Single-ended is a de-facto consumer standard. Millions of home audio gear are single-ended, why should turntables be wired differently?
And plenty are wired using STP terminated in RCA. 5 pin tonearm connector used in millions of arms is balanced as is the tonearm wire.
Balanced is important for carrying long telephone lines through factory districts or over electric railroads.
The phono interconnect is SHORT (because capacitance) and not in a high-hum neighborhood (because the cart coils would pick up hum).
And possible hiss leverage. Especially with tubes. One tube is 2uV hiss. Two tubes is 3uV hiss. It takes four tubes to get balanced hiss as low as unbalanced hiss.
And as always CO$T. Extra tubes. Strange high-cost connectors. Many-wire cables.
The bond-strap is a non-issue. If not wanted it can be slid off. If everybody wanted balanced they would stop putting the strap on.
You have to come to a strange place, like DIYAudio, to find any real interest in balanced phono. There IS a huge thread here, spanning dozens of opinions in hundreds of posts.
The phono interconnect is SHORT (because capacitance) and not in a high-hum neighborhood (because the cart coils would pick up hum).
And possible hiss leverage. Especially with tubes. One tube is 2uV hiss. Two tubes is 3uV hiss. It takes four tubes to get balanced hiss as low as unbalanced hiss.
And as always CO$T. Extra tubes. Strange high-cost connectors. Many-wire cables.
The bond-strap is a non-issue. If not wanted it can be slid off. If everybody wanted balanced they would stop putting the strap on.
You have to come to a strange place, like DIYAudio, to find any real interest in balanced phono. There IS a huge thread here, spanning dozens of opinions in hundreds of posts.
For decades, the unbalanced/traditional style of phono connections were "the way it was done."
And through all those years it was accepted, it was reliable, and satisfying to the masses.
And life was fine.......
No one nitpicked over how it was done, or what other options were available, no one questioned things....
Everyone just enjoyed the music!
But today..... TODAY?
Ya got a plethora of doubters and nitpickers worried about this and that.... making others crazy too.
Litz wires, Blu-Tac, shielding mods, damping fluids and stuffing anti-resonance crap up the tonearms....
But I digress.
And through all those years it was accepted, it was reliable, and satisfying to the masses.
And life was fine.......
No one nitpicked over how it was done, or what other options were available, no one questioned things....
Everyone just enjoyed the music!
But today..... TODAY?
Ya got a plethora of doubters and nitpickers worried about this and that.... making others crazy too.
Litz wires, Blu-Tac, shielding mods, damping fluids and stuffing anti-resonance crap up the tonearms....
But I digress.
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I think this is really the wrong forum for you. You keep misreading the strapline on this site. Note the complete lack of 'place for grumpy old gits to moan'?
I can show graphs of the effect of a balanced phono input AND of tonearm damping. You know measurements...
I can show graphs of the effect of a balanced phono input AND of tonearm damping. You know measurements...
Not a comfortably easy task. Probably a sharp knife with patience ?
Newbie post :
Dont know how balanced connection work. But I guess then one will have to solder the cut cartridge shield lug with wire or tonearm metal body ? That would require soldering iron in close proximity with cartrige pins/body.
regards.
Attachments
Endearing names aside, are you implying that one's opinions are not of importance?
That because one doesn't "buy into" all the hype they're seen as outcast weirdos?
As far as measurements, indeed sensitive testing devices like O'scopes and such can detect tiny, minute "differences", far beyond what the human ear can detect, or even care about.
I'm not talking about supersonic oscillations happening in amps and the like, those things can surely be rectified.
I'm pointing out audio frequencies what human hearing is sensitive to.
I know you call yourself "old" but so am I, and most of the things you mentioned are not new. SME arms shipped with troughs for damping fluid 50 years ago or more. Litz wires are ancient. Anti-resonance treatments have been around forever, at least since the 1970s when I became aware of them. I really don't understand your point.
Taming deficiencies in record-playing equipment by implementing all those "fixes" only shows that past technology and design was lacking in such areas.
Crutches, or "band-aids" they were, for lack of a better word.
However, in my experience, being a long-time servicer, the peak of turntable design and quality appeared in the 1960's up until the early 1980's.
United Audio/Dual comes to mind, among others.
Even today, those machines are coveted and adored by people who were "in the know" about good solid quality.
As the CD took over as a music source, the lowly platter machines began to suffer in quality, and with the current resergence over the past decade, that unremarkable quality took over again.
It's difficult to find much today that equals that golden era technology, that's why as I said, people gravitate to the "good ole machines" like a Dual 1229, 701, or a Technics 1200.
But the "band aid" allure continues to prey on the masses these days, party of hype, and partly due to the crappy current designs.
It's like current manufacturers simply don't want to build "flaw-free" products anymore.
Dual never offered upgrades to their products, unlike today's brands like Rega, among others...
Because Dual didn't need or offer anything to make it "better".
Yet that grasp on modding and upgrading remains today, and one has to understand why....
Marketing.... sell it with flaws, then lure them back with upgrades.
Keep that money flowing in, brainwash them with improvements, because they already paid for junk.
Sad.
I am still waiting to see some evidence that 'traditional' phono cartridges are unbalanced. The presence of an earth strap does not prove the point.
You are also a
(like me) and you are also moaning 😛
Tons of us grumpy old goats in this Forum, mainly because the masses couldn´t care less about Audio (they just listen through cheap phones program horribly processed every way imaginable coming from 3.7V powered cellphones) and kids are more into games or digitized social interaction, so if we want to interact with somebody who actually cares about we like, we must come here, only game in town.
Sadly also a magnet for people with weird ideas or simply plain weird people, so lively discussions are almost guaranteed.
Why complain about the main Forum activity? 😀
And thank you JMFahey.....
It brings to mind an old saying...
"It takes one, to know one" 😀
Let me try and summarize this discussion so far and provide my feedback. Feel free to correct/disagree/give-up-in-disgust. 😀
- "balanced" is an overused term. phono inputs are not really balanced in the electrical sense because they lack a reference ground. instead they float and because of this you cannot assure that Vn = -(Vp).
- yes, phono level inputs can be treated as as "balanced" when designing/implementing a phono stage, but a more concise statement would be that front end would be implemented as a difference amplifier (which does not require the symmetry that a true balanced input would provide). some people have already mentioned that their input stages are designed this way. the lack of a common return posses some challenges that need to be addressed in the circuit but it's not an impossible task. this lack of common also makes the use of XLR connectors problematic, given that the X part of XLR is missing.
- while you can go to all the trouble of implementing a differential front end the next question would be what do you gain (sic) by doing so? as pointed out earlier, hum and other sources of noise picked up by the coil/cartridge are not necessarily diminished by this approach. if you have addressed the other critical issues like proper shielding of the leads from cartridge to preamp, elimination of ground loops, etc. then a differential front end doesn't really buy you anything beyond what a good single ended input stage can already deliver.
- remember that the basic S/N ratio coming out of the cartridge is around 70-someodd dB which is well within the capabilities of modern quiet op-amp (or discrete design) SE circuits.
regarding grumpy old men and general curmudgeonly behavior: I cannot claim membership in that club not having quite reached the age of retirement yet. I am a child of the 70's, not the 60's. stay tuned - I'll let you know when I arrive. 😀
for the most part audio today is a consumable/disposable commodity. there is really no incentive for manufactures to make durable goods anymore. take AV receivers as an example. in my house they seem to last an average of 2.5 years before suffering terminal failure. on the other end of the spectrum, upstairs I have.a pair of 40 year old Heathkit amps which are still going strong. but that's okay, I fully acknowledge that I am not your standard audio consumer.
happy new year all!
-b
- "balanced" is an overused term. phono inputs are not really balanced in the electrical sense because they lack a reference ground. instead they float and because of this you cannot assure that Vn = -(Vp).
- yes, phono level inputs can be treated as as "balanced" when designing/implementing a phono stage, but a more concise statement would be that front end would be implemented as a difference amplifier (which does not require the symmetry that a true balanced input would provide). some people have already mentioned that their input stages are designed this way. the lack of a common return posses some challenges that need to be addressed in the circuit but it's not an impossible task. this lack of common also makes the use of XLR connectors problematic, given that the X part of XLR is missing.
- while you can go to all the trouble of implementing a differential front end the next question would be what do you gain (sic) by doing so? as pointed out earlier, hum and other sources of noise picked up by the coil/cartridge are not necessarily diminished by this approach. if you have addressed the other critical issues like proper shielding of the leads from cartridge to preamp, elimination of ground loops, etc. then a differential front end doesn't really buy you anything beyond what a good single ended input stage can already deliver.
- remember that the basic S/N ratio coming out of the cartridge is around 70-someodd dB which is well within the capabilities of modern quiet op-amp (or discrete design) SE circuits.
regarding grumpy old men and general curmudgeonly behavior: I cannot claim membership in that club not having quite reached the age of retirement yet. I am a child of the 70's, not the 60's. stay tuned - I'll let you know when I arrive. 😀
for the most part audio today is a consumable/disposable commodity. there is really no incentive for manufactures to make durable goods anymore. take AV receivers as an example. in my house they seem to last an average of 2.5 years before suffering terminal failure. on the other end of the spectrum, upstairs I have.a pair of 40 year old Heathkit amps which are still going strong. but that's okay, I fully acknowledge that I am not your standard audio consumer.
happy new year all!
-b
At a ripe old 67, I'm not a typical consumer either.
In reality, I never was.
Even when I was in my 20's, I enjoyed being "different" from the crowd.
I believe in originality of one's soul, not conformity to fads "just because".
Like DNA, no one's got mine, only me.
Now, back to our regular programming....
In reality, I never was.
Even when I was in my 20's, I enjoyed being "different" from the crowd.
I believe in originality of one's soul, not conformity to fads "just because".
Like DNA, no one's got mine, only me.
Now, back to our regular programming....
Maybe diminishing return might be a reason to keep the KISS attitude. Is there going to be a noticeable increase in performance considering turntables are prone to noise as a result of tone arm dampening being insignificant, noise from bearings, resonance from the platter and I could keep the list going. There is a reason to balance say a microphone line. Whereas a short wire from a turntable is going to be easier to possibly tame with simple management such as keeping it away from the motor or implementing a power supply that is enclosed in another box.
Ford motor company saved approximately .78 a vehicle by doing away with the wing vent in their vehicles in the late 60's and in the process forced the general public to purchase the air conditioning package which boosted their profits.
One needs to consider the fact that profit motivates companies to manufacture the way they do and provide as little as possible in order to maintain their expected profit margin. Not having seen/listened to a really good turntable with a balanced setup I guess I have to question its ability to make a marked significance.
To the Wiseoldtech.... I think we are all different and its the manor in which we are different that possibly distinguishes us from the rest. I'm also 67 and never satisfied with what I purchase but somewhat resigned to the fact that I probably cannot change too much or even make a small impact.
Ford motor company saved approximately .78 a vehicle by doing away with the wing vent in their vehicles in the late 60's and in the process forced the general public to purchase the air conditioning package which boosted their profits.
One needs to consider the fact that profit motivates companies to manufacture the way they do and provide as little as possible in order to maintain their expected profit margin. Not having seen/listened to a really good turntable with a balanced setup I guess I have to question its ability to make a marked significance.
To the Wiseoldtech.... I think we are all different and its the manor in which we are different that possibly distinguishes us from the rest. I'm also 67 and never satisfied with what I purchase but somewhat resigned to the fact that I probably cannot change too much or even make a small impact.
From the beginning of time, turntables were designed with unbalanced/shielded cables, cartridges were manufactured with that in mind as well.
And so was their inputs to the amplifiers used for them.
And it was just fine.
There was and is no reasons to change or mod anything.
As for Burnedfingers satisfaction towards things, I also sometimes find that "de-chinese-ing" a product to secure better performance or durability is worth the effort.
Re-designing a specific weak part that I deem potentially troublesome, or of poor design due to shortcuts is sometimes fun, and enhances my peace of mind.
I just don't like spending money on something, and having to purchase another because of the above issues.
Having wondered about the topic myself for a long time (about balanced, not XLR), i have followed this thread and i am wondering no longer.
Btw, in Germany once upon a time turntables did use 5 pin DIN connectors which were balanced stereo. And lower level.
But what I am still wondering, is there a sound reason why there are not many more turntables with built-in preamps? Surely a line-level signal has relatively lower noise pickup?
Btw, in Germany once upon a time turntables did use 5 pin DIN connectors which were balanced stereo. And lower level.
But what I am still wondering, is there a sound reason why there are not many more turntables with built-in preamps? Surely a line-level signal has relatively lower noise pickup?
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Those 5 pin DIN plugs were not really a balanced design.
You had hot left, ground left, hot right, ground right, chassis ground.
As for installed RIAA preamps, they're not needed when integrated amps had their own already, which was the normal design of stereo components for decades.
The current crop of some turntables have them because of the lack of built-in RIAA preamps in current equipment, basically because CD and HT came on the scene. (and was a cost/design cutting measure)
Which now, due to the "vinyl surge" has made amp manufacturers start adding them again.
Both my tonearms are silicon damped and my platters do not resonate and my bearings are quiet. But I agree that vinyl is a turd and all we are doing is trying to polish that turd. But this is a DIY site for hobbyists and if someone wants to build their phono stage to give a 10dB drop in noise pickup, however inaudible who are we to stop them?
They are balanced by definition. Each leg has the same impedance and they are not connected to ground.