XOs are evil. But a compromise often needed to avoid other compromises. Much of the evil can be avoided if one can keep the XO below the quarter wavelength of the driver C-C. And a simple BO, but they are often
The hardest to do
dave
9.5 octaves are realizable, the compromise usually ultimate levels (unneeded by OP)
dave
They certainly do. I agree that a crossover is difficult to get right (even when taking into account the physical aspects). Unfortunately so many of them are at frequencies where we are sensitive to the things that can go wrong.
I completely agree with you, Dave, and it's all the more reason he should start with an existing design, or a kit, rather than trying to design something himself.
However, I still don't see any signifcant advantage to a single driver build over a multi-way other than somewhat less work, and also less cost, to build it.
Sonically, though I still think even a 2-way will be more rich sounding and satisfying than a single driver speaker.
Although a lot of that depends one what type of music is played. For vocals and some jazz probably a single driver is fine. But if you want to play Mahler, Wagner, or Tchaikovsky it's probably not going to be very safisfying.
Yes. And all the more reason to build a tested and proven design by one of the experts rather than attempting to design it yourself.
The readily available crossover design software packages are not necessarily the panacea that many think they are. They can probably get you into the ballpark, but not scoring home runs.
That's right, if you don't know what you're doing then the software won't do that for you.
For some, building a proven design might be like taking the easy road. For some this will be good, and for others it would be better to face the problems from the start.
For some, building a proven design might be like taking the easy road. For some this will be good, and for others it would be better to face the problems from the start.
You obviously haven’t experienced enuff 1-ways yet :^)
I’ve had builds that outdo things like the 10k$ Sonus Faber i heard at our local hifi store
I will no longer consider a 2-way if the XO is much above that quarter wave criteria noted earlier
dave
PS: for heavy classical I would do a WAW but proven designs are still few on the ground and even fewer if you want a passive XO.
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Well, that may be very true. I can't say that I have. But what I do know is that the 2-way Piccolos I listen to all the time are entirely satisfying and particulalry with Classical music. The violins, flutes, piccolos, and pianos sound just like you are in the same room with them. Clear and rich sounding with virtually no distortion. At least not to me. Plus the imaging is outstanding. I cannot imagine any speakers, and certainly not one-ways, being any better.
I've seen the frequency response curves for the MA 10.3 and it's actually pretty poor with about 14 db variation from 3.5 to 20 KHz. By comparison the SB29RDNC tweeter used in the Piccolo is completly flat to 20 Khz. That's a big difference and I think one of the reasons the Piccolos sound so good up high.
Sorry, but I just don't share your expectation that a one-way can compete. And as far as cohesion at the crossover is concerned I don't hear anything objectional at all. So no, crossovers are not "evil" at all. Just in the minds of some people, but certainly not everyone.
To me the 2-ways I have sound great. Now maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure what that might be.
I’ve heard those. Bob sold a bunch of EL-70s right after being compared to Mar-Kel70
dave
Wow another civilized fight. Frightening away newbies (and old hands). May I suggest fewer acronyms and more links to stuff and designs mentioned? In my experience (for myself) the hardest step was the first. I first experienced the "local fair" a 4" full-range single-driver-with-whizzer small "labyrinth" ($100 made by AIRS) and was shocked how effortlessly it did both soundstage (violin high, piano behind and low) and movie booms. AIRS sold 5" drivers but not finished speakers, so I essentially copied and enlarged their 4". Then I joined hifidiy (China's diyaudio) and read about a miracle fiberglass honeycomb driver from (German?) Mivoc, not locally available. But I found a better substitute, a driver made for Eve Audio (Adam spin-off) 7-liter DSP active monitor with AMT retail $1500, and made a passive of the same size for $150, supersized AMT and 1-meter compact transmission line in lieu of electronics/DSP-EQ. Great for orchestral music too, and piano organ double bass whatever.
Yes to copy, but with diy problem-solving spirit.
Yes to copy, but with diy problem-solving spirit.
But no one should listen on that axis (and not a replesentive curve in fealty). FR curves should be examined, considered, and then mainly ignored.
ie what is the FR at different frequencies? What does the impedance look like? Who, what & how were they measured? What is the QC like, fairly tight like the MA or all over the place like TB or AN? How flat are the T/S curves. There is more. All important
dave
Without knowing your budget, etc, it's hard to provide suggestions for you, but this kind of thing might be of interest: similar idea to the Piccolos (5" two way) , but uses much more expensive drivers. Not necessarily better, but more expensive.
I think there's a kit available from Meniscus, will have to check; comparing the write ups by their respective designers, it sounds (no pun) like the Carreras might dig deeper in the bass. Mr Bagby states that he would put the Piccolos up against any other speaker of similar size.
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/bookshelf-speakers/carrera
I ventured into the world of DIY speakers about six years ago: the range of projects, prices, complexity, cabinet sizes etc was mind-boggling and confusing at first, which is why I suggest doing a lot of research before you decide. Your budget, room size, listening habits, Spouse Approval Factor (where appropriate) will all have a bearing on your options and will help to sort through everyone's suggestions.
In our case, for my first pair:
After answering those questions, I emailed the designer of one project I was considering and asked whether it would work for us; he suggested another option which works brilliantly.
Geoff
Geoff
I think there's a kit available from Meniscus, will have to check; comparing the write ups by their respective designers, it sounds (no pun) like the Carreras might dig deeper in the bass. Mr Bagby states that he would put the Piccolos up against any other speaker of similar size.
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/bookshelf-speakers/carrera
I ventured into the world of DIY speakers about six years ago: the range of projects, prices, complexity, cabinet sizes etc was mind-boggling and confusing at first, which is why I suggest doing a lot of research before you decide. Your budget, room size, listening habits, Spouse Approval Factor (where appropriate) will all have a bearing on your options and will help to sort through everyone's suggestions.
In our case, for my first pair:
budget was A$700, plus cabinets (made by a family friend);
room is 5m x 10m with 4m ceilings;
listening is 20% jazz, 40% pop/rock and 40% classical, mainly CD or FM radio;
cabinet size was limited to no more than 1m high and 20-30cm wide, no more than 30cm deep;
floor standing, not on stands;
cabinets had to look good; and
receiver is 80 watts RMS/Channel
After answering those questions, I emailed the designer of one project I was considering and asked whether it would work for us; he suggested another option which works brilliantly.
Geoff
Geoff
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In my opinion, choose your poison (or nirvana).
One-way does effortlessly what common multi-way finds very difficult or very expensive: fast, dynamic transcient attack and articulation (micro-dynamic linearity), and 3D imaging with height and depth (phase coherence and vertical point-source necessary for near-field).
Common multi-way, after expending great effort, can do what one-way finds very difficult or impossible: flat, extended frequency response, in particular dynamic-range-uncompressed bass and true high-frequency instrument tonality, color, and air.
My first high-fidelity speakers were Quad ESL63 one-way and Monitor Audio Studio multi-way. Mo achieved 1990s state-of-the-art with aluminum drivers up-down and (therefore) first-order XO. Common multi-way commerical makers even today don't have that choice.
One-way does effortlessly what common multi-way finds very difficult or very expensive: fast, dynamic transcient attack and articulation (micro-dynamic linearity), and 3D imaging with height and depth (phase coherence and vertical point-source necessary for near-field).
Common multi-way, after expending great effort, can do what one-way finds very difficult or impossible: flat, extended frequency response, in particular dynamic-range-uncompressed bass and true high-frequency instrument tonality, color, and air.
My first high-fidelity speakers were Quad ESL63 one-way and Monitor Audio Studio multi-way. Mo achieved 1990s state-of-the-art with aluminum drivers up-down and (therefore) first-order XO. Common multi-way commerical makers even today don't have that choice.
If not on-axis (and coming from front-L/R the directions where hearing is most acute), the very high frequencies will go missing, which diminishes the music's liveliness not to mention imaging and air. And not on-axis to compensate for tonality oddness means position-tweaking ad infinitum without repeatable standard. So I personally don't accept this "solution". A good example is my Lowther PM6A, ear-bleeding on-axis and unrealistic instrument voices even off-axis (how much is right?) despite amazing technical prowess.
My "compromise" solution is multi-way first-order XO (preferably series-first-order), and one-way notch-filter (connected to driver + in series) which is the same thing.
Minimalist XO/notch method: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ge-drivers-and-a-tweeter.391053/#post-7143129
Compact TLonken (pronounced t'LONken) mods: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/desktop-transmission-line.391306/page-2#post-7150876
XO-less two-way virtual one-way: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/1-order-crossover-help.391332/page-2#post-7151405
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I never had issue with the top on the A10.3. The A10.2 not as good as, and the A10.1 tad a top earily similiar to JX92 or Eikona.
But I prefer A7.3 (P7hd/A7ms) and add woofers if I feel the need
dave
I'm afraid you are going to get a lot of disagreement with the idea that FR curves should be ignored.
Floyd Toole wrote a whole book about it after being recognized for many years as an expert in the field of sound reproduciton.
You can say that about anything audio, so many compromises, so many different people. Each has to find their own way. We can only share our experiences.
Like earlier today ran into Steve (the physio who took from 2-wheel walker to a cane) expressed how happy he is with his FHXL/Alpair 10PeNz
dave
I don't think you have to choose a poison at all. You can actually have nirvana if you choose the right speakers.
My Piccolos provide all of the above. Fast, dynamic transcient attack and articulation, outstanding 3D imaging with height and depth, and phase coherence with near-field listening. I have rarely heard speakers that make you think the piano is actually right there in the room with you like these do.
At the same time these 2-ways produce the strongly desired flat, extended frequency response, excellent dynamic range with uncompressed bass, and true high-frequency instrument tonality, color, and air. And it is this latter that is really outstanding.
The belief that 2-ways always give up something compared to single drivers has no real basis. Some people choose to believe it, but others like me have experiences that cause us to totally reject the idea, and believe that actually the opposite is true.
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