inside the 1000 bucks with Volt drivers, etc ??? I think it costs more and the room + WAF is dictating, he can go Coffin but can not move the sofa and furnitures... The Neumann was about DSP and instead the LX so close to the sofa... (also better for neighboors in a parisian flat) but that's so ugly ! So the idea is more about close listening and dsp to solve the issue of the said bad sound that should not have occured with the R7 imo !
When the wall (wall loudspeaker) is becomming the loudspeaker there is a little less problem as well while the ideal is always to be near the loudspeakers and both of the listeners and loudspeakers far from the surfaces.
When the wall (wall loudspeaker) is becomming the loudspeaker there is a little less problem as well while the ideal is always to be near the loudspeakers and both of the listeners and loudspeakers far from the surfaces.
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You should really read the original post more carefully before offering advice. Nowhere does the OP say that either the sofa or the speakers will be near or against any walls. That's why no one else is "seeing the problem" that you see. There isn't one.
If you Just insert some technical arguments like '2pi to 4pi transition' you gain 80 points... come on'😱
Well, you earn 80 points. Do you attend to concerts in your Town or ...?
[Travel frequently to NY or Philadelphia with Plane to get in the opera hall😕😛]
[Travel frequently to NY or Philadelphia with Plane to get in the opera hall😕😛]
😀 is that he ******** transition ??? oh no; not again !
I can try : if the sofa of post #&1 is at 6 meters of the loudspeakers in a 8 meters room deep and the loudspeakers is 1 meter from the wall, what happen behind the sofa and the back wall knowing a sofa is 60 cm deep itself ? 🙂 There is room for a dog to sleep and echos !
As an Onken in a so little living room... wow, wow, wow... we are in Tokyo, with that know well mathematic rule in Japan : TLTR= TBTR * TMDTL² (which is from my japoneese book : the littlier the room = the bigger the loudspeaker = the more deaf the listener squared !)
A little VoT at max if I may ! With maybe a classic fan at the ceiling for brassing air.
With the math I' m sorting out this : the R7 can be behind the canap, sorry the sofa, directly tilted at 90 cm of each ears knowing that the average sofa is around 200 cm width.🙄 AND there are 10 cm between each ears of the listener if in the center of the sofa
Of course if the room id 5 m width the stands can be farer but the stands are not hidden behind the sofa, though the dog can sleep better !
But Damn what are the 40 cm behind the sofa are about 😕. that's what I'm trying to understand more !Wee needs photos to understand more
Have I my 80 ???? 😀
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But well the true information is about how the op and waf agree it should look.
More seriously, in the respect of the wischs :
The advice of Markkbak about the Calapamos from HumbleMadeHifi makes sense because the controlled directivity though distance may still be a problem for a good imaging. The mezzo calapamos with the 12" are not finished.
What said Indianjoe is casual and easy to do, fits all the bill for a beginner in that budget, but the looking may hurt a parisian livingroom
The open source monkey coffin makes sense too despite the little stands iirc, but the op talked about a 1000 euros budget. We are more close 3/4 K.
In the classic coffins I would go with TG with the Faital 12 classic 3 ways with the cheaper tweeter. There is also this sealed classic Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower : good sound, cheap drivers, good filtering. Coffins looking.
I still think all of this is too big and not what is needed for the good sound due to what exposed the op, but it's just my point of view knowing how are made flats where he op lives. A Calapamos for a 75 db average at best with 92 dB transcient peaks perhaps is an overkill choice. the price is also above 1000 finished. Ok I know some like big Sd speakers at low listening volume, I don't, at least I would not go there without solid knowledge of Eq and mic placements.
The Elsinore from Joe Rasmusen could have been an idea as well, drivers are cheap and filters too... but again the listening distance and it's a classic tower.
I would think twice of a loudspeaker on walls behind the sofa. I think the op is in a myth : good sound needs big Onken or big studio speakers! Myth often seen in some french book due to the hype of the old Nouvelle Revue du Son (exemple : le parcours d'un Audiophile, etc) . It's a bad idea for a flat in Paris, a better in man cave in a house.
If a good looking is the priority, then c'est une autre histoire !🙂
More seriously, in the respect of the wischs :
The advice of Markkbak about the Calapamos from HumbleMadeHifi makes sense because the controlled directivity though distance may still be a problem for a good imaging. The mezzo calapamos with the 12" are not finished.
What said Indianjoe is casual and easy to do, fits all the bill for a beginner in that budget, but the looking may hurt a parisian livingroom
The open source monkey coffin makes sense too despite the little stands iirc, but the op talked about a 1000 euros budget. We are more close 3/4 K.
In the classic coffins I would go with TG with the Faital 12 classic 3 ways with the cheaper tweeter. There is also this sealed classic Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower : good sound, cheap drivers, good filtering. Coffins looking.
I still think all of this is too big and not what is needed for the good sound due to what exposed the op, but it's just my point of view knowing how are made flats where he op lives. A Calapamos for a 75 db average at best with 92 dB transcient peaks perhaps is an overkill choice. the price is also above 1000 finished. Ok I know some like big Sd speakers at low listening volume, I don't, at least I would not go there without solid knowledge of Eq and mic placements.
The Elsinore from Joe Rasmusen could have been an idea as well, drivers are cheap and filters too... but again the listening distance and it's a classic tower.
I would think twice of a loudspeaker on walls behind the sofa. I think the op is in a myth : good sound needs big Onken or big studio speakers! Myth often seen in some french book due to the hype of the old Nouvelle Revue du Son (exemple : le parcours d'un Audiophile, etc) . It's a bad idea for a flat in Paris, a better in man cave in a house.
If a good looking is the priority, then c'est une autre histoire !🙂
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As you might have seen by now I am very critical of people hijacking threads and detouring off the main subject that the OP started. I don't think that is fair to the OP, especially in a thread like this one where he is looking for help in finding a particular speaker to build.
So as much as I would like to discuss classical music and opera with you, this is not the place for that to happen.
If you would like to start another thread for that purpose under the General Interest/Music forum I would be happy to join you there.
Going back now and reading your Post #11 regarding touthautparleur.com it now makes a lot more sense.
That is the first time I think Touthautparleur has been mentioned here and so it was not immediately apparent what the name referred to or what its significance might be.
It clearly is a very good source for DIY kits in Europe and may be of real value to the OP in his search for a speaker to build. I think you may have really help him, which is after all the purpose of the forum.
Good suppliers i use in europe are SoundImport.eu and lautsprechershop.de the last time. But touthautparleur.com has a very good reputation down here, so it should also be a good shop. No personal experience altough.
Some off-topic and related conversation has been removed. The team is aware of all matters relating to this thread, and some specific issues are currently under review. If there are any questions, please use the PM system or the post report system to contact the team.Thanks for your input.
I see I need to make a few points clearer:
- KEF R7 is just what I would buy if I did not build anything. I haven't heard them in the room. I believe they would sound spectacular, but it's 3000 euros.
- amps are ncore nc400, so I don't think I need more or better.
- dac is a kardas tone board, again, I don't think better is needed.
- I also have a minidsp SHD which I am not using yet to its full potential. I specifically bought this for active crossover, EQ and dirac. The aim is to correct as much as possible the imperfect room I have to contend with. Its still in its box.
Main problems are WIRES: room has two doors on one side and three full size windows opening on the other side, which gives me only one real good practical speakers position : the end of the room. Unless someone has an idea to hide hose sized speaker cables from running across the door?
This is the listening position.Wee needs photos to understand more
Have I my 80 ???? 😀
someone sitting in this couch would be 6m away from the speakers. My current speakers are actually on the opposite, 1m from the back wall and 1m from the side walls.
I mentioned Onken because they appeal my aestehiscism, and they seem "easy" to build. Not out of some audiophile fetishism.
I have been looking at Joseph Crowne plans for instance, they look great.
Attachments
Hello there,
Ok lost in translation I had understood you bought the R7 but you didn't appreciate it for some reason (looking, sound too weak,..)
I tried to advice within your budget. It's not easy cause often the bigger also the more expensive.
DAC and amp are good enough imho. the difficulty is definitly the layout of your room that ask special care... and DSP can not do all... but again for critical listening, one can bring a chair closer for a better soundstage and be not near the walls.
flat wires & carpets ? Try to drop a drawing for people to understand more and imho you don't need a big coffin for powerful and good sound, even more if your listening room is the family living.
Is 1000 euros for a standalone loudspeaker or the pair ? For the big coffin you will have hard moment to find less than 200 euros wood for thin ply that avoid veenering.
I really look twice at the idea of on wall speakers or second hand as some written above to stay in your budget. Finally, even the Elsinore, the Faital 12 TG, the 12.3 loudspeakers will cost more... A first diy loudspeakers is also always expensive due to the tries & errors, tools, etc. If wifey is open for something casual the refurbished old studio (you will not fond a JBL here cheap on Le Bon Coin) tor IndiaJoe idea above then I wil dig in that direction too.
A guy here Zvu have improved some Kefs speakers R300 you can find cheap second hand but they are classic towers. I have a classic tower in my L-R which is a little bigger than your and believe me : my neighbors would like to murder me... and they hit tight and not boomy (my loudspeakers)
Ok lost in translation I had understood you bought the R7 but you didn't appreciate it for some reason (looking, sound too weak,..)
I tried to advice within your budget. It's not easy cause often the bigger also the more expensive.
DAC and amp are good enough imho. the difficulty is definitly the layout of your room that ask special care... and DSP can not do all... but again for critical listening, one can bring a chair closer for a better soundstage and be not near the walls.
flat wires & carpets ? Try to drop a drawing for people to understand more and imho you don't need a big coffin for powerful and good sound, even more if your listening room is the family living.
Is 1000 euros for a standalone loudspeaker or the pair ? For the big coffin you will have hard moment to find less than 200 euros wood for thin ply that avoid veenering.
I really look twice at the idea of on wall speakers or second hand as some written above to stay in your budget. Finally, even the Elsinore, the Faital 12 TG, the 12.3 loudspeakers will cost more... A first diy loudspeakers is also always expensive due to the tries & errors, tools, etc. If wifey is open for something casual the refurbished old studio (you will not fond a JBL here cheap on Le Bon Coin) tor IndiaJoe idea above then I wil dig in that direction too.
A guy here Zvu have improved some Kefs speakers R300 you can find cheap second hand but they are classic towers. I have a classic tower in my L-R which is a little bigger than your and believe me : my neighbors would like to murder me... and they hit tight and not boomy (my loudspeakers)
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1000 euros for the material sounded good enough. Should I plan to spend more ? Decent woofers, horns and compression did not seem that expensive. Am I kidding myself?
ah just seen the photograph : ok, it's clearer now about the back wall and the sofa !
Troels Gravsen made something than can save your life here, I still think the sound could come from the back wall : Bookshelf-3WC ; not a too much complex wood working too if helped in the local participatif shop (if you have an adress I'm interested too)
Yes , bill can go fast : ply wood is expensive, MDF needs veenering or good painting and so on. You can have to begin again a cut : more cut, more wood, etc...
Edit : Joseph Crowe is a serious guy. But if you think about the classic ONKEN (they have several size) it's way too big sound for your room. Now if you only talk of Onken principle, that's another story too : they can be made all size !
Troels Gravsen made something than can save your life here, I still think the sound could come from the back wall : Bookshelf-3WC ; not a too much complex wood working too if helped in the local participatif shop (if you have an adress I'm interested too)
Yes , bill can go fast : ply wood is expensive, MDF needs veenering or good painting and so on. You can have to begin again a cut : more cut, more wood, etc...
Edit : Joseph Crowe is a serious guy. But if you think about the classic ONKEN (they have several size) it's way too big sound for your room. Now if you only talk of Onken principle, that's another story too : they can be made all size !
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Following my own suggestion, I skimmed local sales and bought an old pair of Yamaha boxes 🙂
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/7/322247/S115IIIE.pdf
Club series S115IIIA.
Manual says: 2" and 15" drivers. 1.4kHz crossover, 99dB, 50-16kHz.*
The pair was $120. That seems worth it just for the horns. Everything else is a bonus. Old gear like this abounds - sometimes with blown drivers, sometimes near mint.
If the OP picked up something similar, they could:
a) Use the vintage 2" and 15" as the core (midrange) of a large JBL 43xx style monitor.
That is: put them in a huge box, adding a bullet tweeter and additional (robust) LF driver.
OR
b) do essentially the same thing, but upgrading incrementally.
e.g. get a DSP and go active ...then add bullet tweeters ...then reskin the boxes with nice ply** ...then build subs.
So eventually you'd have an active 4-way, and the original components would be just the core (midrange).
*I'm guessing this is slightly "creative" and they are weak at the frequency extremes.
**There are lots of well-illustrated examples online of people refurbishing old PA boxes. Patience and sandpaper > skill.
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