I am a newb audiophile, I have a pair of K701 headphones and a good headphone amp and I have to say that I am completely addicted to good music and I would like to expand that to my car and to my home. One thing that I have noticed is that there is a huge selection of used 12v automobile equipment. Mostly amps and subwoofers, but the used market for this stuff is huge and cheap...... Did I mention that I was cheap? Ok, I am and I want to find the best and least expensive to get my home system up and running. So, automotive amplification seems to be much less expensive much more availiable. Is there a way to use this equipment for my home? I don't know too much about electronics. I would guess that home amplifiers are dc and have quality inverters. I was thinking that I could get a really good inverter and run several inexpensive automotive amplifiers to build a home system. Or maybe use a battery and charger set up if the charger doesn't create too much noise. Maybe I could make it so that if the charger senses that there is a draw on the battery that it will wait to charge until after I turn off the amplifiers..... Here is what I have. 1 Onkyo reciever and a basic 5 speaker surround system with a powered Polk SW. I also have a PC with a couple of choices for DAC from my headphone equipment. CL or Wolfson(?) dac, either one of them sound very good to me and are very well implemented DAC units probably around 115 db snr. I see a very large swing in the automotive amplifiers from under 80 db snr to around 100 for the good ones.
Well, I guess I just need to ask if this wil work or not. I can run a well powered 2 ch 4 ohm amp with 4 8 ohm speakers for a 4 ohm load right? Will these automotive amps sound as good as home amps? I just can't get over the cost of home amps. I bought an older Sony home amp about a month ago but had to return it after I noticed the output transistors were blown. I would be interested in home amps if I can find some that cost about 100-200 bucks and put out 400 w rms like the decent automotive amps that I see.
Thanks for any information.
😛
Well, I guess I just need to ask if this wil work or not. I can run a well powered 2 ch 4 ohm amp with 4 8 ohm speakers for a 4 ohm load right? Will these automotive amps sound as good as home amps? I just can't get over the cost of home amps. I bought an older Sony home amp about a month ago but had to return it after I noticed the output transistors were blown. I would be interested in home amps if I can find some that cost about 100-200 bucks and put out 400 w rms like the decent automotive amps that I see.
Thanks for any information.
😛
There is a gentleman on here that has a web site dedicated to car audio information. It is VERY informative to say the least. I will try to find the link for you. What you want to do is possible. You can get very good sound from car components...you just have to get the power supply issue right. I'm not an expert in that area so I cannot make any suggestions.
Cheers.
Cheers.
My gut feeling says me a decent power supply for 12V will be expensive. I wouldn't like the idea of transforming down to 12v and the amping it up again.
I would suggest you look at used PA-amps maybe. Or maybe something with a Tripath class-d and smps would be your thing too.
If you like the car route, go for it.
I would suggest you look at used PA-amps maybe. Or maybe something with a Tripath class-d and smps would be your thing too.
If you like the car route, go for it.
A good computer power supply can be had cheaply for 500w+ (in desktop pcs up to 1.5kw or so), often 30A+ for 12v or more on older single rail designs. You can confirm weather single rail or many small ones as it will be listed as smaller amperage per 12v circuit e.g. 12v1 10a 12v2 10a etc etc. Enermax is probably the rolls royce of computer powersupply, which would be nice and stable, clean power = clean sound. A good old single rail design one of which I use is the enermax EG465-VE with a 25A continuous 'even when mercury is in retrograde and the sparrows fly over the earthing pole' conservative rating - should be enough for anything under 500w.
Remember to be very careful with current even 12v if you start doing whacky things with psus. I've had a 9v battery short a thin piece of copper which cut through my middle fingerprint like butter (pretty unusual lol), so almost no current or voltage is safe really.
Remember to be very careful with current even 12v if you start doing whacky things with psus. I've had a 9v battery short a thin piece of copper which cut through my middle fingerprint like butter (pretty unusual lol), so almost no current or voltage is safe really.
most CAR Audio is of very low quality. Most of Car Audio have grossly exaggerated specifications.
Any one selling off second owner gear must have a reason (unless it's to buy even more exaggerated powerful amplifiers). Could it be they were disappointed with the performance?
I seriously doubt that CAR Audio in the home can compete with a well designed and assembled home amplifier.
By The Way (BTW),
using higher impedance speakers helps CAR Audio power amplifiers to reproduce better.
If the Power Amp is specified for 4ohm duty, it will almost certainly perform better with 8ohm speaker. Just not quite as loud.
Similarly with 1ohm and 2ohm specified amplifiers. Using 8ohm speakers will be better.
Any one selling off second owner gear must have a reason (unless it's to buy even more exaggerated powerful amplifiers). Could it be they were disappointed with the performance?
I seriously doubt that CAR Audio in the home can compete with a well designed and assembled home amplifier.
By The Way (BTW),
using higher impedance speakers helps CAR Audio power amplifiers to reproduce better.
If the Power Amp is specified for 4ohm duty, it will almost certainly perform better with 8ohm speaker. Just not quite as loud.
Similarly with 1ohm and 2ohm specified amplifiers. Using 8ohm speakers will be better.
Yes, car audio is of very low quality. Probably because of the "street noise" they don't need a high resolution requirement. Typical sound of the very best car amps can be compared with paralleled TO-220 IRF devices. You can build the Quasi Amp to beat them.
Commercial home amps are indeed too expensive for its sound quality, but a DIY amp can be built with 200 buck budget. The most expensive part is the transformer.
Gainclone LM3886 has different character. It is very cheap but the sound quality can be very high if you don't mind the harshness in the high frequency and not so well defined bass performance (But this is in comparison with very good discrete designs). If you prefer cleaner sound but less sonic then LM3875/LM3876 will do.
But the real performer is the speaker, and it is not cheap. Your speaker is unfortunately not suitable for audiophile quality sound system. May be you can invest on the speaker first, and use a cheap DIY chip amp (while investing on the 28V-0-28V transformer for better future amp)
Commercial home amps are indeed too expensive for its sound quality, but a DIY amp can be built with 200 buck budget. The most expensive part is the transformer.
Gainclone LM3886 has different character. It is very cheap but the sound quality can be very high if you don't mind the harshness in the high frequency and not so well defined bass performance (But this is in comparison with very good discrete designs). If you prefer cleaner sound but less sonic then LM3875/LM3876 will do.
But the real performer is the speaker, and it is not cheap. Your speaker is unfortunately not suitable for audiophile quality sound system. May be you can invest on the speaker first, and use a cheap DIY chip amp (while investing on the 28V-0-28V transformer for better future amp)
Indeed Jay. BTW I found out the hard way that MOST car speakers are utter junk and should be avoided at all costs.
Low power car amps are most of the time powered by chipamps. Those can be powered with a computer PSU and generally sound acceptable. Don't invest money here or else you will be disappointed. Go garbage picking for old car stereos as most of those contain such chipamps (i.e. TDA7376). Avoid units equipped with TDA2003/2004/2005. Also, don't get bothered too much with the claimed output power...
In the end, it is a much wiser idea to save your money and time to get a pair of TDA2030 or 2050 and create a chipamp yourself (been there, done that).
Low power car amps are most of the time powered by chipamps. Those can be powered with a computer PSU and generally sound acceptable. Don't invest money here or else you will be disappointed. Go garbage picking for old car stereos as most of those contain such chipamps (i.e. TDA7376). Avoid units equipped with TDA2003/2004/2005. Also, don't get bothered too much with the claimed output power...
In the end, it is a much wiser idea to save your money and time to get a pair of TDA2030 or 2050 and create a chipamp yourself (been there, done that).
DIY seldom saves money
"pro" PA amps new cost less than you can buy the parts for individually
also powered monitors can give very good performance for the price if you listen nearfield
if you have any employment prospects or panhandling oppopurtunity you will spend less time earning and buying inexpensive finished products than getting into DIY
"pro" PA amps new cost less than you can buy the parts for individually
also powered monitors can give very good performance for the price if you listen nearfield
if you have any employment prospects or panhandling oppopurtunity you will spend less time earning and buying inexpensive finished products than getting into DIY
Last edited:
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
as a conclusion or a guide line
----all class AB car amplifiers are based more or less on the same circuit
---- quality of sound is average from topology aspect
---- but noise figures / cross talks / size issues /switching /powersuplly/qualityof material or built and so on makes it even worst
---- Typical designs with limmiters that are not acceptable when you think from HIFI till HI END
---- TRully are designed to operate in 4OHM or less and they will happily work better at 8 with a bit less boom boom
that was a brief sescription of normal car audio amps ...you will of course find many variation of the above depenting on the manufacturer
if you can live with that then your problem lays in energy power conversion to convert mains to 13.8 and not 12 volt ( computer power supply sugestion is simply out of the question unless is heavilly modified to proper voltage 13.8 and proper amperage )
totally the ammount of money you are going to pay for a system like that devided by quality of sound versus any comercial amp will be at least double and result by far terrible
so get our shelf a real amp ... and go ahead from there ...
happy regards sakis
----all class AB car amplifiers are based more or less on the same circuit
---- quality of sound is average from topology aspect
---- but noise figures / cross talks / size issues /switching /powersuplly/qualityof material or built and so on makes it even worst
---- Typical designs with limmiters that are not acceptable when you think from HIFI till HI END
---- TRully are designed to operate in 4OHM or less and they will happily work better at 8 with a bit less boom boom
that was a brief sescription of normal car audio amps ...you will of course find many variation of the above depenting on the manufacturer
if you can live with that then your problem lays in energy power conversion to convert mains to 13.8 and not 12 volt ( computer power supply sugestion is simply out of the question unless is heavilly modified to proper voltage 13.8 and proper amperage )
totally the ammount of money you are going to pay for a system like that devided by quality of sound versus any comercial amp will be at least double and result by far terrible
so get our shelf a real amp ... and go ahead from there ...
happy regards sakis
Thank you all for the great information. It seems that I really shouldn't spend the time or money to try to make a car stereo part of my home set up. I will be browsing forums for the next couple of months and try to figure out a decent set up for my home. I don't know too much about the components of amplifiers or speakers but I would like to learn the basics at least. Probably not to build an amp, but at least to be able to troubleshoot a broken one in the future. I will likely sell my headphone equipment since I can't use it very often so this will give me a budget of about $700 for a home stereo. Thanks
i don't know where you are, but a good used PA amp and either stage monitor or studio monitor speakers is most likely in your price range. stay away from Peavey CS- series amps, as they are near-zero-bias class B amps and will sound terrible at low volume. one really good design by QSC has been copied by Tapco, Samson, Behringer and American Audio, and is quite common these days, and it sounds good AND is relatively inexpensive. look for pro-audio and music stores that sell used or consignment equipment, you should be able to find some really good deals.
American trash talk
Peavey stuff went through various revisions, 1976 era CS stuff is what you say, PA quality guitar use only grade with notch distortion. 1997 & later CS800S really sounds good. Somebody recently said something nice about the CS800X. The reason car audio stuff is such a plague on the market now, is all those little buzzy cars wore out or rusted away. There is 50 times as much car stuff on craigslist as PA gear, and the PA gear is not being sold because the car wore out (Ie consumer beware, possible heat or reliability issues). If I were really poor and wanted good bass, I wouldn't hesitate to score a car box, a garage sale battery charger 20 amp or higher, and a lawnmower battery to even out the waves. I saw the battery on the curb today for the garbage men, they won't take haz waste like that. Then again, there is a guy trying to give away Hammond Condor powered speakers, 15" woofer and internal amp. That plus a piezo tweeter and some QA work with a mike and spectrum analysis program could make a decent two element speakers-the box is certainly big enough and dead enough.
Peavey stuff went through various revisions, 1976 era CS stuff is what you say, PA quality guitar use only grade with notch distortion. 1997 & later CS800S really sounds good. Somebody recently said something nice about the CS800X. The reason car audio stuff is such a plague on the market now, is all those little buzzy cars wore out or rusted away. There is 50 times as much car stuff on craigslist as PA gear, and the PA gear is not being sold because the car wore out (Ie consumer beware, possible heat or reliability issues). If I were really poor and wanted good bass, I wouldn't hesitate to score a car box, a garage sale battery charger 20 amp or higher, and a lawnmower battery to even out the waves. I saw the battery on the curb today for the garbage men, they won't take haz waste like that. Then again, there is a guy trying to give away Hammond Condor powered speakers, 15" woofer and internal amp. That plus a piezo tweeter and some QA work with a mike and spectrum analysis program could make a decent two element speakers-the box is certainly big enough and dead enough.
the newer CS series is completely different inside than theearlier ones for sure. i think the reason for the 3-diode-drop-bias for 4-diode-drop-worth of transistors was for reliability. a lot of PA and SS guitar amps from the 70's and 80's were built like that. i've never liked fixed bias, and i'm used to seeing something.... anything... across the emitter resistors in an amplifier at idle...
the only common reliability problems i've seen with those CS amps were the thermal switches for the fan and the nuclear meltdown under the amp board when the power supply wiring harness gets pinched between the board and the chassis. usually the only reason the output stage shorts in those amps is from abuse (driving a short, running the amp for extended periods into clipping with the limiter turned off, etc...)
the only common reliability problems i've seen with those CS amps were the thermal switches for the fan and the nuclear meltdown under the amp board when the power supply wiring harness gets pinched between the board and the chassis. usually the only reason the output stage shorts in those amps is from abuse (driving a short, running the amp for extended periods into clipping with the limiter turned off, etc...)
That, and the fact that the old QC design can be unstable with "just a little bias". Same for the Series 1 Phase Linears (very similar output circuit). Full complementary doesn't have the instability problems. And of course, reliability is much better if you keep the output bias "below zero" - even if you use a complementary circuit like they typical MJE3055/2955 car amp output circuit.
The class B crossover distortion is the biggest problem I've seen with car amps. They'll sound awful cold, and a bit better warmed up. Some even have NO emitter resistors to squeak out every watt into 4 ohms bridged that they can. I've modified several to put a few mA through the outputs, and the difference in SQ is like night and day. Of course, after that you can't go blasting it until it's blistering hot anymore (it will run away and fry, even if you do use a heatsink-mounted Vbe multiplier). But at normal volumes it will sound way better than stock.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.