Yo guys , sorry for my english . I made a 2 way speakers time ago , not so good tbh . I wana make a 3 way loudspeakers now ,but kinda cheap .Is hard to get some good speakers in Bulgaria , also i dont want to order them from far away , cose they may not come in one piece .I like those for stupid reason they look good ( dont want my wife to throw the speakers out of the window ).Found this speakers :
MONACOR: SPH-8M
MONACOR: SPP-125
MONACOR: DT-140 this one is 4 ohm
Exproject
- Говорители - Високотонови - Monacor - DT-109 prefer this one 8 ohm
the middle is 92db , is this gona be a problem for making the Crossover , cose i dont have much skills in electronics ( im biologist ) .
Is there a software wich is free and can calculate a box volume for 3 ways , and to tell me shoud i separate the middle from the woofer and this kind of stuff ( i can solder the componets 🙂 ) . tanks
my Amp is 8-16 ohm but have some problems , gona buy new one soon
MONACOR: SPH-8M
MONACOR: SPP-125
MONACOR: DT-140 this one is 4 ohm
Exproject
- Говорители - Високотонови - Monacor - DT-109 prefer this one 8 ohm
the middle is 92db , is this gona be a problem for making the Crossover , cose i dont have much skills in electronics ( im biologist ) .
Is there a software wich is free and can calculate a box volume for 3 ways , and to tell me shoud i separate the middle from the woofer and this kind of stuff ( i can solder the componets 🙂 ) . tanks
my Amp is 8-16 ohm but have some problems , gona buy new one soon
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Firstly, are you not interested in seeing if there is some simple adjustment you can make to your two way design?
The drivers you have provided links for look like they can work together, I assume Monacor are easy to obtain in Bulgaria?
The bass could be a good choice as it allows you to either go for a sealed cabinet or ported. The website words not mine, the specs suggest that is true. It seems quite expensive, what do you think?
The midrange is interesting as it is already comes in its own sealed enclosure, It would be interesting to find somebody who has already used it and get their comments. Tweeters should not be an issue integrating to a mid range.
To answer your questions, yes, you will have to use some resistance to pad down the midrange level.
Unibox, WinISD or the Monacor CAAD-4.2 software should allow you design a sensible size box for the woofer. The Monacor software may also be free if you dig into their website
Xsim or VituixCAD will help you with crossover design, you will have to get the frequency and impedance data for the drivers .frd and .zma files. You can use a software tool to trace manufacturer's data and produce basic, but workable .frd and .zma files. There is a tracing tool built into VituixCAD.
Is there not an existing Visaton or Monacor kit that you like to use to go down the three way route.
Also have a look on the web for SEAS, SBAcoustics or Scanspeak three way designs. if there is one you like it might be worthwhile using that designs drivers and dimensions and the speaker design software to give you a better chance of success.
Going to a three way and using drivers that are untested by others is a big challenge unless they are already used in an existing design. Not impossible but a challenge.
The drivers you have provided links for look like they can work together, I assume Monacor are easy to obtain in Bulgaria?
The bass could be a good choice as it allows you to either go for a sealed cabinet or ported. The website words not mine, the specs suggest that is true. It seems quite expensive, what do you think?
The midrange is interesting as it is already comes in its own sealed enclosure, It would be interesting to find somebody who has already used it and get their comments. Tweeters should not be an issue integrating to a mid range.
To answer your questions, yes, you will have to use some resistance to pad down the midrange level.
Unibox, WinISD or the Monacor CAAD-4.2 software should allow you design a sensible size box for the woofer. The Monacor software may also be free if you dig into their website
Xsim or VituixCAD will help you with crossover design, you will have to get the frequency and impedance data for the drivers .frd and .zma files. You can use a software tool to trace manufacturer's data and produce basic, but workable .frd and .zma files. There is a tracing tool built into VituixCAD.
Is there not an existing Visaton or Monacor kit that you like to use to go down the three way route.
Also have a look on the web for SEAS, SBAcoustics or Scanspeak three way designs. if there is one you like it might be worthwhile using that designs drivers and dimensions and the speaker design software to give you a better chance of success.
Going to a three way and using drivers that are untested by others is a big challenge unless they are already used in an existing design. Not impossible but a challenge.
thanks Ray , i found in few places seas and sbacoustics but their prices are way to high. Monacor are kinda in the middle guess as quality too . Other option is cheep bulgarian or china speakers wich dont even have data to them and cost like 70 eu everything 🙂
Cant rly find monacor CAAD for free , got only viruses from russian websites 🙂 . WinISD and Boxsim dont want to accept the data i put for those speakers
woofer - MONACOR SPH-8M - 8" Woofer 75eu
midd - MONACOR SP-150 - 6" Mid-range 30eu
tweeter- MONACOR DT-109 - 1" Dome Tweeter 23eu
this combination with new midd looks better to me and little bit more expensive . My goal is old hi-fi speakers like in the 90's . Im still searching for a kit ,but cant find anything close to what i want. I found Visaton kits but for floorstanding speakers on good price , but they dont have them at the moment and didnt know when they gona get it , maybe never the guy said. I have a friend wich can make the woodwork for me , he have the machines for it ,and i got microphone for measurement. I just need to get the speaker and make the crossover , wich is geting to be a problem atm 🙂.Im still trying to get my cabinet volume and vent sizes , guess as crossover i will go somewhere like ~500Hz / 2500Hz , but i dont know anything about phases and polarity things.When i think about Hi-fi those pop up in my head "Onkyo sc-950" .If i dont want the "perfect sound" is using crossover like this without measurements gona be a big problme ? Thanks for the help
Cant rly find monacor CAAD for free , got only viruses from russian websites 🙂 . WinISD and Boxsim dont want to accept the data i put for those speakers
woofer - MONACOR SPH-8M - 8" Woofer 75eu
midd - MONACOR SP-150 - 6" Mid-range 30eu
tweeter- MONACOR DT-109 - 1" Dome Tweeter 23eu
this combination with new midd looks better to me and little bit more expensive . My goal is old hi-fi speakers like in the 90's . Im still searching for a kit ,but cant find anything close to what i want. I found Visaton kits but for floorstanding speakers on good price , but they dont have them at the moment and didnt know when they gona get it , maybe never the guy said. I have a friend wich can make the woodwork for me , he have the machines for it ,and i got microphone for measurement. I just need to get the speaker and make the crossover , wich is geting to be a problem atm 🙂.Im still trying to get my cabinet volume and vent sizes , guess as crossover i will go somewhere like ~500Hz / 2500Hz , but i dont know anything about phases and polarity things.When i think about Hi-fi those pop up in my head "Onkyo sc-950" .If i dont want the "perfect sound" is using crossover like this without measurements gona be a big problme ? Thanks for the help
Thanks for providing more information.
The woofer and mid should work quite happily in WinISD I will try to have a look tomorrow, manually input the data. The tweeter at 3Khz or so shouldn't be an issue.
AllenB crossover points are sensible, and maybe the midrange in its own sealed enclosure (part of the overall cabinet) will roll in at 500Hz nicely, with very few components or none, which simplifies things and keeps costs down. Again crossing over to a tweeter 2.5 -3.0 Khz initially suggest simpler second order crossover.
Having a microphone and sound card should give you the eyes to see when you are going off track with component choices.
Do you want floorstanders or large bookshelf cabinet for use with stands?
Will they be near to a back wall, in a corner position or possibly some way out into the room. Is it a big space, its not a castle is it?
The woofer and mid should work quite happily in WinISD I will try to have a look tomorrow, manually input the data. The tweeter at 3Khz or so shouldn't be an issue.
AllenB crossover points are sensible, and maybe the midrange in its own sealed enclosure (part of the overall cabinet) will roll in at 500Hz nicely, with very few components or none, which simplifies things and keeps costs down. Again crossing over to a tweeter 2.5 -3.0 Khz initially suggest simpler second order crossover.
Having a microphone and sound card should give you the eyes to see when you are going off track with component choices.
Do you want floorstanders or large bookshelf cabinet for use with stands?
Will they be near to a back wall, in a corner position or possibly some way out into the room. Is it a big space, its not a castle is it?
i guess they will be close to the walls its around 30 m2,close to the wall . So i have to calculate the volume of the woofer then add a volume for middbass and thats gona be my final volume of the speaker ?
Technically, if you want to consider these things you should allow for the volume of if the midrange enclosure, the woofer volume, the port volume if it needs a port, the tweeter volume and bracing etc. Some programmes work out the differing driver volume from the data you have entered for basket , magnet cone diameter etc.
However, most people do not add these components to their deign and still have a working loudspeaker pretty much in alignment with the design targets.
However, most people do not add these components to their deign and still have a working loudspeaker pretty much in alignment with the design targets.
I remember working with the spp-125 some years ago (or something very similar). The idea was to use a second order highpass filter with a slight peak around 1200Hz. This pulled the response nicely flat between 550-2kHz. I don't remember what was done about the baffle after that.
I had a look at the data and made these files.
The bass driver gives you good technical results in various enclosures, varying between 22, 33, and 45 litres depending on alignment chosen.
You could try a sealed enclosure if you are going to use them close to a wall or maybe one of the SCC4 or SBB4 alignments for reflex. Look at the power handling, impedance and group delay to see how they change. Also try adjusting a power input of between 30 - 45 watts to see where they start becoming excursion limited at their lower working frequency
The SP-150 doesn't seem to want be put in a small enclosure, as you would with a pure midrange, its more of a midwoofer. I havent come up with a suitable solution on how to use it properly. I am reluctant to say run it in the main enclosure, and it will be fine with a suitable filter to limit it with a 500Hz 2nd order highpass filter. It will definitely be moved around by the low bass from the woofer when you are listening at higher volumes, which will introduce more distortion etc.
Assuming you havent purchased any drivers yet I would tend to spend some more time looking for a midrange.
can you not get SBAcoustics drivers easily in Bulgaria then you could think about a proven design from TroelsGravesen site ie
SBAcoustics-3WC
If your friend can do the cabinet there are a lot of clues there on thta page how to build. Its a fair size and should give you something close to what you are looking for. You may still have to stuff the port if they are close to a wall.
Hopefully some food for thought.
The bass driver gives you good technical results in various enclosures, varying between 22, 33, and 45 litres depending on alignment chosen.
You could try a sealed enclosure if you are going to use them close to a wall or maybe one of the SCC4 or SBB4 alignments for reflex. Look at the power handling, impedance and group delay to see how they change. Also try adjusting a power input of between 30 - 45 watts to see where they start becoming excursion limited at their lower working frequency
The SP-150 doesn't seem to want be put in a small enclosure, as you would with a pure midrange, its more of a midwoofer. I havent come up with a suitable solution on how to use it properly. I am reluctant to say run it in the main enclosure, and it will be fine with a suitable filter to limit it with a 500Hz 2nd order highpass filter. It will definitely be moved around by the low bass from the woofer when you are listening at higher volumes, which will introduce more distortion etc.
Assuming you havent purchased any drivers yet I would tend to spend some more time looking for a midrange.
can you not get SBAcoustics drivers easily in Bulgaria then you could think about a proven design from TroelsGravesen site ie
SBAcoustics-3WC
If your friend can do the cabinet there are a lot of clues there on thta page how to build. Its a fair size and should give you something close to what you are looking for. You may still have to stuff the port if they are close to a wall.
Hopefully some food for thought.
You have first to define what you think is cheap 🙂
I don't get your idea that ordering from far away is risky. A reputable shop will send an appropriately sized package, and the shipment should be fully insured. You will have the same kind of problems buying locally with a shipment.
Choosing drivers only on the look is only a path to aesthetics, not good sound. And if you don't have the skills to design a crossover, nor the willingness to understand and learn, I strongly suggest you choose a kit, something with an already designed crossover you can simply build buying drivers and components. If you like the look this will be a good candidate, good drivers not too expensive and a good designed crossover (*): SEAS-3-Way-Classic
In general I find Monacor drivers something expensive for what they offer, and I really dislike the datasheets Monacor provides (poor and insufficient data). I used the SPH-8M woofer in a 3-way (something similar to what I linked before), and the speaker was pretty good, but I got the woofer used at much less than half the new price, and I used Dayton Audio drivers for mid and highs (RS-125P and ND28F).
Ralf
(*) Strangely it is advised to parallel 10 and 2.2 uF caps, but you can use a single 12 uF cap, and to parallel 33 and 5.6 uF caps, but you can use a 39 uF cap (using a single cap instead of paralleling 2 caps does always cost less).
i realy liked that SBAcoustics-3WC , but cant get the speakers here . ordering the whole thing is way to expensive for me . Im watching the the data now its looking good for me . Im gona search for those speakers around but ... i have time ,not rushing it 🙂 . Vent look a bit long gona play around it , where those ports resonans shoud be ?! . Thanks very much for the help Ray , I have a basic idea what to do and how now 🙂
why this is not looking ok to me , its a problem right ? both drivers in the same 45.8L box at 35Hz freq.
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As I said before, the Monacor datasheets aren't accurate. If you use part of the TS parameters provided for the SP150 you can calculate that SPL is 86.5dB and not 90 (and BL is only 5.6). It is entirely possible to design a crossover using FR charts provided by the manufacturer, but in this case I wouldn't do it because I simply don't trust the datasheet. Period. Besides that, this is a cheap driver with very low xmax for a mid-woofer, that is optimized for a relatively small closed box, say 10L, for where you end up with a -6dB point at around 50Hz, but runs out of excursion with only 4W. A bigger box provides better bass extension, but with an even worse power handling. Forget this driver as a mid-woofer, and also as a pure mid, because you'll need some robust tweeter as you'll need to choose likely a crossover point at less than 2KHz.
You can put two woofer in the same cabinet, even if they aren't equal, but then this is not a 3-way and becomes a 2-way. If you want a 3-way speaker, you need to have a crossover between the woofer and the mid, but in this case the drivers can't share the same cabinet, because the air moved from the woofer playing bass will distort the mid, resulting in bad sound.
Returning to your goal to build a 3-way, what is the price you are thinking to spend? I'm still convinced that if you buy some random drivers, cheap or not, put it together with some random crossover, you end up throwing away your money. Search a reputable kit at your correct price point and simply build that. Another example of a non expensive 3-way: Tarkus - undefinition
The only problem with the Tarkus is the use of non standard components (notably the 6.0mH coil), but I can suggest audiokit.it as a single shop for the kit, only as satisfied customer in the past, as they can provide tailored coils (buy an oversized coil and they will remove the appropriate length of wire to arrive at the correct value).
Ralf
PS: cheap and 3-way don't go well together
You can put two woofer in the same cabinet, even if they aren't equal, but then this is not a 3-way and becomes a 2-way. If you want a 3-way speaker, you need to have a crossover between the woofer and the mid, but in this case the drivers can't share the same cabinet, because the air moved from the woofer playing bass will distort the mid, resulting in bad sound.
Returning to your goal to build a 3-way, what is the price you are thinking to spend? I'm still convinced that if you buy some random drivers, cheap or not, put it together with some random crossover, you end up throwing away your money. Search a reputable kit at your correct price point and simply build that. Another example of a non expensive 3-way: Tarkus - undefinition
The only problem with the Tarkus is the use of non standard components (notably the 6.0mH coil), but I can suggest audiokit.it as a single shop for the kit, only as satisfied customer in the past, as they can provide tailored coils (buy an oversized coil and they will remove the appropriate length of wire to arrive at the correct value).
Ralf
PS: cheap and 3-way don't go well together
I would firstly you double check the driver data I provided for WinISD.
I can see the SP8 does not have Pe entered, but that should not effect dyour data results.
You are basically seeing the difference in the drivers sensitivities along with how the two loudspeakers behave in "Individual" boxes of the samesize and the same vent length. A vent length of 15cm isnt too long.
One driver tunes flat and the other gives you a bass hump. All typical behaviour. By changineg box size and port dimensions you can change the response to give you various alignments and Q's, you can flatten the bump if you wish by altering the tuning frequency and box size.
As I said in an earlier post, the midrange unitand is more of a bass woofer. The plot shows this. You could tune its box dimensions and port to give a reasonable flat bass response if you wish. However, for a midrange you want a basic frequency response typically in the range to 500/800Hz - 2000/3000Hz.
Maybe somebody seeing this who has done a Monacor three way will post and give some more details. I will have a look at their range for a midrange driver and let you have my thoughts. Maybe your original choice of midrange was easier to implement as it already comes with its own enclosure
I can see the SP8 does not have Pe entered, but that should not effect dyour data results.
You are basically seeing the difference in the drivers sensitivities along with how the two loudspeakers behave in "Individual" boxes of the samesize and the same vent length. A vent length of 15cm isnt too long.
One driver tunes flat and the other gives you a bass hump. All typical behaviour. By changineg box size and port dimensions you can change the response to give you various alignments and Q's, you can flatten the bump if you wish by altering the tuning frequency and box size.
As I said in an earlier post, the midrange unitand is more of a bass woofer. The plot shows this. You could tune its box dimensions and port to give a reasonable flat bass response if you wish. However, for a midrange you want a basic frequency response typically in the range to 500/800Hz - 2000/3000Hz.
Maybe somebody seeing this who has done a Monacor three way will post and give some more details. I will have a look at their range for a midrange driver and let you have my thoughts. Maybe your original choice of midrange was easier to implement as it already comes with its own enclosure
Giralfino posted whilst I was responding.
I haven't used Monacor drivers so cannot comment on their data.
I do agree with his comments.
We have both suggested designs using the drivers from Troels site for either and SBAcoustics or Seas three way.
Buy the SBAcoustics or SEAS drivers, and use your friend to make same cabinets to the exact dimenisons as shown in the website, and then start designing your own crossovers. I assume basic components aren't an issue.
If you take your time this should get you a lot closer to your ideal speaker.
I haven't used Monacor drivers so cannot comment on their data.
I do agree with his comments.
We have both suggested designs using the drivers from Troels site for either and SBAcoustics or Seas three way.
Buy the SBAcoustics or SEAS drivers, and use your friend to make same cabinets to the exact dimenisons as shown in the website, and then start designing your own crossovers. I assume basic components aren't an issue.
If you take your time this should get you a lot closer to your ideal speaker.
People build speakers with two approaches: to save money or as a hobby. Hobby is something that involves lots of money, in case of speaker building, it means learning lots of things, owning measurement equipment, and knowing that in order to arrive at a good or exceptional sounding speaker the money involved in the whole process is probably much more than what a similar commercial speaker cost (the successful speaker is not the first...).
If you want to save money building yourself, you need to careful choose an already published design, something that comes from a reputable designer. In this case it seems to me that the OP wants to build something on the cheap, and this is contrary to the hobby concept, so this is the reason I was suggesting some published designs, and to throw away the concept to build something choosing random drivers and hoping to arrive at a satisfactory result spending less money.
I wasn't suggesting some of the newer Troels designs basically for one reason. The newer designs are closed, meaning you can only buy the whole kit. I don't have problems with this concept (some money goes to Troels for his work), but the choices offered are only expensive components or ever more expensive components. For someone who likes cross coils or boutique caps this is fully OK, but not for me.
Again, I suggest the OP to think the price point for this project.
Ralf
If you want to save money building yourself, you need to careful choose an already published design, something that comes from a reputable designer. In this case it seems to me that the OP wants to build something on the cheap, and this is contrary to the hobby concept, so this is the reason I was suggesting some published designs, and to throw away the concept to build something choosing random drivers and hoping to arrive at a satisfactory result spending less money.
I wasn't suggesting some of the newer Troels designs basically for one reason. The newer designs are closed, meaning you can only buy the whole kit. I don't have problems with this concept (some money goes to Troels for his work), but the choices offered are only expensive components or ever more expensive components. For someone who likes cross coils or boutique caps this is fully OK, but not for me.
Again, I suggest the OP to think the price point for this project.
Ralf
i scraped the diy part at the moment , gona try when i get more knowledge .i bought a Pioneer HPM-300 for 190eu , but there are some manipulations done to one of the woofers , and i think both speakers sounds a bit diferend . Can i replace both of the woofers wihout shiting on the thing , its hard to find any data of that drivers . Its "Pioneer 20-746A-1" ?
If I understand correctly what you're saying, you need to replace a woofer. Your only way to do that without the need to change the crossover and/or box (*), is to buy a working woofer of the same model. If the model name/number isn't written on the woofer itself I don't know where you can find the info.
(*) The problem with replacing a defective woofer with a different one is that you need to ensure that in respect to the old woofer the new one needs to have:
1) the same sensitivity
2) the same frequency response over the intended range of operations
3) the same impedance over the intended range of operations
4) the same T/S parameters, or a combination that yields the same bass extension in the intended box
If the box is closed and the crossover point to the mid isn't very high (say max 500-600 Hz), then you need to ensure at least point 1 and 3. But even if you know all the data for the old woofer, finding a drop-in replacement is very hard, but if you don't know the data and don't have the capacity of measure yourself then I'd say it is impossible.
Ralf
(*) The problem with replacing a defective woofer with a different one is that you need to ensure that in respect to the old woofer the new one needs to have:
1) the same sensitivity
2) the same frequency response over the intended range of operations
3) the same impedance over the intended range of operations
4) the same T/S parameters, or a combination that yields the same bass extension in the intended box
If the box is closed and the crossover point to the mid isn't very high (say max 500-600 Hz), then you need to ensure at least point 1 and 3. But even if you know all the data for the old woofer, finding a drop-in replacement is very hard, but if you don't know the data and don't have the capacity of measure yourself then I'd say it is impossible.
Ralf
ah thanks Ralf . Well the speakers are 1980y produced , finding the same woofer not gona happen . I still have other woofer wich is looking good and sound good also . i will measure on this one impendance ( dont know how to measure the DB but will find out ) . Got some data for the speakers its sais 40-50Hz - 20Khz , crossover 1500/8000 , Bass: 1 x 200mm Polymer Graphite cone . 89 DB
Is the driver itself DB higher then those 89 DB from the speakers ?
If i find a paper cone , thats gona change alot right even with close T/S parameters?
Is the driver itself DB higher then those 89 DB from the speakers ?
If i find a paper cone , thats gona change alot right even with close T/S parameters?