Hi folks!
I want to build power amp from DIY kit. Looking for clean and crisp sound.
I'm new to this world, any advice is helpful. Also need help with bookshelf speakers for future amp.
Thanks a lot!
I want to build power amp from DIY kit. Looking for clean and crisp sound.
I'm new to this world, any advice is helpful. Also need help with bookshelf speakers for future amp.
Thanks a lot!
Amps and speakers can't be viewed in isolation. The speakers you select will govern what you do about an amp. If you acquire speakers with honest mid 90s sensitivity, you don't need a lot of power. Also, you want speakers that present a reasonably flat impedance curve.
Quite a few threads on this depending onwhat you want and listen to. Why don't you begin and tell us what your goals are and how much experience you have building electronics.
Being relatively new to diy tube amps myself, I will suggest that you read the Safety sticky and head the advise. Then set your goals on a project that can be completed succesfully. That level depends on your ability. There are a lot of great kits out there. For power amps, I started with a Tubelab Simple SE, then went to the Tubelab SE, and am now in the midst of designing my own modern version of the Mullard 5-20 using UL KT88's. The first two are single ended and don't have a lot of power but they get the job done with 90dB speakers for most things. Great building block to learn and experiment with. If you have efficient speakers, want to build your own chassis, have the flexibility to order your own parts, and don't want heavy metal then I highly recomend Tubelabs SE. He is also working on a PP amp as well which the last time Ichecked wasn't ready for press yet. Maybe George will chime in.
P.S. Eli has the El Cheapo which I havn't built myself but used some of the concepts with his help. That would be a great project as well
Being relatively new to diy tube amps myself, I will suggest that you read the Safety sticky and head the advise. Then set your goals on a project that can be completed succesfully. That level depends on your ability. There are a lot of great kits out there. For power amps, I started with a Tubelab Simple SE, then went to the Tubelab SE, and am now in the midst of designing my own modern version of the Mullard 5-20 using UL KT88's. The first two are single ended and don't have a lot of power but they get the job done with 90dB speakers for most things. Great building block to learn and experiment with. If you have efficient speakers, want to build your own chassis, have the flexibility to order your own parts, and don't want heavy metal then I highly recomend Tubelabs SE. He is also working on a PP amp as well which the last time Ichecked wasn't ready for press yet. Maybe George will chime in.
P.S. Eli has the El Cheapo which I havn't built myself but used some of the concepts with his help. That would be a great project as well
I'm electronics engineer, build lots of different projects, first time to tubes.
Found some kits on eBay "Elekit", any recommendations and feedbacks?
Thanks.
Found some kits on eBay "Elekit", any recommendations and feedbacks?
Thanks.
"I'm electronics engineer..."
Me too. That's why I didn't bother with any kits, but rather designed my own. The main things to remember: there is no such thing as a "P-Channel" vacuum tube, so complimentary topologies are not possible; VTs are low gain devices, so it makes a bigger difference as to type selection; VTs are Hi-Z devices -- this has definite implications concnerning bandwidth; VTs are a good deal more linear, so you won't be needing the same levels of gNFB correction that solid state amps require.
You will find that most of that solid state know-how transfers. I'd start with Pete's Site and go ahead and grab the Radiotron Designers Handbook (fourth edition)[/url] to get up to speed on hollow state. There are also lots of additional books and "white papers" free for the downloading there as well. For designing tube circuits, loadlines are highly valued, and are almost mandatory, as "design by equation" is not so easy, nor accurate. Frank's Site has spec sheets, complete with plate characteristics, for just esssssssss-loads of different types.
That should give you a good idea as to what you need, and where to start.
I built my first tube amp the Elekit TU-879S a few months back. It was a perfect beginner project for me. Things I like about it- clean, very quiet, plenty of power, accepts a wide variety of commonly available (affordable) tubes, it looks like a finished product when complete, plenty of room for modifications. Currently it's driving a pair of Fostex FE166E's. Pretty sweet sounding to my ears- listening to Grant Green "Green Street" at the moment, very nice. Many hours of listening pleasure. Anyway, I am pleased with the Elekit as a finished piece of audio equipment. It may not be challenging enough to many here -it's a kit, not really diy. Even though it is a pretty simple project I learned a lot of important basic building skills. Details, details... Perfect for a non-techie like me.
Good luck to you on your first tube project whatever you decide.
I also did the Elekit as my first project. It's a nice little amp, probably his limit are in the small opts.
D.
D.
I have a similar background although moved tocomputers 20+ years ago. For any EE tubes are just dead simple. Much simpler to design than a good SS amp.
As said about speakers. They matter. With solid state, designers simplely use whatever power it takes. 100W is reasonable. But with tubes power is very expensive so you design the system around sensitive speakers.
I would suject a small single ended amp. Really the best first project is a guitar amp because they are mono and very simple but if you don't play that would be of little use.
You'd want to build a small 5 watt single ended stereo amp. 5W don't sound like much but with 98 Db/W at 1 meter you'll not want to run it full volume.
It will be very hard to build a 98Db bookself speaker. The bookshelf speaker was an idea that can after solid state and cheap 50W amps.
You should buy this book. For an EE it is an easy read, very little math, nothing past high school level.
Amazon.com: Building Valve Amplifiers (9780750656955): Morgan Jones: Books
But much of the same material is here, on line. Although guitar oriented. This is even more simplified for someone who knows zero about tubes go to this page and click each of the links on the left, one at a time.
How to design valve guitar amplifiers
With the above you will be able to understand any tube amp schematic and do you own simple designs.
Would just like to add to ChrisA's recommendation, the book above 'Building Valve Amplifiers' is the companion book to 'Valve Amplifiers' by the same author. As you might guess, the 'Building' book is about the construction, while 'Valve Amplifiers' is more about design. I would consider the purchase of both.
Regards,
Chris
Regards,
Chris
I don't remember how I got turned on to MJ's book, but at the time (2000...this was the 2nd editon) it was a real eye-opener. I think I learned more about electronics design from that one book than I did getting my undergraduate degree two years before (EE).
So +1 for MJ's book (now books).
Edit: Mr. Jones should pay kick backs to this site or something.
So +1 for MJ's book (now books).
Edit: Mr. Jones should pay kick backs to this site or something.
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Or you could be like me, read the books and study the wealth of knowledge on this site with such obsession you never get anything actually built...or is that the new baby....ah, someday.
Designing something is fun but slow if you really want to learn a lot.
If you want something to listen to while you learn the next self designed project, start with a kit. I really like the tubelab ideas...
Designing something is fun but slow if you really want to learn a lot.
If you want something to listen to while you learn the next self designed project, start with a kit. I really like the tubelab ideas...
Roma,
As an EE, our technobabble will not faze you. Another poster was kind enough to mention "El Cheapo". If you build with good quality O/P trafos, the 12 WPC available from ultralinear mode "finals" are enough to drive some pretty good commercial "bookshelf" speakers. For instance, the Paradigm Studio 20s.
A complete kit for "El Cheapo" does not exist. Jim McShane sells a kit of parts to which you add magnetics and a chassis. If this project holds interest for you, the lengthy history is here.
As an EE, our technobabble will not faze you. Another poster was kind enough to mention "El Cheapo". If you build with good quality O/P trafos, the 12 WPC available from ultralinear mode "finals" are enough to drive some pretty good commercial "bookshelf" speakers. For instance, the Paradigm Studio 20s.
A complete kit for "El Cheapo" does not exist. Jim McShane sells a kit of parts to which you add magnetics and a chassis. If this project holds interest for you, the lengthy history is here.
Attachments
The more designs you do the more you learn.
It is not necessary to build everything you design, but a design is not really complete until it has been built and tested. This might be somebody else's job in industry, however. Just be aware that even with the greatest care in the design the amp may not perform entirely as expected and may require some modification, and that a good designer has experience of test, too.
I think the choice of ~5W + efficient speakers is a sensible starting point.
You could try to design 2 amplifiers, both to deliver ~5W, but one push-pull, and one single-ended. By the time you had finished this exercise, you would have a good insight into basic valve amplifier design. Just selecting the components for the output stage... you will have to think about this at some point.
The less power you insist on extracting from a given tube, the easier it is to find an acceptable design solution.
There's no way to escape looking at some existing designs and there's no way to escape reading datasheets and specs for tubes and transformers.
You don't have to build both amps tho'.
w
It is not necessary to build everything you design, but a design is not really complete until it has been built and tested. This might be somebody else's job in industry, however. Just be aware that even with the greatest care in the design the amp may not perform entirely as expected and may require some modification, and that a good designer has experience of test, too.
I think the choice of ~5W + efficient speakers is a sensible starting point.
You could try to design 2 amplifiers, both to deliver ~5W, but one push-pull, and one single-ended. By the time you had finished this exercise, you would have a good insight into basic valve amplifier design. Just selecting the components for the output stage... you will have to think about this at some point.
The less power you insist on extracting from a given tube, the easier it is to find an acceptable design solution.
There's no way to escape looking at some existing designs and there's no way to escape reading datasheets and specs for tubes and transformers.
You don't have to build both amps tho'.
w
My first post is a threadjack. How typical for me....
OK, same question about kits, different geek.
Here's some background:
My electronics (and electrical) foundation is not at all solid. I do basic wiring tasks at my house. I built an arcade system using a spare computer and a lot of buttons and joysticks. I can solder, although not very well.
Here's the height of hubris -- I don't really want to spend 1,000 hours learning tube design. I'd like to build a kit that is an improvement on my solid state Yamaha amp. I was thinking about one of the kits from S5 electronics. The price is right. I'd love to hear expert opinions about the sound quality.
My woodworking skills are better than average. I make my own furniture. I have very good machines and tools. Whatever I decide to build, it will be attractive.
My goal:
Listen to Steely Dan, Alan Parsons, ELO and similar music in a nice room with high ceilings and good acoustics.
Lately, I've been "acquiring" FLAC copies of vinyl recordings (of music that I already own). These rips come from people who use really good equipment. It's made me realize that I don't like the sound engineering on compact discs. The more recent the disc, the less I like it. I like the way vinyl rips sound on my digital equipment. I bet I'll like the sound better using 100% analog. I'm willing to spend some time and money to prove this hypothesis.
I got into CDs because my records never sounded very good -- a crap cartridge, poor balancing, and dirty vinyl, I now realize.
So, I've set about finding vinyl copies of my favorite music -- 180-gram+ releases. Many of these are hard to find new, so I've been buying the music first -- because I realize it may be very difficult to find that German Alan Parsons box set down the road, or a clean copy of Gaucho.
Assets:
A Technics quartz-drive turntable, vintage 1980. I'm the original owner. The cartridge will be replaced with a Denon DL103.
A pair of two-way Clarke Systems speakers. I'm the original owner. They're OK. Eventually, they're going to get replaced with a pair of Seas kit transmission line speakers. Nothing wrong with the Clarkes -- they'll see service elsewhere in the house. They're not going to fill the room the way I want, though.
A nice room, with high ceilings and good acoustics.
180 and 200-gram pressings (new, virgin vinyl) of Aja, Gaucho, Pyramid, Dark Side, and similar music -- never played.
Liabilities:
Limited funds.
I hope that you can help me decide on an amp to buy (or make) that will give me the sound I'm looking for -- jazz/orchestral rock with emphasis on clean sound (no booming bass or tinny high-end), with warm, realistic mids.
OK, same question about kits, different geek.
Here's some background:
My electronics (and electrical) foundation is not at all solid. I do basic wiring tasks at my house. I built an arcade system using a spare computer and a lot of buttons and joysticks. I can solder, although not very well.
Here's the height of hubris -- I don't really want to spend 1,000 hours learning tube design. I'd like to build a kit that is an improvement on my solid state Yamaha amp. I was thinking about one of the kits from S5 electronics. The price is right. I'd love to hear expert opinions about the sound quality.
My woodworking skills are better than average. I make my own furniture. I have very good machines and tools. Whatever I decide to build, it will be attractive.
My goal:
Listen to Steely Dan, Alan Parsons, ELO and similar music in a nice room with high ceilings and good acoustics.
Lately, I've been "acquiring" FLAC copies of vinyl recordings (of music that I already own). These rips come from people who use really good equipment. It's made me realize that I don't like the sound engineering on compact discs. The more recent the disc, the less I like it. I like the way vinyl rips sound on my digital equipment. I bet I'll like the sound better using 100% analog. I'm willing to spend some time and money to prove this hypothesis.
I got into CDs because my records never sounded very good -- a crap cartridge, poor balancing, and dirty vinyl, I now realize.
So, I've set about finding vinyl copies of my favorite music -- 180-gram+ releases. Many of these are hard to find new, so I've been buying the music first -- because I realize it may be very difficult to find that German Alan Parsons box set down the road, or a clean copy of Gaucho.
Assets:
A Technics quartz-drive turntable, vintage 1980. I'm the original owner. The cartridge will be replaced with a Denon DL103.
A pair of two-way Clarke Systems speakers. I'm the original owner. They're OK. Eventually, they're going to get replaced with a pair of Seas kit transmission line speakers. Nothing wrong with the Clarkes -- they'll see service elsewhere in the house. They're not going to fill the room the way I want, though.
A nice room, with high ceilings and good acoustics.
180 and 200-gram pressings (new, virgin vinyl) of Aja, Gaucho, Pyramid, Dark Side, and similar music -- never played.
Liabilities:
Limited funds.
I hope that you can help me decide on an amp to buy (or make) that will give me the sound I'm looking for -- jazz/orchestral rock with emphasis on clean sound (no booming bass or tinny high-end), with warm, realistic mids.
Roma, I am not an EE but have basic electronics knowledge, have 5 valve amps, 2 of them rebuilt into different topologies, one stock, one has been modified a fair bit, and one built from a Tubelab PCB. Sorry, and also to the guys who suggested it, that amp just does not look right to me for that money. You could build a Tubelab amp and choose good iron for that money, and end up with an amp to be proud of and keep for many years, because it will sound good and be built from quality components of your choice. There is a vendor forum here for Tubelab, plenty of support if required.
Look at how they mount the capacitor upside-down, its got Chinese amp written all over it, 4 of my amps are Chinese and they were great to learn on, very educational, and useful to learn about bad design and the effects of undersized transformers; but as an EE you could probably "go for the jugular" and build something decent straight up 🙂 Depends on what you want. Both paths are legitimate.
Ian.
Hi ScoopLV,
that DL103 cartridge is excellent.
IMHO there is no other component that makes so much difference to the sound than the speakers. So start by getting speakers you know you will be happy with. Try hard to spend a few hours with them before shelling out the cash.
Then you can look into amplification -- for tubes it is important to know the sensitivity of your speakers, it will determine the power level you need.
Next step after that would be a tube phono preamp 😉 Get/build one with low output impedance, and you get the added benefit of not needing a preamp anymore.
Kenneth
that DL103 cartridge is excellent.
IMHO there is no other component that makes so much difference to the sound than the speakers. So start by getting speakers you know you will be happy with. Try hard to spend a few hours with them before shelling out the cash.
Then you can look into amplification -- for tubes it is important to know the sensitivity of your speakers, it will determine the power level you need.
Next step after that would be a tube phono preamp 😉 Get/build one with low output impedance, and you get the added benefit of not needing a preamp anymore.
Kenneth
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