/buzz issues with own hands and tools
For clarity of mind - let's just imagine that amp in case is Dish-washer; think and act same as you bought Dish-washer and it strted acting funny in Warranty; claim your rights and don't let them fooling you with Gizmos .......... everyone knows what properly functioning dish-washer is, and it must work at regular mains, +/10%