No new preorders sorry Only for the people that ordered a Katana and waited patiently .
We only recommend 2 PSUs. One for RPI and second for Katana stack. All tests were done using only 2 PSUs , including thd+n and sound quality .
We give the option on using more...but we don't recommend unless you really know what you are doing. We wont suport this option beyond whats in the manual.
Rasmussen's idea wasn't necessarily new. Please see Fig. 5-1, Page 21 here: http://audioworkshop.org/downloads/C111 Current steering transimpedance amplifier.pdf
C2 in Fig.5-1 looks to be the same capacitor as Rasumssen describes. It is to help keep RF out of the IV stage amplifiers if it could cause problems there.
Using fast enough opamps for IV might help too, IMHO. Depending on DAC clock frequency, LME49720 might be fast enough.
C2 in Fig.5-1 looks to be the same capacitor as Rasumssen describes. It is to help keep RF out of the IV stage amplifiers if it could cause problems there.
Using fast enough opamps for IV might help too, IMHO. Depending on DAC clock frequency, LME49720 might be fast enough.
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A.
vs.
B.
Pretty creative. Your marketing folks are doing a real great job.
You realize you're confusing people out there with messages like that, don't you!?!?
With a message like that who do you think would buy solution A?
Why not A. "digital sound" vs. B. "analog sound" ? (Almost as bad )
Or
Why not A. "neutral" vs. B. "filtered, thus a little (-13dB-THD-N) flawed, and smoothed" !?!?
As you see the wording can have a great impact of what people will be going for.
Probably you'd work a bit on the marketing messages around the two options. Just an advise.
And.
In case you can just desolder the filter from the filtered board to convert it into the standard board, you should say that too. For the DIY minded people this might become
an option and will have to purchase just one board.
vs.
B.
Pretty creative. Your marketing folks are doing a real great job.
You realize you're confusing people out there with messages like that, don't you!?!?
With a message like that who do you think would buy solution A?
Why not A. "digital sound" vs. B. "analog sound" ? (Almost as bad
)Or
Why not A. "neutral" vs. B. "filtered, thus a little (-13dB-THD-N) flawed, and smoothed" !?!?
As you see the wording can have a great impact of what people will be going for.
Probably you'd work a bit on the marketing messages around the two options. Just an advise.
And.
In case you can just desolder the filter from the filtered board to convert it into the standard board, you should say that too. For the DIY minded people this might become
an option and will have to purchase just one board.
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IMO, a little bit strange.
Since months Allo tries to reduce THD and then short before second release they come up with a better sounding solution but higher distorsions.
Maybe there are some other modifications which sound even better.
I hope the customer will accept this options and not look forward to options outside the Allo range of products.
Matt
I like Allos open mindset and DIY friendly design, but in this case I also feel this options should have been figured out by the testers before publishing and only the better sounding should have been released - or you make them both available on one board with jumpers so everybody can compare at home. But how should one decide now which version to buy?
When designing a product one has to freeze the options at a stage, same as with the 4 PSU options - at the end the user is confused and overloaded with options to choose from and will decide for a different product accepting some known compromises but with a clear idea what he will get and not with a bad feeling and doubts the other DAC version might have been better...
this is just my feeling about Katana at the moment....
When designing a product one has to freeze the options at a stage, same as with the 4 PSU options - at the end the user is confused and overloaded with options to choose from and will decide for a different product accepting some known compromises but with a clear idea what he will get and not with a bad feeling and doubts the other DAC version might have been better...
this is just my feeling about Katana at the moment....
Come on guys, give Allo a break. Compromises such as this one happen all the time in audio, it's just that most manufacturers don't give the customer a choice. They just pick one or the other design and sell it.
Allo says: "we offer a design that sounds (to us and to several others) better than the "technically superior solution". You get to choose which one to buy.". They will even provide FFT plots.
Would it have been better if they'd said "the final design measures in THD some 10db worse than the original design but that's the one you'll be getting". How would that go down with the customers? Would all of them appreciate the fine-tuning that went on, even though it appeared to have deteriorated the measured performance?
Allo says: "we offer a design that sounds (to us and to several others) better than the "technically superior solution". You get to choose which one to buy.". They will even provide FFT plots.
Would it have been better if they'd said "the final design measures in THD some 10db worse than the original design but that's the one you'll be getting". How would that go down with the customers? Would all of them appreciate the fine-tuning that went on, even though it appeared to have deteriorated the measured performance?
Come on DimDim. It's Allo who's stirring the pot.
We're not talking about a compromise.
We're talking about two options/products of choice.
People will now wait to see what's gonna be the better solution. (That usually generates this or that unhappy customer!)
I'd agree with earlier remark, that if that Rasmussen tweak is pretty basic, an on/off switch via HW/SW could have prevented all the discussions.
Even soldering a cap in and out could have been an option.
The IMO best thing would have been to leave it alone altogether until REV2 next year.
The first Rev was already quite close to a DAC-3. The REV1.2 would have been much closer I guess. What more do you want from a 250$+200$(PS) DAC!?!?
Enjoy.
We're not talking about a compromise.
We're talking about two options/products of choice.
People will now wait to see what's gonna be the better solution. (That usually generates this or that unhappy customer!)
I'd agree with earlier remark, that if that Rasmussen tweak is pretty basic, an on/off switch via HW/SW could have prevented all the discussions.
Even soldering a cap in and out could have been an option.
The IMO best thing would have been to leave it alone altogether until REV2 next year.
The first Rev was already quite close to a DAC-3. The REV1.2 would have been much closer I guess. What more do you want from a 250$+200$(PS) DAC!?!?
Enjoy.
I think allo made a very clever decision.
I don't know any brand that offer 2 output stages for choice...
This is inovating on the market...
Who knows in the future if could be more since it is on a separate board.
Allo have been inovating in many products...
and is active on the audio diy comunity ..
For me this is a very different aproach compared to other brands..this is thinking out of the box...
Congratulations on all the efforts you have been made to bring this dac to public.
I don't know any brand that offer 2 output stages for choice...
This is inovating on the market...
Who knows in the future if could be more since it is on a separate board.
Allo have been inovating in many products...
and is active on the audio diy comunity ..
For me this is a very different aproach compared to other brands..this is thinking out of the box...
Congratulations on all the efforts you have been made to bring this dac to public.
Funny. For MUCH longer than I've had Audio as a hobby (1977?), THE main conflict in the business has been between the 'Specs' versus 'Sound' brigades. I think Allo will be doing us a service by releasing both the 'highest-specs' version and the 'best sound' version and WE can chose which based on our bias. Having made that comparison just last night, both are good, though I think it will be a clear choice for most.
As for offering both in one board with some way to switch it, please take a look at the threads here on DIYAudio on the 'Rasmussen' mod. One would quickly see that it is placed in-line between the DAC and the I/V stage... one of the most sensitive areas from a signal integrity, noise, and proper layout perspective. Doing anything to provide switching would significantly compromise one option or both.
I think Allo should be commended for offering this as an option.
I also think Allo should be commended for taking the time to further refine the SQ of the unit. Having heard different versions along the way, I think anyone making a comparison between the original fully functional release (after the corrected firmware was installed) and the current version would hear a clear and welcome upgrade, no matter which version they auditioned.
For those who doubt it was worth it or for those who wonder "Why all the fuss, doesn't think the DAC chip chosen determine a unit's SQ?" (quick tip... it doesn't!), I suggest you read the following set of articles on Computer Audiophile documenting a quest for a new DAC…
Intro: My Quest for a New DAC - Introduction to the Series - Contributors - Computer Audiophile
Mytek Brooklyn DAC: My Quest for a New DAC Part 1 - The Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ with Uptone JS-2 Power Supply - Contributors - Computer Audiophile
Ayre QX-8 DAC: My Quest for a new DAC, Part 2 - Ayre QX-8 - Reviews - Computer Audiophile
Denafrips Terminator DAC: My Quest for a New DAC, Part 3 - Denafrips Terminator - Reviews - Computer Audiophile
This is key for understanding why it was worthwhile for Allo to further refine the Kantana, The Ayre QX-8, a $5,500 USD highly-reviewed DAC, uses the same DAC chip as the Katana, the ES9038Q2M. That it holds up so well compared to the other units reviewed (beating the Mytek and Schit Yggdrasil, roughly equaling the Denafrips, and not far behind the nearly $10,000 USD Ayre QX-5) says a lot about how much EVERYTHING beyond the DAC chip contributes to the SQ of a DAC. AND about how good a DAC using the ES9038Q2M can be. Will the Katana be at the same SQ level as the QX-8. I haven't heard a QX-8, though I doubt it. Read the section in the 3rd link above about the designers' thoughts on what are important contributing factors to a DAC's SQ. The Katana, run with 2 supplies as most will, just won't have all of the 'right' stuff (which costs much more to include) to take it to that level. Still, it gives you an idea of what Allo had to consider to make the Katana the very good DAC it currently is today.
Also, if you read the Stereophile review of the QX-5 here: Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty D/A processor | Stereophile.com , you'll see it is no great shakes in the specs department either, for all of it's vaulted SQ. Interesting, huh?
Greg in Mississippi
As for offering both in one board with some way to switch it, please take a look at the threads here on DIYAudio on the 'Rasmussen' mod. One would quickly see that it is placed in-line between the DAC and the I/V stage... one of the most sensitive areas from a signal integrity, noise, and proper layout perspective. Doing anything to provide switching would significantly compromise one option or both.
I think Allo should be commended for offering this as an option.
I also think Allo should be commended for taking the time to further refine the SQ of the unit. Having heard different versions along the way, I think anyone making a comparison between the original fully functional release (after the corrected firmware was installed) and the current version would hear a clear and welcome upgrade, no matter which version they auditioned.
For those who doubt it was worth it or for those who wonder "Why all the fuss, doesn't think the DAC chip chosen determine a unit's SQ?" (quick tip... it doesn't!), I suggest you read the following set of articles on Computer Audiophile documenting a quest for a new DAC…
Intro: My Quest for a New DAC - Introduction to the Series - Contributors - Computer Audiophile
Mytek Brooklyn DAC: My Quest for a New DAC Part 1 - The Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ with Uptone JS-2 Power Supply - Contributors - Computer Audiophile
Ayre QX-8 DAC: My Quest for a new DAC, Part 2 - Ayre QX-8 - Reviews - Computer Audiophile
Denafrips Terminator DAC: My Quest for a New DAC, Part 3 - Denafrips Terminator - Reviews - Computer Audiophile
This is key for understanding why it was worthwhile for Allo to further refine the Kantana, The Ayre QX-8, a $5,500 USD highly-reviewed DAC, uses the same DAC chip as the Katana, the ES9038Q2M. That it holds up so well compared to the other units reviewed (beating the Mytek and Schit Yggdrasil, roughly equaling the Denafrips, and not far behind the nearly $10,000 USD Ayre QX-5) says a lot about how much EVERYTHING beyond the DAC chip contributes to the SQ of a DAC. AND about how good a DAC using the ES9038Q2M can be. Will the Katana be at the same SQ level as the QX-8. I haven't heard a QX-8, though I doubt it. Read the section in the 3rd link above about the designers' thoughts on what are important contributing factors to a DAC's SQ. The Katana, run with 2 supplies as most will, just won't have all of the 'right' stuff (which costs much more to include) to take it to that level. Still, it gives you an idea of what Allo had to consider to make the Katana the very good DAC it currently is today.
Also, if you read the Stereophile review of the QX-5 here: Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty D/A processor | Stereophile.com , you'll see it is no great shakes in the specs department either, for all of it's vaulted SQ. Interesting, huh?
Greg in Mississippi
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You mean the Katana V1 can be update update or corrected firmware? Now on website, Allo remove document of Katana update firmware (for v2).
I have a Katana V1 and I consider about it. Thanks !
A.
vs.
B.
Pretty creative. Your marketing folks are doing a real great job.
You realize you're confusing people out there with messages like that, don't you!?!?
With a message like that who do you think would buy solution A?
Why not A. "digital sound" vs. B. "analog sound" ? (Almost as bad
Or
Why not A. "neutral" vs. B. "filtered, thus a little (-13dB-THD-N) flawed, and smoothed" !?!?
As you see the wording can have a great impact of what people will be going for.
Probably you'd work a bit on the marketing messages around the two options. Just an advise.
And.
In case you can just desolder the filter from the filtered board to convert it into the standard board, you should say that too. For the DIY minded people this might become
an option and will have to purchase just one board.
We will post on how to desolder the filter. I understand that some customers will be confused and some will wait until they know what version to buy, but the decision was not driven by marketing. There are 2 camps , THD+N and subjective sound quality. Our Katana was announced at -112.75THD+N and we want to customers to have both options. In fact , the decision was driven by customers even though it means that it will make things more complicated for us .
* I didn't say your decision was driven by marketing. I said it IMO is tactically unwise marketing.
* Being driven by customers has its limits.
10 customers ten opinions.
This Rasmussen tweak seems to be a dirty hack to me. It's not just 1 or 2 db you'll
loose - it's 12dB! That doesn't mean that it doesn't have "subjectve" advantages
(such as smooth sound
) though. Audio design is always about finding the bettercomprise. There's no perfect solution. I'm wondering if Rasmussen ever measured
the downside of that tweak himself! There might even be an option to approach this
subject from the SW side.
* People do get the impression they get a different output stage. What they get
is one with a little tweak and one without it. It's not like class-A vs. transformer output stage.
* However. Great to see that the tweak can simply be removed.
Many people (with a soldering iron at hand) will like that option and probably go for the tweaked version.
I am confident that the product will end up to be a great performer - either way!
Rome wasn't build in a day. I'm still looking forward to Katana.
Hi Soundcheck
the decision was not taken lightly . Yes the loss is 12db, this is why we think that best is to give the option.
The filter cannot be done in SW. From what I understand the delta sigma has noise on the analog output (and that cannot be removed by software) . Now , its hard to explain the changes heard with Rasmussen mod on the sound. I will let that job to reviewers.
the decision was not taken lightly . Yes the loss is 12db, this is why we think that best is to give the option.
The filter cannot be done in SW. From what I understand the delta sigma has noise on the analog output (and that cannot be removed by software) . Now , its hard to explain the changes heard with Rasmussen mod on the sound. I will let that job to reviewers.
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