I am hoping to build a 'toolbox stereo' and have no idea about how to make the speaker part sound half way decent - please bear with me while I try to explain....
The dream is to make something that has sound quality as a priority - I am not a boom-box-boy. Serious volume is not needed - I spend a lot of my working life painting houses alone, and my current site radio just isn't up to the job. A tight bass and a smooth top end is the sort of sound I like, and the noise of a brush or roller is all it will be competing with !
I already have a few items - a pair of 6.5" Hertz DXC 165 coax speakers and a pair of 4" Dls UP4 component speakers. Both are car speakers and I have not found any info on cabinet sizing for them.
I have 2 amps - an SMSL SA36 and an SMSL SA98 (20wpc and 160wpc claimed outputs).
So far I have tried to mock up some 'cabinets' from 18mm mdf that will eventually be fixed into the toolbox and the largest internal size I can get is approx 140 wide x 165 tall x and 110mm deep if I make separate boxes for each, or a little over double if I make just one for both.
However, the sound produced is not good - no bass, too much rather muddled mid and rather sharp treble. I tried putting some foam carpet underlay in but that didn't improve things much. As the boxes are just a first attempt I have not made any real effort to seal them up which I guess may help.
So, my big question is where do I start trying to get a good sound (bearing in mind the laws of physics re bass..) - am I aiming for the impossible ?
I would rather keep the spending to a minimum but also want this to work so am happy to throw some cash at it - while I would like to do it myself, I know nothing about the technical side, so treat me like the beginner I am !
Many thanks for reading this far, and even more for any replies and help.
The dream is to make something that has sound quality as a priority - I am not a boom-box-boy. Serious volume is not needed - I spend a lot of my working life painting houses alone, and my current site radio just isn't up to the job. A tight bass and a smooth top end is the sort of sound I like, and the noise of a brush or roller is all it will be competing with !
I already have a few items - a pair of 6.5" Hertz DXC 165 coax speakers and a pair of 4" Dls UP4 component speakers. Both are car speakers and I have not found any info on cabinet sizing for them.
I have 2 amps - an SMSL SA36 and an SMSL SA98 (20wpc and 160wpc claimed outputs).
So far I have tried to mock up some 'cabinets' from 18mm mdf that will eventually be fixed into the toolbox and the largest internal size I can get is approx 140 wide x 165 tall x and 110mm deep if I make separate boxes for each, or a little over double if I make just one for both.
However, the sound produced is not good - no bass, too much rather muddled mid and rather sharp treble. I tried putting some foam carpet underlay in but that didn't improve things much. As the boxes are just a first attempt I have not made any real effort to seal them up which I guess may help.
So, my big question is where do I start trying to get a good sound (bearing in mind the laws of physics re bass..) - am I aiming for the impossible ?
I would rather keep the spending to a minimum but also want this to work so am happy to throw some cash at it - while I would like to do it myself, I know nothing about the technical side, so treat me like the beginner I am !
Many thanks for reading this far, and even more for any replies and help.
I spend a lot of my working life painting houses alone, and my current site radio just isn't up to the job. A tight bass and a smooth top end is the sort of sound I like, and the noise of a brush or roller is all it will be competing with !
unfortunately theseconditions are difficult .... in an emty room acoustic is a nightmare ... and te first thing to master is where to put the speaker to minimise standing waves ... for this you will have to experiment
for speaker desing try I think you may copy a fair quality bookshelf speaker .. and in these condition you may not need stereo at all ... a better mono will give you better result.
unfortunately theseconditions are difficult .... in an emty room acoustic is a nightmare ... and te first thing to master is where to put the speaker to minimise standing waves ... for this you will have to experiment
for speaker desing try I think you may copy a fair quality bookshelf speaker .. and in these condition you may not need stereo at all ... a better mono will give you better result.
Car speakers require a large box or open baffle. I've got away with stuffing the enclosure with fiberglass insulation..
This is a unit I built a while back. Great bass but may need a tweet according to taste. I upgraded the battery to a lithium. Sounds much bigger than it is..
https://imageshack.com/a/YtUl/1
This is a unit I built a while back. Great bass but may need a tweet according to taste. I upgraded the battery to a lithium. Sounds much bigger than it is..
https://imageshack.com/a/YtUl/1
Right now and with most of my work I am in occupied houses, so usually there is a carpet and a pile of furniture in the middle of the room making this less of an issue. What I have now is a chesty noise rather than music, so this is my first priority !
I agree about the stereo bit - given that the drive units will be only a few mm apart there isn't likely to be much of a sound stage.....
Your unit is sort of what i am trying to create - So how come you got great bass when I can't get any ? Maybe I should try building a bigger box just to see what that does. I want to power mine by mains so it can charge the source if needed, but the more info I get the more I'll learn about what, why and how..
Many thanks to you both for the help.
Hmmm...
I won't bother you with the details as I didn't buy anything to make it. I put it together with what was on hand so I can't really help with a scratch build but when you said toolbox...
I also like Off Grid's box. Right up your alley it looks like. Mine is the weight of an actual toolbox so maybe not so user friendly.
🙂
Attachments
This is another throw together I did. Same drivers/design as in the first one but this one is Bluetooth..
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/8619/FA32fF.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/9901/Xctveu.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/8619/FA32fF.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/9901/Xctveu.jpg
Your unit is sort of what i am trying to create - So how come you got great bass when I can't get any ?
First, for a 6.5" driver, the internal enclosure area should be ~.25 Ft. (432 sq. in.) From the dimensions you gave in your first post, there is only 155 sq. in. An enclosure of 10" x 10" x 4.5" internally would give you 450 sq. in. with some elbow room to add some stuffing.. (Thinking a sealed enclosure)
Be sure the polarity of both drivers are the same. (+ and -) If they are out of phase, it will kill the bass response big time..
For your situation, I would consider a full range driver instead of a coaxial. The tweet will drown out the mid-lows always unless it can be attenuated easily..
First, for a 6.5" driver, the internal enclosure area should be ~.25 Ft. (432 sq. in.) From the dimensions you gave in your first post, there is only 155 sq. in. An enclosure of 10" x 10" x 4.5" internally would give you 450 sq. in. with some elbow room to add some stuffing.. (Thinking a sealed enclosure)
Be sure the polarity of both drivers are the same. (+ and -) If they are out of phase, it will kill the bass response big time..
For your situation, I would consider a full range driver instead of a coaxial. The tweet will drown out the mid-lows always unless it can be attenuated easily..
> my current site radio just isn't up to the job
What is it? Point-to or cite it or something similar. An old Panasonic? The latest DeWalt job-radio?
There is a vast range of small box speakers. Have you tried any of these on the site? If the 8" tall boxes suck, and the 24" tall box is grand but not practical, you have narrowed the range of likely sizes.
> pair of 6.5" ...have not found any info ... approx 140 wide x 165 tall x and 110mm deep
If you do not know ANYthing about the speakers:
Advertised diameter, times 1.1, cubed. That will "work", unless they are exceptionally low efficiency. Obviously it can not be "optimium" for all speakers of that size.
6.5", *1.1, cubed, is 365 cubic inches. (In-sight of OffGrid's 432ci; he seems to like 1.16X.)
This IS "the laws of physics re bass" and the general average ~~1% efficiency of domestic speakers. Also limited by how loud you need to play (actually how much bass excursion you need without excess midrange displacement and FM haze {muddled mid}).
Car speakers may be tuned for a "larger" box, such as the inside of a car door. Hmmm... 4"x24"x36" is 3400ci, far larger than any box here (nearly "infinite" for speakers this size).
Your dimensions, 140mm 165mm 110mm or 5.5" 6.5" 4.33"-- none of the numbers are bigger than the speaker, certainly not 1.1-1.16X bigger.
Your box, 155ci, un-cubed is 5.37", divide by 1.1 is 4.9". This points to a 4" or 4.5" speaker.
Fostex FE-103 is a low-price pretty smooth Four. But in smaller boxes it aint going to go to 100Hz, nor make a lot of boom (even the boom of a flat sound at reasonable level in a larger room).
FWIW, a (US) Gallon paint-can is 231ci, a fair back-"box" for a 5.5" or 5" driver. A 5-gal tub calculates near 9", would work for an Eight. Does not save any space, but may fit your cargo-bay arrangement. The speaker naturally throws on the ceiling, but I suspect many car-door speakers are tuned for off-axis listening (being aimed at your knees). You could store stuff inside, take it out for best bass. A few spare rags is damping.
You have some leverage by going mono, though double box-volume on one driver is only a half-octave(?) more bass. Since you are working around the walls and not always re-aiming a stereo pair, you will rarely be in the stereo Sweet Spot, and mono may be marginally more compact.
A tricky-trick: car speakers can work infinite baffle. Bang two 6.5" holes in a board, open a window, and shut it on the board. Bass will not be bumped-up (or not much), but will extend very deep. Obviously no-good for inside rooms. Or when painting window trim. Annoys the neighbors. Needs some form of width adjustment to nearly-close the side-gaps (small gap does no harm).
What is it? Point-to or cite it or something similar. An old Panasonic? The latest DeWalt job-radio?
There is a vast range of small box speakers. Have you tried any of these on the site? If the 8" tall boxes suck, and the 24" tall box is grand but not practical, you have narrowed the range of likely sizes.
> pair of 6.5" ...have not found any info ... approx 140 wide x 165 tall x and 110mm deep
If you do not know ANYthing about the speakers:
Advertised diameter, times 1.1, cubed. That will "work", unless they are exceptionally low efficiency. Obviously it can not be "optimium" for all speakers of that size.
6.5", *1.1, cubed, is 365 cubic inches. (In-sight of OffGrid's 432ci; he seems to like 1.16X.)
This IS "the laws of physics re bass" and the general average ~~1% efficiency of domestic speakers. Also limited by how loud you need to play (actually how much bass excursion you need without excess midrange displacement and FM haze {muddled mid}).
Car speakers may be tuned for a "larger" box, such as the inside of a car door. Hmmm... 4"x24"x36" is 3400ci, far larger than any box here (nearly "infinite" for speakers this size).
Your dimensions, 140mm 165mm 110mm or 5.5" 6.5" 4.33"-- none of the numbers are bigger than the speaker, certainly not 1.1-1.16X bigger.
Your box, 155ci, un-cubed is 5.37", divide by 1.1 is 4.9". This points to a 4" or 4.5" speaker.
Fostex FE-103 is a low-price pretty smooth Four. But in smaller boxes it aint going to go to 100Hz, nor make a lot of boom (even the boom of a flat sound at reasonable level in a larger room).
FWIW, a (US) Gallon paint-can is 231ci, a fair back-"box" for a 5.5" or 5" driver. A 5-gal tub calculates near 9", would work for an Eight. Does not save any space, but may fit your cargo-bay arrangement. The speaker naturally throws on the ceiling, but I suspect many car-door speakers are tuned for off-axis listening (being aimed at your knees). You could store stuff inside, take it out for best bass. A few spare rags is damping.
You have some leverage by going mono, though double box-volume on one driver is only a half-octave(?) more bass. Since you are working around the walls and not always re-aiming a stereo pair, you will rarely be in the stereo Sweet Spot, and mono may be marginally more compact.
A tricky-trick: car speakers can work infinite baffle. Bang two 6.5" holes in a board, open a window, and shut it on the board. Bass will not be bumped-up (or not much), but will extend very deep. Obviously no-good for inside rooms. Or when painting window trim. Annoys the neighbors. Needs some form of width adjustment to nearly-close the side-gaps (small gap does no harm).
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OK, at last I have some idea why things are not right - wring size and wrong speakers.. Not a good start ! Thanks again for your help.
> my current site radio just isn't up to the job
What is it? Point-to or cite it or something similar. An old Panasonic? The latest DeWalt job-radio?
There is a vast range of small box speakers. Have you tried any of these on the site? If the 8" tall boxes suck, and the 24" tall box is grand but not practical, you have narrowed the range of likely sizes.
> pair of 6.5" ...have not found any info ... approx 140 wide x 165 tall x and 110mm deep
If you do not know ANYthing about the speakers:
Advertised diameter, times 1.1, cubed. That will "work", unless they are exceptionally low efficiency. Obviously it can not be "optimium" for all speakers of that size.
6.5", *1.1, cubed, is 365 cubic inches. (In-sight of OffGrid's 432ci; he seems to like 1.16X.)
This IS "the laws of physics re bass" and the general average ~~1% efficiency of domestic speakers. Also limited by how loud you need to play (actually how much bass excursion you need without excess midrange displacement and FM haze {muddled mid}).
Car speakers may be tuned for a "larger" box, such as the inside of a car door. Hmmm... 4"x24"x36" is 3400ci, far larger than any box here (nearly "infinite" for speakers this size).
Your dimensions, 140mm 165mm 110mm or 5.5" 6.5" 4.33"-- none of the numbers are bigger than the speaker, certainly not 1.1-1.16X bigger.
Your box, 155ci, un-cubed is 5.37", divide by 1.1 is 4.9". This points to a 4" or 4.5" speaker.
Fostex FE-103 is a low-price pretty smooth Four. But in smaller boxes it aint going to go to 100Hz, nor make a lot of boom (even the boom of a flat sound at reasonable level in a larger room).
FWIW, a (US) Gallon paint-can is 231ci, a fair back-"box" for a 5.5" or 5" driver. A 5-gal tub calculates near 9", would work for an Eight. Does not save any space, but may fit your cargo-bay arrangement. The speaker naturally throws on the ceiling, but I suspect many car-door speakers are tuned for off-axis listening (being aimed at your knees). You could store stuff inside, take it out for best bass. A few spare rags is damping.
You have some leverage by going mono, though double box-volume on one driver is only a half-octave(?) more bass. Since you are working around the walls and not always re-aiming a stereo pair, you will rarely be in the stereo Sweet Spot, and mono may be marginally more compact.
A tricky-trick: car speakers can work infinite baffle. Bang two 6.5" holes in a board, open a window, and shut it on the board. Bass will not be bumped-up (or not much), but will extend very deep. Obviously no-good for inside rooms. Or when painting window trim. Annoys the neighbors. Needs some form of width adjustment to nearly-close the side-gaps (small gap does no harm).
My current radio is a Makita DAB, so the newest model available in the UK. It has a boomy muddy sound - with careful positioning it can be ok, but how much time does one spend on site positioning the radio ?
http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m-t-EvUWxjw7Zn2Tu82B6rg.jpg
My proposed toolbox is a Festool Systainer 3
https://assets.festool.com/media/zoom_sys_sysmiditloc_499621_z_01b.jpg?RenditionID=280
Sadly annoying the neighbours is not allowed - my clients are often in very smart locations, so quiet-but-quality sounds is what I want..
Got to dash, as the school run beckons then off to work with my lousy sounds..
All your help is much appreciated - Thanks !
Here's another option..
I used a 10" car subwoofer box and installed a 6.5" Single Point Stereo Ceiling Speaker in it. (Gotta router the opening out a little for the driver to fit) Added a handle and a pouch on the back to carry things in. A nice little analog amp with some tone control makes it sound really good! *Avoid a digital amp if you plan to use an FM receiver for your audio source*. If you want to use the grid power, use a small power supply and keep it in the pouch..
This is the driver I used. I tried a much more expensive unit but the cost difference wasn't worth it. For general use, these are fine..
MCM Custom Audio 6 1/2'' Single Point Stereo Ceiling Speaker - 50W RMS | 50-14020 (5014020) | MCM Custom Audio
This is a suggested amp. I love these little things..
https://www.amazon.com/Lepy-Amplifi...ie=UTF8&qid=1488587725&sr=8-2&keywords=lp-808
This will blow away most all of the "job" units on the market! (And much cheaper..) Here's a few pics and use your imagination..
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/103/T2p9Q5.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/6282/cgFRxb.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img905/5903/RNaQjt.jpg
I used a 10" car subwoofer box and installed a 6.5" Single Point Stereo Ceiling Speaker in it. (Gotta router the opening out a little for the driver to fit) Added a handle and a pouch on the back to carry things in. A nice little analog amp with some tone control makes it sound really good! *Avoid a digital amp if you plan to use an FM receiver for your audio source*. If you want to use the grid power, use a small power supply and keep it in the pouch..
This is the driver I used. I tried a much more expensive unit but the cost difference wasn't worth it. For general use, these are fine..
MCM Custom Audio 6 1/2'' Single Point Stereo Ceiling Speaker - 50W RMS | 50-14020 (5014020) | MCM Custom Audio
This is a suggested amp. I love these little things..
https://www.amazon.com/Lepy-Amplifi...ie=UTF8&qid=1488587725&sr=8-2&keywords=lp-808
This will blow away most all of the "job" units on the market! (And much cheaper..) Here's a few pics and use your imagination..
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/103/T2p9Q5.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/6282/cgFRxb.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img905/5903/RNaQjt.jpg
*Note.. The above sub box shoulda been an 8" box, not a 10"* I waited too long to edit.. My Bad!
For a quick, full function unit that sounds rather good, check this out..
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New...32706347968.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.WQV30Q
For a quick, full function unit that sounds rather good, check this out..
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New...32706347968.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.WQV30Q
Here's the hard math. (Sorry for the dead-king units.) A 50Hz wave is 20' long. A half-wave is 10' long. A box smaller than 10'x10'x10' can not absorb the back-wave of the speaker and ruins the efficiency.
But cone mass also ruins efficiency around 1KHz.
So you can build a "flat 50Hz-1KHz" (but 1% efficient) system in about 1'x1'x1'. One Cubic Foot. This has been a very popular size, from the AR-1 both back and forward in history. It works.
> Makita DAB
Pretty good reviews on Amazon UK. Not sure how many are audiophiles. Seems to score for "boom" and "indestructible", and useful battery life.
That's a half a cubic foot and apparently two drivers. Quarter CuFt each, minus radio and misc. Something has to give. I would design it for a pop-music boom around 80-90Hz, no attempt to go lower.
Love this review-snip: "Don't turn radio on before 8 o'clock it's got complaint written all over it. I've been bollocked a few times."
For very-very low acoustic level, you can add mass to the cone, drop efficiency overall, and the bass will go lower. But huge efficiency sacrifice is not a lot deeper bass. And small cones will not move enough air to be audible deep-bass, they slap. Also muddy-up any midrange you try to get from the same cone.
Not a new problem. Cubic-foot speakers are not for every living room. Scads of smaller compromises exist. I've had great pleasure from a pair of Minimus, as long as I stayed close, and did not need deep bass. Too small (cone area) for a larger room. Also a pair of ancestors of KEF large bookshelves, larger room and again little need for large 50Hz (I did not pay that price!!). These are 3/4 cubic foot, and do well in medium rooms (10'x20'x 13' office).
> a Festool Systainer 3
Another half CuFt box.
> my clients are often in very smart locations
If the joint is so smart, it should have a fab-u-lous stereo in every room? <G>
I assume you reject the obvious: headphones.
But cone mass also ruins efficiency around 1KHz.
So you can build a "flat 50Hz-1KHz" (but 1% efficient) system in about 1'x1'x1'. One Cubic Foot. This has been a very popular size, from the AR-1 both back and forward in history. It works.
> Makita DAB
Pretty good reviews on Amazon UK. Not sure how many are audiophiles. Seems to score for "boom" and "indestructible", and useful battery life.
That's a half a cubic foot and apparently two drivers. Quarter CuFt each, minus radio and misc. Something has to give. I would design it for a pop-music boom around 80-90Hz, no attempt to go lower.
Love this review-snip: "Don't turn radio on before 8 o'clock it's got complaint written all over it. I've been bollocked a few times."
For very-very low acoustic level, you can add mass to the cone, drop efficiency overall, and the bass will go lower. But huge efficiency sacrifice is not a lot deeper bass. And small cones will not move enough air to be audible deep-bass, they slap. Also muddy-up any midrange you try to get from the same cone.
Not a new problem. Cubic-foot speakers are not for every living room. Scads of smaller compromises exist. I've had great pleasure from a pair of Minimus, as long as I stayed close, and did not need deep bass. Too small (cone area) for a larger room. Also a pair of ancestors of KEF large bookshelves, larger room and again little need for large 50Hz (I did not pay that price!!). These are 3/4 cubic foot, and do well in medium rooms (10'x20'x 13' office).
> a Festool Systainer 3
Another half CuFt box.
> my clients are often in very smart locations
If the joint is so smart, it should have a fab-u-lous stereo in every room? <G>
I assume you reject the obvious: headphones.
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Greets!
Using these specs: http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Hertz_HiEnergy_HCX165.pdf
With a 70 Hz Fs, it will take a large back loaded horn to get true bass, so will be limited to a strong mid-bass at most in any semi-reasonable size cab [> 8 L], though with a 0.6 Qts [and probably higher in reality] it will still be much too large for your app.
Properly EQing the driver should get rid of the 'sharpness' and mid-bass perception will be much higher, though this comes at the expense of reduced power handling efficiency, but to shrink them down to 'fit' your tiny cabs and get actual bass, then mass quantities of digital EQ [Linkwitz Transform] is required and power handling drops to a few watts at best.
GM
Wow - so many of you taking the time to help - Thank you !
I'm afraid a lot of the clever stuff is going over my head, but I'm learning that I need to keep it simple, maybe sell off what I have and start again..
As much reading as I have had time for has pointed me towards the Fostex FF85WK and the cabinets detailed below fit into my toolbox and look to be within my skills to make
Fostex FF85WK Fullrange Speaker Driver (Transducer)
I've got one of these amps to use or a smaller (power-wise) version -
SMSL SA98E PC HiFi Stereo Digital Music MP3 Amplifier AMP 160Wx2 Power Adapter | eBay
I'll keep searching and reading as much as I can, but if anyone can point me towards any other basic plans or places to buy them from I'd be grateful - right now I have a bunch of pages open to read, mainly from this forum about the Fostex, uFonken and the like...!
PRR - your quote about the Makita radio is pretty good as far as 'Boom' goes, but I've bust mine, so it is destructible (well, I'm on my third power supply in just over a year..)
I'm afraid a lot of the clever stuff is going over my head, but I'm learning that I need to keep it simple, maybe sell off what I have and start again..
As much reading as I have had time for has pointed me towards the Fostex FF85WK and the cabinets detailed below fit into my toolbox and look to be within my skills to make
Fostex FF85WK Fullrange Speaker Driver (Transducer)
I've got one of these amps to use or a smaller (power-wise) version -
SMSL SA98E PC HiFi Stereo Digital Music MP3 Amplifier AMP 160Wx2 Power Adapter | eBay
I'll keep searching and reading as much as I can, but if anyone can point me towards any other basic plans or places to buy them from I'd be grateful - right now I have a bunch of pages open to read, mainly from this forum about the Fostex, uFonken and the like...!
PRR - your quote about the Makita radio is pretty good as far as 'Boom' goes, but I've bust mine, so it is destructible (well, I'm on my third power supply in just over a year..)
The easy answer is that you went shopping many years too late for big audio; and, what remains available, today, is the "soundbar" product for televisions.
So, if you'd like something more capable, then you'd have to diy it.
So, if you'd like something more capable, then you'd have to diy it.
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