New Celestion 12" twin cone

[norman bates]

current drive adds bass (as it flops a bit), but what does it do for the high end ?

I think the an12 nirvana had more spikes (and a whole lot more expensive also, but it has a copper cap).

Based on trimming whizzer on my b20, I'd trim a little off to lower the peak on the fane.

I plan to trim a little off one of the celestions I'll get. Then again, I like it to have a bit of boost up there anyway, so I may leave it.

Norman

 

[freddi]

I hear some good in the Fane - its mids are very clear on my little Karlson, but before loading the driver, I damped the slit vent with a thin layer of dacron and its subjectively overdamped with weak bass plus being raised off the floor boundary. (It would be better to have a single ~ 10 square inch vent in a K12 for this or Eminence's 12lta.)

There's plenty of treble - on axis - since the Karlson's baffle is tilted upwards, the listener's ears should be pretty much on the high frequency lobe and mine are a bit below. I'd say the sheen of brushed cymbals drops after 10 degrees off axis. So far I've only played a jazz organ CD and now a Telarc CD of Jack Lemmon - -his vocal, piano, band's trumpet, saxes etc. are nice and clear - there probably would be no need of a helper tweeter and in appropriate enclosure (Karlson K15, TQWT, MLTL) it should sound nice.

sorry the dual whizzer cone isn't showing on my Karlson pictures - its there and apparently working well

the cone looks something like vintage dual cone such as this Semprini 12 inch - but the Fane
goes about an octave higher

I'm auditioning it on one channel of an inexpensive Onkyo 5.1 receiver - and its pretty damn good - it should be nice with tubes

 

[ErnieM]

Two good reviews so far...think I found my next mid tweet for bass guitar.

 

[norman bates]

wow, good to know.

Wonder if a phase plug would help.

The cele would be like the 12lta, not much past 8khz, which may not hurt as a center channel under the tv. The cele's kevlar/paper may be good sounding too.

The fane, qts is .64, maybe OB, big box otherwise.

Norman

 

[freddi]

-depending upon the amp, one might get by with ~2.5 cu.ft. sealed/aperiodic vent - maybe a t-line - maybe the Karlsonator12 - btw - that Jack Lemmon album was on Laserlight, not Telarc. The cele should be good too.

 

[xrk971]

Freddi,
That Fane looks pretty nice. How does a Betsy K compare with it? The freq response curve looks impressive for a 12in but I wonder if all that treble is generated with impulse response ringing breakup modes?

 

[freddi]

- hi X - I don't have a direct comparison - fwiw here's a graph of a BetsyK in a high aspect K-coupler. Bang for low buck, I like BG20 and probably in a MLTL
- BetsyK has an approximate 10K peak on-axis. I didn't use much smoothing on this graph as was looking for effects of different slot height

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

for a fullrange, L.Cao F6 has a nice top end - dispersion of course isn't as wide as say a 1 inch dome tweeter so timbre of a rainstorm can shift of one is up close and moves their head

 

[gandalfandula]

Would separate tweeter be absolutely becessary? 10khz isnt super high but I'm guessing for nost purposes it wouldn't be a huge deal...

 

[freddi]

at age 64, my hearing rolls off sharply above 13KHz - but it still seems useful to have good power response (which we don't generally get with fullrange) and extension. 12LTA needs a helper tweeter (i prefer piezo or phenolic slot to Ti bullet type) Celestion likewise probably needs a helper tweeter. The Fane will get by without a helper if one is reasonably close to on axis. I'm only about five feet from the Fane so can note shifts of it and other fullrange by moving less than a foot off axis. When one moves back, a small angular coverage can work better perspective wise. The electrically weak motor of the Fane will require boxes larger to get some bass without peaking. It seems to be a nicely made driver. I wonder if its possible to make enough tradeoffs in a 12 inch fullrange to successfully employ an 80 ounce ferrite magnet slug and two inch coil? Guess its either not so feasible or there is not enough market.

 

[norman bates]

betsyK graphs better than I'd thought (where is the 3khz +10db spike ?).

I bet the celestion has a different sound due to the kevlar/paper cone.
8khz cutoff may work fine for a center channel.

Norman

 

[CLS]

... I wonder if its possible to make enough tradeoffs in a 12 inch fullrange to successfully employ an 80 ounce ferrite magnet slug and two inch coil? Guess its either not so feasible or there is not enough market.

I'd love to see a motor with such magnet size and an even smaller VC.

 

[freddi]

the Celestion could be better - or just different. If had any space and extra wood then could give an open baffle run for the Fane. For a full range *, I think this Fane has some positive traits *(for larger speakers, I tend to like coax)

 

[norman bates]

Freddi, why don't you start a new thread about the Fane ???????????

I'd also like to see a stronger magnet on the fane with a qts closer to .4, even if the response climbs. One can always listen off axis.............

The celestion (if specs close) makes qtc .707 in 2ft3 and F3=Fsb=89hz.

Unless solo listening, not sure if dispersion would be adequate.

Norman

 

[freddi]

my apologies to mess up this thread with the Fane - I don't have enough to give it a thread of its own. It needs to run OB and perhaps a dedicated enclosure with testing - "I'd love to see a motor with such magnet size and an even smaller VC" - we could always throw money at Eminence and see what would happen based on 12LTA -- hey Norman, If the Celestion is close to spec, then a 2 cubic foot cabinet would be ok with a subwoofer.

I wish Eminence could do a run of only 4 custom units.

here's a 56 ounce magnet 12" by Eminence designed by a former Gauss president for sealed box - its kinda weak in Karlson 12
- and not as sensitive as 12pe32

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

80 ounces with a low moving mass cone and spider helps - its weird that so many are hung up on fullrange
when a coax has strengths

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[norman bates]

lol, ya ain't messing anything up !!!!

Djk said a similar thing, we can mix and match all sorts of stuff to vary a 12lta.
Except Hammers frames were sent overseas to be modified (capped pole ?, can't remember).

Hmm, coax. A full range is close or slowly changing phase. Not many coaxes can be time aligned, and ideally 6db. A tricky way is a ladder network in the crossover (for delay) as used in the jbl urei. I think PAS coax also had a similar thing going on.

I think the limited dispersion of a 12" with whizzer could make for a hilarious line array !!!! Super limited width, but bass !!!!!!!!!
You can get you bass guitar and I can bump to Black Eye Peas "Hey Mama" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Norman

 

[Bigun]

Is Coax really worth the expense and complication when a 2-way with separate tweeter placed close to the woofer works well enough ?

 

[freddi]

I like coax for symmetry-they can be voiced by choice of crossover and HF driver - for instance, running coax with just a cap highpass (per 'David Dick) is kinda rough but sounds like some fullrange speakers - other than the Eminence Beta series, they are often expensive these days - the best I've used were around $100 each and built by Eminence with edge wound coil, cast frame, 80oz slug - add $39 current price for a compression driver, another $30 for crossover parts. Since they are difficult to source, a two way works for me. This is a copy of a Karlson X15 which made its debut in 1965. I have Peavey, Beyma, P-Audio, several sets of Eminence coax up to 109oz magnet.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

109oz magnet Eminence - 4" coil, mms not much more than the Fane - sounded good on Fritz Wunderlich cd with ASD1001 compression driver and 2K5 xover,

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[norman bates]

cele's sold out on parts express, not due in till 2-jun-2015.

Oh well. Maybe someone here got a few and could post some thoughts on them.

fane is still at mcm for around $84.
Fane International 12" Full Range Woofer 250W RMS | SOVEREIGN 12-250TC (SOVEREIGN 12250TC) | Fane International

Norman

 

[freddi]

a good solution for the Fane triple cone may already exist - GregB's "Kalrsonator 12" - if I can move enough stuff around then will load one of mine with the Fane and adjust stuffing in the pointy stub, etc.

Karlsonator 12 with a Visaton BG20

 

[ToddD]

Anyone still playing around with these?

I have a beta 12lta in a sealed box. I can see why people like them and I can see why people don't love them. I am using them with helper tweeter on top and an active sub for LF. This is just for a secondary system in the garage. A fun system for classic rock and blues to listen to while I am working in the garage or just shooting pool (in the garage). So I am not focused on a sweet spot or a sound stage. Just dynamic and musical. And the mids and tweeter to be driven by a low watt tube amp.

So anyone have an opinion on which might give the best midrange? The beta 12lta, the Celestion, or the Fane?

Thanks