I got a pair of the Pyles in. As promised, here are my impressions:
Stamped steel basket which is expected for a driver at this price range. Has a significant amount of ringing to it, but I would imagine it may not be an issue at the frequencies that mine will be operating in. We will see.
The dustcap is a bit ugly, yes. But who cares? I guess I can paint it later if I want. If anything one might be a bit embarrassed with the name Pyle on the cone. But its the sound that matters, right? The glue around the dust cap looks clean. The same can not be said of the glue for the rubber gasket. I doubt it really affects anything though. The glue on the spider is also a little sloppy, both around the cone and on the outer perimeter on the frame. Nothing too horrible though. I like the accordion surround, I prefer it for drivers with smaller excursion.
The suspension is very stiff and the magnet is nice and hefty at 70oz. Cone is paper treated and both the cone and surround look very durable. Overall the soft parts appear to be very light. Strong motor and low moving mass suggests it should do very well open baffle. It does have spring loaded terminals (gold) which is a nice touch. They are cheap, but I have seen a lot worse to be honest. Also interestingly the terminal strip is mounted with a screw rather than a rivet which is common. Don't know if it has any advantage, but I thought I would note.
Overall the quality is pretty average. For the price, I think what you get is a steal. Honestly I would expect a driver like this to be double the cost I paid for. $38 each at amazon with free super saver shipping (which took a bit over a week). If you need to know anything else. Please feel free to ask.
Stamped steel basket which is expected for a driver at this price range. Has a significant amount of ringing to it, but I would imagine it may not be an issue at the frequencies that mine will be operating in. We will see.
The dustcap is a bit ugly, yes. But who cares? I guess I can paint it later if I want. If anything one might be a bit embarrassed with the name Pyle on the cone. But its the sound that matters, right? The glue around the dust cap looks clean. The same can not be said of the glue for the rubber gasket. I doubt it really affects anything though. The glue on the spider is also a little sloppy, both around the cone and on the outer perimeter on the frame. Nothing too horrible though. I like the accordion surround, I prefer it for drivers with smaller excursion.
The suspension is very stiff and the magnet is nice and hefty at 70oz. Cone is paper treated and both the cone and surround look very durable. Overall the soft parts appear to be very light. Strong motor and low moving mass suggests it should do very well open baffle. It does have spring loaded terminals (gold) which is a nice touch. They are cheap, but I have seen a lot worse to be honest. Also interestingly the terminal strip is mounted with a screw rather than a rivet which is common. Don't know if it has any advantage, but I thought I would note.
Overall the quality is pretty average. For the price, I think what you get is a steal. Honestly I would expect a driver like this to be double the cost I paid for. $38 each at amazon with free super saver shipping (which took a bit over a week). If you need to know anything else. Please feel free to ask.
I went ahead and got everything hooked up...
First of all, the FF85KeNs sound absolutely phenomenal. I haven't been listening for long, but one thing is for sure that these things are VERY revealing. I was expecting them to have this characteristic, but not at this level. I'm not completely sure if I want to keep them yet simply because they have brought out the worst of mediocre recordings in my collection. I am not quite ready to simply abandon half of my music
They have an incredible sound stage. Also very good micro and macro dynamics for such a tiny speaker. In addition, they are not fatiguing or do they have the imfamous fostex "shout" that I have heard about. Extremely smooth sounding, and I suspect its because of Dave's treatment. Also, suprisingly they handle genres like rock very well.
He wasn't kidding when he said they can rival quality tweeters. They definitely have wonderful sparkle to them, and nothing seems to be missing on the top end.
As far as the woofers go. I definitely need more power in the future. Currently they are each receiving only 30 watts each. I will be upgrading eventually to 100 watts each for head room. The FRs don't seem to be straining at all at higher levels with the 400hz crossover point. The woofers have great bass with a little EQ, enough for my tastes. Cone movement is controlled with music, only reaching about 2-3mm P-P with heavy bass passages.
However, they do leave a bit to be desired on the top end. Crossing them over above ~150hz simply doesn't sound very good. So right now I have a small gap in the frequency response. Not too big of a deal for my tastes. Over all the performance of the woofers is very good for the price, with great impact. The higher crossover point doesn't really steer the sound stage down as many led me to believe.
One more thing I forgot to mention. They are currently operating WITHOUT the wings because of a mistake I made when cutting. Being a college student, I only had access to a circular saw and router. I got a little careless with the circular saw and screwed up on one of my cuts. Needless to say I didn't have any more wood. However, I like the configuration very much and will likely keep them wingless for now.
First of all, the FF85KeNs sound absolutely phenomenal. I haven't been listening for long, but one thing is for sure that these things are VERY revealing. I was expecting them to have this characteristic, but not at this level. I'm not completely sure if I want to keep them yet simply because they have brought out the worst of mediocre recordings in my collection. I am not quite ready to simply abandon half of my music
They have an incredible sound stage. Also very good micro and macro dynamics for such a tiny speaker. In addition, they are not fatiguing or do they have the imfamous fostex "shout" that I have heard about. Extremely smooth sounding, and I suspect its because of Dave's treatment. Also, suprisingly they handle genres like rock very well.
He wasn't kidding when he said they can rival quality tweeters. They definitely have wonderful sparkle to them, and nothing seems to be missing on the top end.
As far as the woofers go. I definitely need more power in the future. Currently they are each receiving only 30 watts each. I will be upgrading eventually to 100 watts each for head room. The FRs don't seem to be straining at all at higher levels with the 400hz crossover point. The woofers have great bass with a little EQ, enough for my tastes. Cone movement is controlled with music, only reaching about 2-3mm P-P with heavy bass passages.
However, they do leave a bit to be desired on the top end. Crossing them over above ~150hz simply doesn't sound very good. So right now I have a small gap in the frequency response. Not too big of a deal for my tastes. Over all the performance of the woofers is very good for the price, with great impact. The higher crossover point doesn't really steer the sound stage down as many led me to believe.
One more thing I forgot to mention. They are currently operating WITHOUT the wings because of a mistake I made when cutting. Being a college student, I only had access to a circular saw and router. I got a little careless with the circular saw and screwed up on one of my cuts. Needless to say I didn't have any more wood. However, I like the configuration very much and will likely keep them wingless for now.
Aww man.. I've got 4 of those Pyles in original boxes I would have been willing to sell ya for even cheaper than you paid. Hardly used.. just played around with OB for about a week and put them back up. Wish I would have seen this beforehand, but oh well. Nice OB's btw! Those FF85's do seem like really nice drivers.
These woofers are definitely sounding better by the hour. I gave them a little exercise while I was at the library studying for about 6 hours with a 15hz test tone at low volume.
I don't think the crossover point is going to budge for now. Currently its set at ~140hz and I am enjoying the blend they have with the FRs. I don't really feel like I am missing much from the recording in that range. After all, its a crossover not a brick wall
Also, the bass is really nice even with no EQ. I haven't played anything that really made me miss deep bass yet. Even playing Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" album was quite satisfying from beginning to end. The track with the clocks going off (Time?) is eerily life like. "Money" also has that same quality with all the registers going off in the beginning.
I think I may have some wiggle room as far as the FF85s go. They don't really move at all even with heavy music crossed over at ~350hz now. I will slowly bring the crossover point lower once I am confident that I they have the mechanical head room.
One final note for now. I think I am going to end up keeping the Fostex and just listen to good recordings with them After all, I have other rigs for the rest of my collection ( *cough* car).
I don't think the crossover point is going to budge for now. Currently its set at ~140hz and I am enjoying the blend they have with the FRs. I don't really feel like I am missing much from the recording in that range. After all, its a crossover not a brick wall
Also, the bass is really nice even with no EQ. I haven't played anything that really made me miss deep bass yet. Even playing Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" album was quite satisfying from beginning to end. The track with the clocks going off (Time?) is eerily life like. "Money" also has that same quality with all the registers going off in the beginning.
I think I may have some wiggle room as far as the FF85s go. They don't really move at all even with heavy music crossed over at ~350hz now. I will slowly bring the crossover point lower once I am confident that I they have the mechanical head room.
One final note for now. I think I am going to end up keeping the Fostex and just listen to good recordings with them
After all, I have other rigs for the rest of my collection ( *cough* car).Yup they could definitely benefit from dampening. I think I am going to use Duct seal for dampening. I will keep you updated as they break in more.lazenna said:
I have also come to the conclusion that the FF85s are just as smooth and non-fatiguing as the Pioneer B20s I had before, but MUCH more detailed obviously. I am in love with full range again
One thing I forgot to mention is that the Pyles have motor/mechanical noise, pretty average or slightly louder than average with my experience. Not to big of a deal, not audible to my ears when playing music at the listening position.
I lowered the crossover point on the FF85s today. Went all the way down to 200hz and they weren't to strained at all only moving a fraction of a mm while playing Radiohead (did very well with complicated tracks), the Doors, or the Beatles. Still didn't want to take a chance, nor did I want to strain them more than they needed to be. Currently they are crossed over at 300hz and they barely move at all with pretty much everything I throw at them. Obviously wasn't playing them at live levels, but they were plenty loud, probably around 100db average in my 12 x 15 foot room.
So on that note, I think a 12db/octave crossover at 300hz is just fine and dandy for most applications playing music open baffle. Unless of course you are trying to fill a massive living room. In that case the 400hz would be better suited, better yet a bigger driver.
Also, I have found a new problem moving so much air in a tiny room. EVERYTHING buzzes, from picture frames to the doors themselves
Cheers!
I lowered the crossover point on the FF85s today. Went all the way down to 200hz and they weren't to strained at all only moving a fraction of a mm while playing Radiohead (did very well with complicated tracks), the Doors, or the Beatles. Still didn't want to take a chance, nor did I want to strain them more than they needed to be. Currently they are crossed over at 300hz and they barely move at all with pretty much everything I throw at them. Obviously wasn't playing them at live levels, but they were plenty loud, probably around 100db average in my 12 x 15 foot room.
So on that note, I think a 12db/octave crossover at 300hz is just fine and dandy for most applications playing music open baffle. Unless of course you are trying to fill a massive living room. In that case the 400hz would be better suited, better yet a bigger driver.
Also, I have found a new problem moving so much air in a tiny room. EVERYTHING buzzes, from picture frames to the doors themselves
Cheers!
Yeah I haven't really noticed anything sticking out like a sore thumb. Everything is very smooth and balanced.seanzozo said:
Playing some Jazz now. Glorious! I guess I COULD add some equalization and more power for the low end. But I ask myself, why? I think it sounds beautiful as is. I will probably do some light modifications to the woofers, but they will be purely mechanical. I have been looking into removing the dust cap and some basket modifications.
I am very happy with the results. Can't thank Dave enough for the baby Fostexs. Every time I play something new I am impressed all over again. I would also like to thank Martin King for his fabulous OB articles. They were a lot of help.
Last but certainly not least, you, seanzozo! Great help from beginning to end, can not thank you enough!
UPDATE
First off, I upgraded to two Dayton plate amps, which do 170 watts at 8 ohms and 240w at 4 ohms. I spent a couple hours doing some minor modifications to the bass drivers. I did two things:
1.) I added some Cascade Audio engineering VBMAX sound deadening to the frames. A car audio vibration dampener Being stamped steal, they had a significant amount of ringing to them. I added some to all the spokes and added some around the perimeter where the magnet joins the frame. Just knocking it with my fist I could I already tell it was going to make a big difference; Very solid and no ringing whatsoever. I started playing music and WOW. What a difference, the upper response (150hz+) of the drivers was cleaned up quite a bit to my ears. Was surprised at how significant it was. DEFINITELY recommend it! This should be the very first thing you should do before you even play them. But this was only part of the equation. I turned off the music and did the following.
2.) I added 10 ohms (two 20 ohm 20 watt resisters in parallel) in series with each driver. To raise QES, and therefore QTS.
All I can say is, WOW. HUGE difference. Before since there as a rising response, it really brought out the worse of the Pyles, particularly when crossed over high as previously mentioned. Now that the bass is more full and extended (easily to ~40hz to my ear), the pyles sound MUCH better and are now crossed over higher at about 160-170hz with no issues. Interestingly enough, I found my self pushing them a lot less, mechanically, since the presence of the low end allowed me to turn the gain down. Not to mention the amplifiers are now running a at 8 ohms, so they run cooler.
WONDERFUL macro and micro dynamics , dear God this is music. Eric Clapton Unplugged in particular was breath taking. The speakers are complete. Or should I say, what speakers? They completely disappear into the room!
Cheers!!! Long live music!
First off, I upgraded to two Dayton plate amps, which do 170 watts at 8 ohms and 240w at 4 ohms. I spent a couple hours doing some minor modifications to the bass drivers. I did two things:
1.) I added some Cascade Audio engineering VBMAX sound deadening to the frames. A car audio vibration dampener Being stamped steal, they had a significant amount of ringing to them. I added some to all the spokes and added some around the perimeter where the magnet joins the frame. Just knocking it with my fist I could I already tell it was going to make a big difference; Very solid and no ringing whatsoever. I started playing music and WOW. What a difference, the upper response (150hz+) of the drivers was cleaned up quite a bit to my ears. Was surprised at how significant it was. DEFINITELY recommend it! This should be the very first thing you should do before you even play them. But this was only part of the equation. I turned off the music and did the following.
2.) I added 10 ohms (two 20 ohm 20 watt resisters in parallel) in series with each driver. To raise QES, and therefore QTS.
All I can say is, WOW. HUGE difference. Before since there as a rising response, it really brought out the worse of the Pyles, particularly when crossed over high as previously mentioned. Now that the bass is more full and extended (easily to ~40hz to my ear), the pyles sound MUCH better and are now crossed over higher at about 160-170hz with no issues. Interestingly enough, I found my self pushing them a lot less, mechanically, since the presence of the low end allowed me to turn the gain down. Not to mention the amplifiers are now running a at 8 ohms, so they run cooler.
WONDERFUL macro and micro dynamics , dear God this is music. Eric Clapton Unplugged in particular was breath taking. The speakers are complete. Or should I say, what speakers? They completely disappear into the room!
Cheers!!! Long live music!
Next on the docket
When you next decide to "do" something, EnABL the woofers too. You have the basic patterns needed on the Fostex drivers. They just need to be scaled up and applied. Check Dave's site to obtain a kit for materials from Ed LaFontaine... $30 for enough to do your four woofers and all of the rest of the speakers in your dorm.
The difference will be that the Pyle's will disappear, with the Bass knit into the Fostex drivers and, you will easily be able to cross them over at 300 Hz or higher, without steering effects coming into play. They will have a dispersion width controlled by the angle of the cones and higher frequencies will not close that down. Plus, all trace of harshness will disappear. Plus, you CAN do it your self.
When you next decide to "do" something, EnABL the woofers too. You have the basic patterns needed on the Fostex drivers. They just need to be scaled up and applied. Check Dave's site to obtain a kit for materials from Ed LaFontaine... $30 for enough to do your four woofers and all of the rest of the speakers in your dorm.
The difference will be that the Pyle's will disappear, with the Bass knit into the Fostex drivers and, you will easily be able to cross them over at 300 Hz or higher, without steering effects coming into play. They will have a dispersion width controlled by the angle of the cones and higher frequencies will not close that down. Plus, all trace of harshness will disappear. Plus, you CAN do it your self.
This looks like a really great project to me. Experimenting with the resistors and switching to a more powerful amp appears to have made a very positive difference in the bass. I can only imagine how rich and full those woofers must sound in your relatively small room. Not surprised everything buzzes. LOL. The fr charts were great to see. Wonder if the dip in response around 1.5khz improves sound quality by reducing sibilance... or if it reveals itself at all in real world listening?
Even tho it took a lot of research and fine tuning ultimately you've built something that probably sounds quite incredible for not so much money. One day you may find a friend willing to let you borrow his expensive B&Ws (or other expensive hi end speakers) for a listen. Don't be surprised if they sound like their woofers are broken... or their tweeters are blown. Enjoy!
Godzilla
Even tho it took a lot of research and fine tuning ultimately you've built something that probably sounds quite incredible for not so much money. One day you may find a friend willing to let you borrow his expensive B&Ws (or other expensive hi end speakers) for a listen. Don't be surprised if they sound like their woofers are broken... or their tweeters are blown. Enjoy!
Godzilla
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