This might be interesting to some....
Following image shows DIs of midrange and tweeter individually, total DI of the speaker with the crossover when only Horizontal responses are factored in, and total DI of the speaker with the crossover when Horizontal and also Vertical responses are factored in. General consensus says DIs of both should match at crossover frequency, ideally (this is often the case of midrange and tweeter+WG). Well, yes.... but here we have tilted front baffle, well behaved drivers with extended responses below and above Fc, and there are no sudden directivity changes around Fc of both midrange and tweeter.
This is the case where crossover topologies with shallow slopes come into play and offer good solution. Considering crossover frequency ~3kHz, LR2 crossover helps to blend these two different directivity sources.
Following image shows DIs of midrange and tweeter individually, total DI of the speaker with the crossover when only Horizontal responses are factored in, and total DI of the speaker with the crossover when Horizontal and also Vertical responses are factored in. General consensus says DIs of both should match at crossover frequency, ideally (this is often the case of midrange and tweeter+WG). Well, yes.... but here we have tilted front baffle, well behaved drivers with extended responses below and above Fc, and there are no sudden directivity changes around Fc of both midrange and tweeter.
This is the case where crossover topologies with shallow slopes come into play and offer good solution. Considering crossover frequency ~3kHz, LR2 crossover helps to blend these two different directivity sources.
Attachments
I am yet to assemble the crossover and start listening tests. With 21W+6600+WG 2way I spent quite some time, and also few hifi friends had a change to listen.
2way: 21W is excellent bass driver, midrange is warmer and somewhat laid back, which makes it easy to listen, it is relaxing, but also less articulate and clear or transparent. I attribute this to the cone material, as I heard the same same characteristics in 18W/8545K as well. I can imagine that versions with woven cone or poly sounded more transparent in the midrange but regretfully they are not available anymore. WG provided seamless matching of tweeter to woofer and in that regard I liked it a lot. So 8" + WG concept works great and I just wish to find 8" capable of good bass (going sufficiently low as I do not use subs) and transparent midrange. There were some threads dedicated to this....
3way: the main reason for this project was to find the application where 21W would be like fish in the water => woofer duty only. I had 12MU around and knowing this midrange I felt these two could work together well. 9800 got to my hands from hifi friend with the full recommendation, and as I started to like hard dome tweeters I wanted to find something between ultimate tweeters like bliesma/satori and so so sounding DXT etc. Allegedly 9800 sounds nothing like alu yet it has the qualities of good hard domes tweeters. Hmm I will hear soon.
2way: 21W is excellent bass driver, midrange is warmer and somewhat laid back, which makes it easy to listen, it is relaxing, but also less articulate and clear or transparent. I attribute this to the cone material, as I heard the same same characteristics in 18W/8545K as well. I can imagine that versions with woven cone or poly sounded more transparent in the midrange but regretfully they are not available anymore. WG provided seamless matching of tweeter to woofer and in that regard I liked it a lot. So 8" + WG concept works great and I just wish to find 8" capable of good bass (going sufficiently low as I do not use subs) and transparent midrange. There were some threads dedicated to this....
3way: the main reason for this project was to find the application where 21W would be like fish in the water => woofer duty only. I had 12MU around and knowing this midrange I felt these two could work together well. 9800 got to my hands from hifi friend with the full recommendation, and as I started to like hard dome tweeters I wanted to find something between ultimate tweeters like bliesma/satori and so so sounding DXT etc. Allegedly 9800 sounds nothing like alu yet it has the qualities of good hard domes tweeters. Hmm I will hear soon.
Last edited:
CAbinets are out for the veneering, so I have a time to play in Vituix, here is version with LR4 crossover for midrange-tweeter, it took just two additional crossover components to realize this.
Note excellent off axis responses, reminding solution with WG, and smoothly rising DI.
Note excellent off axis responses, reminding solution with WG, and smoothly rising DI.
Attachments
Hard to do it cheap, a good candidate could be the new E0097-08 W22NY003 50L@28 F3=35Hz . May be my next project 😉
A cheaper version could be the SICA 8H2CP.
What happen with the impedance which decrease above 10kHz ? You add a parallel ultrasonic RLC ? In series you could have better results, but change in the phase, may be need to be recalculate the crossover. Perhaps -1dB on the tweeter could give you a more natural sound.
W22N003 looks definitely good and suitable for 2way. Sica as well, as budget alternative.
The impedance above 10k is the result of the series RLC in paralle to the tweeter. It makes the trebles nicely linear. I am going to experiemnt with the values again, when cabinets are veneered. Initial crossover version had trebles little bit lower in the level, all details were there, it jsut could have been more brighter at the top end, so I will try to increase it a bit. This is something that usually takes a time, few iterations, to find the optimum.
The impedance above 10k is the result of the series RLC in paralle to the tweeter. It makes the trebles nicely linear. I am going to experiemnt with the values again, when cabinets are veneered. Initial crossover version had trebles little bit lower in the level, all details were there, it jsut could have been more brighter at the top end, so I will try to increase it a bit. This is something that usually takes a time, few iterations, to find the optimum.
Attachments
So the cabinets arrived back from the carpenter, this time with the final veneer. I installed the drivers and connected the drossover, which is still external to allow minor adjustments. The current version is in the attachment. With each listening session I like the sound more and more. 21W in 33l does very good job and stands the reputation of scan speak woofers, but 12MU and 9800 are what really shines and I like them a lot. All drivers are well merged and sound as one. I know 12MU from my previous projects yet I am still amazed by its sound. 9800 was new here for me, so it took me some time to find the right balance. It does not have the briliance of Bliesma Be but I cannot say I would miss anything, it just sounds right, it is the first alu tweeter I am happy with. I guess Bliesma alu would be good as well, and SB26ADC sounds good, hmm I need to spend some time fine tuning this one to see if I like it or not, definitely it is good tweeter for ~50eur.
Overall, it is very easy to listen speaker, it plays all genres well (of course there are limitations given only 8" woofer), it sounds smooth yet tarnsparent and detailed.
I start considering building floorstanding version, ~40l for 21W.
As MT are offset to the side, I measured horizontals on both, positive angles are with MT inside.
Overall, it is very easy to listen speaker, it plays all genres well (of course there are limitations given only 8" woofer), it sounds smooth yet tarnsparent and detailed.
I start considering building floorstanding version, ~40l for 21W.
As MT are offset to the side, I measured horizontals on both, positive angles are with MT inside.
Attachments
Last edited:
Nice phase tracking of all drivers... 🙂
This 21W according to datasheet has Cms of 1.98 mm/N which would mean that this is loose-est 8 incher on Earth. But I can see that you measured much lower number. How is the feeling when you push it by hand?
From experience I'm obsessed with low loss drivers but of course it doesn't mean this should be only criteria, there are also opposite examples.
This 21W according to datasheet has Cms of 1.98 mm/N which would mean that this is loose-est 8 incher on Earth. But I can see that you measured much lower number. How is the feeling when you push it by hand?
From experience I'm obsessed with low loss drivers but of course it doesn't mean this should be only criteria, there are also opposite examples.
21w surround is very soft, it is easy to push the cone in. Seas u22 has similarly soft and thin surround. Satoris and sb23cac have soft surrounds as well, but I definitely prefer scan speak and Seas bass. Cms is just one number, same as Qms. I had already a lot of woofers in my hands and I did not find the pattern or parameter which would give me reliable prediction of well sounding bass.
21w bass is responsive, has good low end extension, is on a softer side, which means it is not too much punchy, has the structure, so the opposite of lazy muddy suffocated one note ...other woofers.
21w bass is responsive, has good low end extension, is on a softer side, which means it is not too much punchy, has the structure, so the opposite of lazy muddy suffocated one note ...other woofers.
Last edited:
Yes, I'm asking because I have Satori MW16P on stock and it is the softest small driver available. It also sounds crazy transparent and live. And can be used as a fullrange unit or mid in large speakers. Wondering what would come out with pair of these SS 21W in bass department, Satori as a mid and some Bliesma on the top....
🙂
🙂
Mw16p in 18l BR two way had quite nice bass. Mw19 was actually worse, and wo24p even more worse. Scan speak or seas or wavecor bass is different, better, more vivid and responsive, and their midrange qualities are not anyhow worse compared to satori mw16p.
I know mw16p is popular. Anytime I used mw16p or 19p as mid a scan speak woofers, 28w t01 revelator, 22w revelator, 26w revelator, the bass was very deep but disconnected and not responsive. I always had to swap mw for anything else and all started to work. I really spent a lot of time measuring listening tweaking. Take it as a word of warning. I know, mw16 looks ideal, like the rest of satori lineup and sb. When it comes to sound, and mixing them with scan speak, it never worked for me, scan speak good bass was always gone.
I know mw16p is popular. Anytime I used mw16p or 19p as mid a scan speak woofers, 28w t01 revelator, 22w revelator, 26w revelator, the bass was very deep but disconnected and not responsive. I always had to swap mw for anything else and all started to work. I really spent a lot of time measuring listening tweaking. Take it as a word of warning. I know, mw16 looks ideal, like the rest of satori lineup and sb. When it comes to sound, and mixing them with scan speak, it never worked for me, scan speak good bass was always gone.