Hi, I'm Jacob. I've been lurking this forum for a while and decided to register because I was planning to build a speaker.
( I will try to keep my thread as short as possible but I try to cover as much information about what I need in order to get some relevant advice. )
I currently have 2 fairly large cheap full range speakers in a closed box that don't quite live up the performance that I expect from a good speaker system. I contemplated buying studio monitors for a while now because I've got my studio setup here but its sort of a multi functional purpose desk really, I listen to music, play games and compose music all in fairly close proximity to the speaker (less than 2 meter) so I don't need floor standing living room filling speakers. However I do want to experiment with amplifiers and I don't want to need a separate subwoofer for a good bass response under my desk so after some searching on madisound I found this design:
https://www.madisound.com/pdf/fostexcabs/ft207d_fw167_2way.pdf
Its a 2 way speaker design by fostex, a bit smaller than my current setup so its gonna fit just fine. All I want to know is, do you think this is decent value for the buck ?. If not, what should I get ? My aim is at around 500 euro (maybe more or less) but money is just a guideline anyway, so not including the mdf and the tools to make an enclosure because I have that laying around.
I usually listen to music at fairly low volume levels, so no foundation shaking sound waves coming from my room, of course I need sufficient power but not a party speaker, so its for my own enjoyment and not my neighbors. Also I need a fairly versatile speaker system because I listen to all sorts of music, from the heaviest of progressive rock to chopin's piano sonata's. I'm hoping that by acquiring a multi way system the tweeter will accentuate the cymbals on drum kits better, that's always been an issue for me with my current system but that's one of many reasons for me.
( I will try to keep my thread as short as possible but I try to cover as much information about what I need in order to get some relevant advice. )
I currently have 2 fairly large cheap full range speakers in a closed box that don't quite live up the performance that I expect from a good speaker system. I contemplated buying studio monitors for a while now because I've got my studio setup here but its sort of a multi functional purpose desk really, I listen to music, play games and compose music all in fairly close proximity to the speaker (less than 2 meter) so I don't need floor standing living room filling speakers. However I do want to experiment with amplifiers and I don't want to need a separate subwoofer for a good bass response under my desk so after some searching on madisound I found this design:
https://www.madisound.com/pdf/fostexcabs/ft207d_fw167_2way.pdf
Its a 2 way speaker design by fostex, a bit smaller than my current setup so its gonna fit just fine. All I want to know is, do you think this is decent value for the buck ?. If not, what should I get ? My aim is at around 500 euro (maybe more or less) but money is just a guideline anyway, so not including the mdf and the tools to make an enclosure because I have that laying around.
I usually listen to music at fairly low volume levels, so no foundation shaking sound waves coming from my room, of course I need sufficient power but not a party speaker, so its for my own enjoyment and not my neighbors. Also I need a fairly versatile speaker system because I listen to all sorts of music, from the heaviest of progressive rock to chopin's piano sonata's. I'm hoping that by acquiring a multi way system the tweeter will accentuate the cymbals on drum kits better, that's always been an issue for me with my current system but that's one of many reasons for me.
Oh, I forgot to include some details. I'm not sure about crossover design, I mean I do know the basic concepts of inductors, resistors etc but there is such a huge difference in price for the components, especially the capacitors show a significant difference from about 5 to an astonishing 300 dollars :O!.
Also I'll supply the links to the parts, I will not be buying them from madisound though:
FT207D tweeter with a huge shielded magnet, lol:
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1265
And this is the woofer, FW167, 6.5 inch:
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1267
A good word of advice is much appreciated!
Also I'll supply the links to the parts, I will not be buying them from madisound though:
FT207D tweeter with a huge shielded magnet, lol:
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1265
And this is the woofer, FW167, 6.5 inch:
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1267
A good word of advice is much appreciated!
Hi,
There is a lot of choice out there and some of them will be far better
value than the Fostex parts and be far better developed superior designs.
e.g. :
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=8806
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - Idunn
That Fostex bass/mid is a joke at the price, Xmax = 1.5mm peak is dreadful.
The tweeter doesn't look that much better either, both poor choices.
The Idunn does seem very suitable, a far better choice.
rgds, sreten.
undefinition (see FAQs)
Zaph|Audio
FRD Consortium tools guide
RJB Audio Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
There is a lot of choice out there and some of them will be far better
value than the Fostex parts and be far better developed superior designs.
e.g. :
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=8806
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - Idunn
That Fostex bass/mid is a joke at the price, Xmax = 1.5mm peak is dreadful.
The tweeter doesn't look that much better either, both poor choices.
The Idunn does seem very suitable, a far better choice.
rgds, sreten.
undefinition (see FAQs)
Zaph|Audio
FRD Consortium tools guide
RJB Audio Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
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Hello,
Forget this Fostex. We could have the sensitivity to explain the price but we couldn't. Too expensive.
500€ you can do a lot of better designs than the Fostex one.
Read the choice of Troels
I can recommend this reference monitor as example but you have a lot of choices in the links above.
Have Fun.
Forget this Fostex. We could have the sensitivity to explain the price but we couldn't. Too expensive.
500€ you can do a lot of better designs than the Fostex one.
Read the choice of Troels
I can recommend this reference monitor as example but you have a lot of choices in the links above.
Have Fun.
There are a million speakers to choose from. I'd read this first, just to give you an idea of how different driver, cone materials effect the sound.
Here's another interesting read (I agree with post number 2, but I know some love the sound of polypropylene): Speaker Cone - Poly vs Paper - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Troels 'Choices' section may have something that takes your fancy: Choices
Tony gee also has some good designs on his website: Humble Homemade Hifi
Here's another interesting read (I agree with post number 2, but I know some love the sound of polypropylene): Speaker Cone - Poly vs Paper - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Troels 'Choices' section may have something that takes your fancy: Choices
Tony gee also has some good designs on his website: Humble Homemade Hifi
Hi,
Poly vs. paper is an old chestnut and particularly pointless to generalise.
Loads of different poly formulations and shedloads of paper formulations.
But if we are going to generalise the woven poly cone in the Idunn will
have the most neutral midrange compared to using a paper type cone.
Its a miles better choice than the Fostex drivers for sure .....
If you want paper : https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=8307
And also see for nearfield BSC options : Zaph|Audio - ZA-SR71
TBH though I think http://zaphaudio.com/ZMV5.html for 2m listening
would do the job far more than adequately at a far lower cost.
The old dreaded metal cones .... very high value though ....
rgds, sreten.
Poly vs. paper is an old chestnut and particularly pointless to generalise.
Loads of different poly formulations and shedloads of paper formulations.
But if we are going to generalise the woven poly cone in the Idunn will
have the most neutral midrange compared to using a paper type cone.
Its a miles better choice than the Fostex drivers for sure .....
If you want paper : https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=8307
And also see for nearfield BSC options : Zaph|Audio - ZA-SR71
TBH though I think http://zaphaudio.com/ZMV5.html for 2m listening
would do the job far more than adequately at a far lower cost.
The old dreaded metal cones .... very high value though ....
rgds, sreten.
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One other thing - If you like to listen at low volumes, some speakers sound better at low volumes than others. I wouldn't want to 'generalise' but large, sensitive speakers usually sound best at low volumes. There's nearly always an exception to every rule and the insensitive Quad electrostatic is a good example of an insensitive speaker that sounds good at low volume.
The best i've had were Tannoy DMT 10" dual concentric, studio monitors. The midrange was full of life and the bass had plenty of weight - even at very low volume levels. I'm sure they would have been even better if the drivers were made of 'treated' paper (untreated CAN sound a bit rough and/or lack detail IMO YMMV etc etc)
The best i've had were Tannoy DMT 10" dual concentric, studio monitors. The midrange was full of life and the bass had plenty of weight - even at very low volume levels. I'm sure they would have been even better if the drivers were made of 'treated' paper (untreated CAN sound a bit rough and/or lack detail IMO YMMV etc etc)
Thank you for all the reply's! I think the interesting thing about speakers is that there is so much choice and to make a choice has always been my biggest problem. As with my preference's for anything, it depends, I've heard good results with poly cones in expensive speaker systems but I don't have any bias about anything at all. Who knows maybe kevlar is the ideal speaker material, I mean b&w uses it, but paper has always worked quite ok for me.
I saw the aluminum seas woofers from one of the links, I heard arguments about aluminum being a good material to make subwoofers out of but not mid range because it resonates like any metal does when you transfer kinetic energy onto its surface, but what do I know, consider myself a newbie.
Anyway I just opened up one of the boxes my speakers been sitting in, can't find my camera so I'll try to describe my desks speakers. They are very old brand-less speakers, a closed roughly 30 liters box build out of 18mm thick mdf. The speaker baffle is made out of wood ?! and the woofers material looks more closely related to carton than actual paper, the magnet really reveals to be no larger than a bottle cap, the back of the box is stuffed with what looks like wool but the sides have no damping material at all, it does not have speaker terminals but a hole drilled in it in which the wires come in.
No wonder my friend didn't ask any money when he gave them to me haha.
Of course it has a smaller cone in the middle since its a full range speaker. As of now I realize its stupid to just dismiss full range drivers as a whole because my speakers suck altogether.
Who know I may just go with a pair of these fostex 8 inch fullranges, I mean its certainly cheaper and less time consuming. I could probably vent the box to extend the bass response as well, if the treble is not what I like I could add a super tweeter like described.
I hope I'm not upsetting anyone with this jabbering of mine
But guys I learn fast, I mean knowledge is power and if I come up with a stupid setup by all means correct me.
I saw the aluminum seas woofers from one of the links, I heard arguments about aluminum being a good material to make subwoofers out of but not mid range because it resonates like any metal does when you transfer kinetic energy onto its surface, but what do I know, consider myself a newbie.
Anyway I just opened up one of the boxes my speakers been sitting in, can't find my camera so I'll try to describe my desks speakers. They are very old brand-less speakers, a closed roughly 30 liters box build out of 18mm thick mdf. The speaker baffle is made out of wood ?! and the woofers material looks more closely related to carton than actual paper, the magnet really reveals to be no larger than a bottle cap, the back of the box is stuffed with what looks like wool but the sides have no damping material at all, it does not have speaker terminals but a hole drilled in it in which the wires come in.
No wonder my friend didn't ask any money when he gave them to me haha.
Of course it has a smaller cone in the middle since its a full range speaker. As of now I realize its stupid to just dismiss full range drivers as a whole because my speakers suck altogether.
Who know I may just go with a pair of these fostex 8 inch fullranges, I mean its certainly cheaper and less time consuming. I could probably vent the box to extend the bass response as well, if the treble is not what I like I could add a super tweeter like described.
I hope I'm not upsetting anyone with this jabbering of mine
But guys I learn fast, I mean knowledge is power and if I come up with a stupid setup by all means correct me.
Fullrangers aren't perfect but they can be highly satisfying all the same. My main system will be different but fullrange is my first choice for - office, garage, bedroom etc...
Two reasons in my opinion why they would suit a desktop environment are: the narrowing treble dispersion would be preferable when placed on a flat surface, especially when there is the chance of clutter...and sitting on a high vertical axis makes crossover design less simple also considering that the listening axis is going to change at a desk, and the tweeter can't be placed underneath the woofer as it may get damaged.
Two reasons in my opinion why they would suit a desktop environment are: the narrowing treble dispersion would be preferable when placed on a flat surface, especially when there is the chance of clutter...and sitting on a high vertical axis makes crossover design less simple also considering that the listening axis is going to change at a desk, and the tweeter can't be placed underneath the woofer as it may get damaged.
I respect your opinions, of course and there is a lot to say for both. When listening to music that incorporate 5 string basses, raging guitar solo's and clashing cymbals at the same time, inter modulation distortion kicks in when using a single driver.
Of course with country music you don't have this problem. I was thinking maybe I'd build sort of a hybrid speaker, like a crossover at 15khz or something like that.
Of course with country music you don't have this problem. I was thinking maybe I'd build sort of a hybrid speaker, like a crossover at 15khz or something like that.
I wouldn't bother with fullrangers. They are the last thing you want if you like to compose music. Fullrangers are another one of my pet-hates.
THESE would be ideal, but may be too expensive to build. They use the same drivers as the Proac studio 100. The Proacs are very popular in recording studios, but unlike a lot of studio monitors, they make great hifi speakers (I just sold a pair on ebay)
Another interesting read: http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html
I'm gonna guess that sreten or fatmarly have not heard any of the good FRs that have only appeared recently. Some of these are fully capable of 9 octaves with well behaved FR.
These FRs are capable of a coherency and an ability to keep the harmonics inside the envelope that no "typical" multiway with an XO has any hope of doing. It is this that has endeared many to FRs even thou they lacked top & bottom and may have had quite onjectionable FR anomalies. FRs have improved to the point now where you can have your cake & eat it too.
They do still give up in ultimate levels & dynamics. Near field this is not as big an issue, and if it is, adding a helper woofer can give most, if not all of that back. Technically a 2-way, these FASTs are still lumped in as FRs.
The followings post & the next will help further on the latter subject.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/192111-minimum-phase-design-recipe.html#post2629867
dave
These FRs are capable of a coherency and an ability to keep the harmonics inside the envelope that no "typical" multiway with an XO has any hope of doing. It is this that has endeared many to FRs even thou they lacked top & bottom and may have had quite onjectionable FR anomalies. FRs have improved to the point now where you can have your cake & eat it too.
They do still give up in ultimate levels & dynamics. Near field this is not as big an issue, and if it is, adding a helper woofer can give most, if not all of that back. Technically a 2-way, these FASTs are still lumped in as FRs.
The followings post & the next will help further on the latter subject.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/192111-minimum-phase-design-recipe.html#post2629867
dave
I have only heard a few fullrangers and that wasn't recent, so I guess it's possible things have moved on.
It's funny, but the thing that put me off fullrange drivers was the bipole design on your website. I did loads of research, reading the 'Full range' room of Diyaudio, built them, and ran them in for what seemed like a lifetime, but they were really shouty and had the least bass or volume capability of any speaker i've ever owned (and i've owned quite a few comercial speakers). I even tried the enABL thing, but although it improved things, they were still shouty and far too lean.
They did look nice though...
I bought the Tannoy DMT10s and they beat the fostex bipoles in every way possible - more life at low volumes, much better, more realistic midrange and obviously the bass and volume capability were far better.
Only 1 FE127 bipole on any of my sites and those aren't them. If they are sealed that is Giovanni Militano's design. Absolutely need helper woofers, they don't even reach 100 Hz (an estimate).
With that room placement, you'd be better off with the 2nd driver side firing. Or some toe-in (30 degrees?)
As to treatment, EnABL will make them better, but they really need the pre-treatment to (mostly) deal with the 7k peak.
dave
Yep they are the sealed ones that are linked to on the planet10 site.
The room placement was for the photo. I tried to integrate a Rel strata 5 subwoofer, but the speakers wouldn't go low enough to allow it.
As you say, some woofers (not the subwoofer that I tried) would have helped, but I couldn't do anything to stop the ragged response and the terrible beaming at high frequencies.
I built the Fostex bipoles because I wanted to hear that magical midrange that fullrangers are supposed to have. I found it in the end, but with the Tannoys, not the bipoles.
EDIT: I'm amazed that no one seems to have noticed, that I appear to be contradicting myself regarding the Tannoys (they have polypropylene drivers)
The room placement was for the photo. I tried to integrate a Rel strata 5 subwoofer, but the speakers wouldn't go low enough to allow it.
As you say, some woofers (not the subwoofer that I tried) would have helped, but I couldn't do anything to stop the ragged response and the terrible beaming at high frequencies.
I built the Fostex bipoles because I wanted to hear that magical midrange that fullrangers are supposed to have. I found it in the end, but with the Tannoys, not the bipoles.
EDIT: I'm amazed that no one seems to have noticed, that I appear to be contradicting myself regarding the Tannoys (they have polypropylene drivers)
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