Hi Santiago,
Thanks for all the advice. Actually what I have in mind is to mount them on the wall. Over here in Singapore , price per square foot of floor area is more expensive than speaker cone area!!!
I intend to put the 2 markaudio in series per channel since it is only 4ohms. I would then put the Mark & Daniel in parallel with that with a resistor and a capacitor for high pass. I guess M&D crossed at a lower frequency by using a 2nd order. But will probably take your advice and cross at 1.6Khz. I will probably tune the resistor in such a way that the M&D will be slightly softer than the alpairs at 10KHz. This will ensure it will increase the overall SPL at 10KHz at no more than a few db. The increase of sound pressure level at 2kHz to be neglible. But I believe the M&D has better off axis response and resolution than the alpairs. So in principle when the off axis response of the alpairs fall below the M&D, the M&D will be more dominant. Similarly at low levels, when the low levels signals disappear from the alpairs, the M&D will fill it in.
All three will be placed on the wall in a row spaced approximately 1 foot apart facing the front. The idea of the omni reflector was on my mind for a long time. But in the end I couldn't reconciliate how to get it to blend in aesthetically with the other 2 alpairs in an mtm configuration (500 carat diamond or not). But in truth omni reflectors was my first choice. I thought about using coctail glasses as the reflector etc.
Alternatively I might place the M&D inside the box with a half cone to disperse the sound. in that way it would conceal the M&D and make it look identical to the alpairs.
🙄
've tried the pairing of alpair and the M&D. It sounds pretty good. There is a significant improvement in clarity and airiness. Thew alpair were not properly boxed up, just card board and a vase....
Maybe you can try it with a full ranger if you have one. Since you have already ansd see how it sounds...
Oon
Thanks for all the advice. Actually what I have in mind is to mount them on the wall. Over here in Singapore , price per square foot of floor area is more expensive than speaker cone area!!!
I intend to put the 2 markaudio in series per channel since it is only 4ohms. I would then put the Mark & Daniel in parallel with that with a resistor and a capacitor for high pass. I guess M&D crossed at a lower frequency by using a 2nd order. But will probably take your advice and cross at 1.6Khz. I will probably tune the resistor in such a way that the M&D will be slightly softer than the alpairs at 10KHz. This will ensure it will increase the overall SPL at 10KHz at no more than a few db. The increase of sound pressure level at 2kHz to be neglible. But I believe the M&D has better off axis response and resolution than the alpairs. So in principle when the off axis response of the alpairs fall below the M&D, the M&D will be more dominant. Similarly at low levels, when the low levels signals disappear from the alpairs, the M&D will fill it in.
All three will be placed on the wall in a row spaced approximately 1 foot apart facing the front. The idea of the omni reflector was on my mind for a long time. But in the end I couldn't reconciliate how to get it to blend in aesthetically with the other 2 alpairs in an mtm configuration (500 carat diamond or not). But in truth omni reflectors was my first choice. I thought about using coctail glasses as the reflector etc.
Alternatively I might place the M&D inside the box with a half cone to disperse the sound. in that way it would conceal the M&D and make it look identical to the alpairs.
🙄
've tried the pairing of alpair and the M&D. It sounds pretty good. There is a significant improvement in clarity and airiness. Thew alpair were not properly boxed up, just card board and a vase....
Maybe you can try it with a full ranger if you have one. Since you have already ansd see how it sounds...
Oon
Hey Oon,
so let me see if i'm getting this right....
if you're running the Alpairs in series you'll be getting an effective 87-88dB efficiency relative to 2.83v input, while the dm4 is running at about 95dB at 10kHz, and you plan to attenuate the dm4 by about how much? 10dB or so?
which means that in effect the midband from the dm4 would be running at about 75dB up to about 6KHz...
hmm... that could work... it's near the "masking" point for most of the midband, with the Alpair combo at 88dB... you'll hear it, but not all that much
so yeah, the 1.6kHz could work...
But, you know.... the resolution of these components is likely so high that you really should optimize as best as you can....
at least compare at 1.6KHz, 2.5KHz, 3.2kHz all the way up to 5 or 6kHz... it's just a matter of putting more caps in parallel to get a lower crossing point...
BUT ...
be warned!
Bigger values can get expensive if you use really good caps.... and the dm4 probably have enough resolution to where you can hear the quality of the caps... the dm2a certainly does
So if after comparing, you find not much difference by crossing higher... and i don't think you will.... well, then use a smaller super cap for best results
anything between 1.6kHz to 5Kz will not materially affect the 10kHz level, although it will affect the phase matching and the overall power response....
OK, I'll go out on a limb and make a prophecy...if you take the up the challenge and run a series of comparisons, my bet is on 4 or 5kHz as the best match.
other benefits? the higher crossing may also mean an easier load (what kind of amps are you using?) and the series cap gets smaller,
so this is non-trivial, allowing you to save much $$$ by using a smaller value on a really superlative quality cap... probably worth it.
I've heard some of those flat paper in oil caps from Denmark... they're BIG.. they're EXPENSIVE... 250USD for a 5uF cap!.... and you know what? they may actually be worth it, especially if you're running with some of those 20 thousand USD monoblock SET amps... the difference is NOT subtle....yikes, a speaker where the caps cost more than the drivers? .... are we nuts?... yeah, probably....
Either way, please let us know which of the crossing points seems to perform best, I would be interested in a system like this for traveling... either Alpairs or Jordans, along with a dm2a, hooked up with a VirtuAudio One, great sound from a tiny little amp.... could be a nice package!
All the Best
so let me see if i'm getting this right....
if you're running the Alpairs in series you'll be getting an effective 87-88dB efficiency relative to 2.83v input, while the dm4 is running at about 95dB at 10kHz, and you plan to attenuate the dm4 by about how much? 10dB or so?
which means that in effect the midband from the dm4 would be running at about 75dB up to about 6KHz...
hmm... that could work... it's near the "masking" point for most of the midband, with the Alpair combo at 88dB... you'll hear it, but not all that much
so yeah, the 1.6kHz could work...
But, you know.... the resolution of these components is likely so high that you really should optimize as best as you can....
at least compare at 1.6KHz, 2.5KHz, 3.2kHz all the way up to 5 or 6kHz... it's just a matter of putting more caps in parallel to get a lower crossing point...
BUT ...
be warned!
Bigger values can get expensive if you use really good caps.... and the dm4 probably have enough resolution to where you can hear the quality of the caps... the dm2a certainly does
So if after comparing, you find not much difference by crossing higher... and i don't think you will.... well, then use a smaller super cap for best results
anything between 1.6kHz to 5Kz will not materially affect the 10kHz level, although it will affect the phase matching and the overall power response....
OK, I'll go out on a limb and make a prophecy...if you take the up the challenge and run a series of comparisons, my bet is on 4 or 5kHz as the best match.
other benefits? the higher crossing may also mean an easier load (what kind of amps are you using?) and the series cap gets smaller,
so this is non-trivial, allowing you to save much $$$ by using a smaller value on a really superlative quality cap... probably worth it.
I've heard some of those flat paper in oil caps from Denmark... they're BIG.. they're EXPENSIVE... 250USD for a 5uF cap!.... and you know what? they may actually be worth it, especially if you're running with some of those 20 thousand USD monoblock SET amps... the difference is NOT subtle....yikes, a speaker where the caps cost more than the drivers? .... are we nuts?... yeah, probably....
Either way, please let us know which of the crossing points seems to perform best, I would be interested in a system like this for traveling... either Alpairs or Jordans, along with a dm2a, hooked up with a VirtuAudio One, great sound from a tiny little amp.... could be a nice package!
All the Best
Sure thing, Although I think which sounds best is in another league altogether. Well the CHR70 from markaudio is only US$70 a pop, might be worth it if you want to experiment with it...
Oon
Oon
Alpair 6
Hey Oon, after looking for the CHT70, also just found the Alpair 6 info on the Creative Sound Solutions website...
I thought you were working with the Markaudio 5" drivers, not the 2.5" !! This is closer to the SMALLER Jordans and those I have played with... they really need no help until about 12kHz and are about as transparent as you can get up to that point.
If the Alpair 6 is at all like the Jordans, I would revise my previous suggestions and recommend 1st order filter for the dm4 at no lower than 8kHz and more likely 10 to 12 kHz, maybe even 15kHz, especially if you are not rolling off the Alpairs.
There is NO WAY I would recommend crossing in at lower frequency unless you just have to have those sizzly highs, massive comb filtering and fuzzed out detail due to differences in signal arrival times.
These comments would apply to using the -10dB attenuated dm4 as well.
The hemispherical power response on the Alpair 6 will probably be flat to 6 or 7kHz and start gently rolling off at 8k, and be down some 6 dB at 15k... the 45 deg off axis response should be similar... this is where a small amount of hf add on could help achieve more uniform power response and achieve more air... without messing up the detail and adding a bunch of comb filter aberrations to the upper mids and highs. Any lower and you get sizzle, lots of it...
Ask any of the experienced fullrange proponents on this site and they would say: keep the midrange and lower highs clean. Do not try to cover the same band with too many different drivers. More than 1 type of driver qualifies as too many!
What are you using for subwoofers? A system like this certainly deserves a good one...
Oh, with the higher fxc on the dm4, well, now you can afford a Teflon cap!
Hey Oon, after looking for the CHT70, also just found the Alpair 6 info on the Creative Sound Solutions website...
I thought you were working with the Markaudio 5" drivers, not the 2.5" !! This is closer to the SMALLER Jordans and those I have played with... they really need no help until about 12kHz and are about as transparent as you can get up to that point.
If the Alpair 6 is at all like the Jordans, I would revise my previous suggestions and recommend 1st order filter for the dm4 at no lower than 8kHz and more likely 10 to 12 kHz, maybe even 15kHz, especially if you are not rolling off the Alpairs.
There is NO WAY I would recommend crossing in at lower frequency unless you just have to have those sizzly highs, massive comb filtering and fuzzed out detail due to differences in signal arrival times.
These comments would apply to using the -10dB attenuated dm4 as well.
The hemispherical power response on the Alpair 6 will probably be flat to 6 or 7kHz and start gently rolling off at 8k, and be down some 6 dB at 15k... the 45 deg off axis response should be similar... this is where a small amount of hf add on could help achieve more uniform power response and achieve more air... without messing up the detail and adding a bunch of comb filter aberrations to the upper mids and highs. Any lower and you get sizzle, lots of it...
Ask any of the experienced fullrange proponents on this site and they would say: keep the midrange and lower highs clean. Do not try to cover the same band with too many different drivers. More than 1 type of driver qualifies as too many!
What are you using for subwoofers? A system like this certainly deserves a good one...
Oh, with the higher fxc on the dm4, well, now you can afford a Teflon cap!
Hi Santiago,
I am quite the opposit of letting the one driver doing all the work. The idea was to create a big size source, very similar to a line array. Of course in a line array, they are generally the same speaker. In my case one of the three is a bit off. That is why I put it as a crossbreed between a line array and a mtm. The tweets will handle mids and extreme highs, and mids wil handle full range.
I am aware of phase effects. and how it will affect sound. But I realise later that most models are based on single frequency ( typically at crossover) and the comb filtering effect are calcullated. But since this one has a big overlap, the comb effects will be different from the adjoining frequency and hence inteference effects will not be so significant in normal audio music. ie , 1kHz node, 1.1KHz antinode, 1.2KHz node etc. Furthermore, I intend to make the DM4 softer than the alpair, so interference won't be so severe. The idea of the DM4 is to fill in where the alpair is missing, off axis response, low level details etc...
In terms of effects I quite like the big sound effect that you get from a 10 foot speaker line array. But that is one to many drivers for my pocket....
in terms of importance I place good detail and clarity as number one, good imgaing (wide and spacious) as number two, frequency response as number 3....
I will probably build a diffuser with DM4 first, place it on top of the alpair 6 (non mtm), experiment with it. Progressing on to a MTM with a tweeter built with a diffuser inside the cabinet to maintain homogenity with the other 2 later on.
Great that you have tried the Jordan JXR6HD. How is the sound compared to the DM2, mids and highs specifically?
Still thinking about the cap. Might be using the Solen. Not really ready to pay a hundred bucks for a cap. I wil probably try a few caps to see how the sound it finally produces, or I might put a switch box with muti caps.
Wil email you some pix when it is complete....
Oon
I am quite the opposit of letting the one driver doing all the work. The idea was to create a big size source, very similar to a line array. Of course in a line array, they are generally the same speaker. In my case one of the three is a bit off. That is why I put it as a crossbreed between a line array and a mtm. The tweets will handle mids and extreme highs, and mids wil handle full range.
I am aware of phase effects. and how it will affect sound. But I realise later that most models are based on single frequency ( typically at crossover) and the comb filtering effect are calcullated. But since this one has a big overlap, the comb effects will be different from the adjoining frequency and hence inteference effects will not be so significant in normal audio music. ie , 1kHz node, 1.1KHz antinode, 1.2KHz node etc. Furthermore, I intend to make the DM4 softer than the alpair, so interference won't be so severe. The idea of the DM4 is to fill in where the alpair is missing, off axis response, low level details etc...
In terms of effects I quite like the big sound effect that you get from a 10 foot speaker line array. But that is one to many drivers for my pocket....
in terms of importance I place good detail and clarity as number one, good imgaing (wide and spacious) as number two, frequency response as number 3....
I will probably build a diffuser with DM4 first, place it on top of the alpair 6 (non mtm), experiment with it. Progressing on to a MTM with a tweeter built with a diffuser inside the cabinet to maintain homogenity with the other 2 later on.
Great that you have tried the Jordan JXR6HD. How is the sound compared to the DM2, mids and highs specifically?
Still thinking about the cap. Might be using the Solen. Not really ready to pay a hundred bucks for a cap. I wil probably try a few caps to see how the sound it finally produces, or I might put a switch box with muti caps.
Wil email you some pix when it is complete....
Oon
In the mids from 300Hz to 1kHz, no comparison as the dm2a has its resonace right in the middle of that and sounds awful in that band. The Jordan just buries it, and this is THE most important area of the sound.
In the band 1kHz to 2kHz, again the Jordan is the winner. Probably becasue the dm2a is still too close to its resonant area.
in the 2kHz to 5 kHz range the Jordan and the dm2a each have virtues. I like them both, with maybe an edge to the dm2a. But because of its overall coherence between 300hZ and 5khZ, I would have to go with the Jordans if using near full range.
Yes, I know, the Jordan goes to 75Hz or so, but realistically, it needs a 300Hz crossing point if it is to handle any halfway loud signals. The same probably applies to the Alpair. Needs lots of these small cone drivers to get any impact, and at these prices, I´ll go for a good 7" like the Creative Sound Solutions to get bass and midbass. Dwarves are not giants. Simple as that.
Above 5kHz, the dm2a really does the better job when using in the omni array... better dispersion equals more air, and better imaging, simple as that. And it´s fast, dynamic, and it´s way more extended at the very top end.
If used without the omni array, the dm2a gets beamy also, and that continually rising top end adds too much tizzle... I would not use it this way... nor the dm4 for that matter.
So for mids, Jordans. For highs dm2a s in Omni array. Crossed in with a series network at 5kHz, that would be one heck of a high resolution system from 300Hz on up... maybe use a Scanspeak
7" revelator for the lows...wow. Except not very efficient. Oh well, can´t have it all.
Have you compared the Alpair 6 or CHT 70 to the Jordans? Are they sonically close? If they are, that would be something to consider. I really, really like the Jordans, but not their price.
I could easily see using the CHT70 with the dm2a+omni in an mtm with series type 1st order at 4 or 5kHz
In the band 1kHz to 2kHz, again the Jordan is the winner. Probably becasue the dm2a is still too close to its resonant area.
in the 2kHz to 5 kHz range the Jordan and the dm2a each have virtues. I like them both, with maybe an edge to the dm2a. But because of its overall coherence between 300hZ and 5khZ, I would have to go with the Jordans if using near full range.
Yes, I know, the Jordan goes to 75Hz or so, but realistically, it needs a 300Hz crossing point if it is to handle any halfway loud signals. The same probably applies to the Alpair. Needs lots of these small cone drivers to get any impact, and at these prices, I´ll go for a good 7" like the Creative Sound Solutions to get bass and midbass. Dwarves are not giants. Simple as that.
Above 5kHz, the dm2a really does the better job when using in the omni array... better dispersion equals more air, and better imaging, simple as that. And it´s fast, dynamic, and it´s way more extended at the very top end.
If used without the omni array, the dm2a gets beamy also, and that continually rising top end adds too much tizzle... I would not use it this way... nor the dm4 for that matter.
So for mids, Jordans. For highs dm2a s in Omni array. Crossed in with a series network at 5kHz, that would be one heck of a high resolution system from 300Hz on up... maybe use a Scanspeak
7" revelator for the lows...wow. Except not very efficient. Oh well, can´t have it all.
Have you compared the Alpair 6 or CHT 70 to the Jordans? Are they sonically close? If they are, that would be something to consider. I really, really like the Jordans, but not their price.
I could easily see using the CHT70 with the dm2a+omni in an mtm with series type 1st order at 4 or 5kHz
Hi Santiago,
Thanks for all the coment. I can say pretty much the same for Alpair 6 ( no need to act suprised). That is why I am trying to pair them together, its only a matter of how best to pair them together. As for the Jordan vs markaudio. I was trying to buy the Jordan JXR6HD when production stopped. So I can't comment on it. but you can try this thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=138750
I've been meaning to ask Jim Griffin these questions as well.
As for the subwoofer I am using a AAD E6 I think. I should get or build a better sub... one of these days. Since the alpair 6 has a xmax of +-5mm versus the Jordan 2.5mm, I reckon it makes a better partner in terms of crossing over to subwoofer.
Oon
Thanks for all the coment. I can say pretty much the same for Alpair 6 ( no need to act suprised). That is why I am trying to pair them together, its only a matter of how best to pair them together. As for the Jordan vs markaudio. I was trying to buy the Jordan JXR6HD when production stopped. So I can't comment on it. but you can try this thread.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=138750
I've been meaning to ask Jim Griffin these questions as well.
As for the subwoofer I am using a AAD E6 I think. I should get or build a better sub... one of these days. Since the alpair 6 has a xmax of +-5mm versus the Jordan 2.5mm, I reckon it makes a better partner in terms of crossing over to subwoofer.
Oon
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