Some friends are opening up a small venue where they will show films and have live music (same space)... I have a few questions regarding their setup, so that I can think about what we might make DIY, and what is better bought.
Their space is a bit of a weird size, 19'6" wide, about 45' long, and 14-15' ceilings. The ceiling at the front of the room where the projection screen will be is 12'9".
Local music store is trying to sell a pair of QSC K12.2 powered PA speakers for mains, and seems to think they will need four EV ZLX-12P-G2 for stage monitors for bands... that seems a bit excessive on the number of monitors, given that the stage will be at most 12' deep and probably less than the full 19'6" in width. I'm telling them to start with two stage monitors and buy more if they're actually needed. Any other recommendations on powered PA speakers for a space like this would be welcome.
For showing movies, I've convinced them to stick to basic stereo plus subwoofers for now, since it will be tough to get decent surround sound setup in such a long room, and a lot of the movies they want to show won't even have surround. I am going to build some subs, since what the music people wanted to sell don't go below 40hz, and they want a bunch of money for that. The same sound system will double for bands and movies for now. I've got a few drivers to try out, and was planning to build 2-4 subs for them once we figure out a good design.
I'd like to build some sort of massive line arrays for them in the future for the movie sound. Also considering something like a set of synergy horns to help control the directivity a bit, since the space is so narrow and long, and maybe those would reduce the need for acoustic treatment on walls/ceiling.
What kind of SPL level should we be targeting in there? I don't want ears to bleed, but I also don't want the sound system to struggle, either. What would be good radiation angles (horizontal and vertical) for the speakers to have?
Thanks in advance!
Their space is a bit of a weird size, 19'6" wide, about 45' long, and 14-15' ceilings. The ceiling at the front of the room where the projection screen will be is 12'9".
Local music store is trying to sell a pair of QSC K12.2 powered PA speakers for mains, and seems to think they will need four EV ZLX-12P-G2 for stage monitors for bands... that seems a bit excessive on the number of monitors, given that the stage will be at most 12' deep and probably less than the full 19'6" in width. I'm telling them to start with two stage monitors and buy more if they're actually needed. Any other recommendations on powered PA speakers for a space like this would be welcome.
For showing movies, I've convinced them to stick to basic stereo plus subwoofers for now, since it will be tough to get decent surround sound setup in such a long room, and a lot of the movies they want to show won't even have surround. I am going to build some subs, since what the music people wanted to sell don't go below 40hz, and they want a bunch of money for that. The same sound system will double for bands and movies for now. I've got a few drivers to try out, and was planning to build 2-4 subs for them once we figure out a good design.
I'd like to build some sort of massive line arrays for them in the future for the movie sound. Also considering something like a set of synergy horns to help control the directivity a bit, since the space is so narrow and long, and maybe those would reduce the need for acoustic treatment on walls/ceiling.
What kind of SPL level should we be targeting in there? I don't want ears to bleed, but I also don't want the sound system to struggle, either. What would be good radiation angles (horizontal and vertical) for the speakers to have?
Thanks in advance!
Tons of monitors on a small stage in a small room leads to inteligibility problems out front from all that stage noise, and bands are really starting to embrace in ear monitoring so you're right to throw up a red flag on the monitors. I'm also a ZLX owner and while I appreciate how light and easy to handle they are I'm not in love with thier sound, I'd rather have a wooden box of some sort. To that end have a serious look at EV's PMX-12mp, the coaxial design has a wider and more consistent sweet spot which can make it possible to do more with less boxes, they have a wood enclosure which remains more controlled at lower frequencies, and the footprint is low profile and clean.
As for your subs, yes movies have different requirements than live performances but you will need to spend serious $$ on subs and amplification to produce subsonic rumble in a room this size... a couple 12's won't cut it. For live bands you need lots of 50-80hz.. like 2-4 1000w 18's worth, so maybe try to hit a middle ground with a 30-35hz F3 design that still has some rumble but doesn't lose all authority in the kick drum region.
SPL requirements will vary a lot depending on genre and event type, but I have done bands in similar sized rooms with one EKX12p over an EKX18sp per side, sometimes that is more than adequate sometimes I'm left wanting more.
In reverbant spaces you have to do everything you can to keep energy off of the boundaries and focused on the listeners, so in a deep-narrow room speakers with an extremely wide dispersion like a line array are all wrong, it can work if the walls & ceiling are well treated but you're creating a problem you have to fix.. why not just use speakers with a narrower more controlled radiating pattern.
As for your subs, yes movies have different requirements than live performances but you will need to spend serious $$ on subs and amplification to produce subsonic rumble in a room this size... a couple 12's won't cut it. For live bands you need lots of 50-80hz.. like 2-4 1000w 18's worth, so maybe try to hit a middle ground with a 30-35hz F3 design that still has some rumble but doesn't lose all authority in the kick drum region.
SPL requirements will vary a lot depending on genre and event type, but I have done bands in similar sized rooms with one EKX12p over an EKX18sp per side, sometimes that is more than adequate sometimes I'm left wanting more.
In reverbant spaces you have to do everything you can to keep energy off of the boundaries and focused on the listeners, so in a deep-narrow room speakers with an extremely wide dispersion like a line array are all wrong, it can work if the walls & ceiling are well treated but you're creating a problem you have to fix.. why not just use speakers with a narrower more controlled radiating pattern.
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Thanks for that recommendation. I don't know what all they want in the way of bands, but they want to be versatile in terms of making it work for open mic type thing up to more professional type gigs. the local folks aren't going to have in ear stuff to work with... I imagine they will get the appropriate amps/controls/whatever for being able to support in ear monitors somewhere down the line.
I'll have a look at the PMX-12's and see how they stack up for mains.
This doesn't need to be a perfect system from the get go, it just needs to be good enough with plenty of room for growth. The idea is to have a basic PA setup that can get dragged outside and used in front of the venue for street fair type things, as well as serve for inside stage and movie sound until something better gets bought or made.
The second generation K.2 boxes from QSC are very capable and good sounding, they are certainly a step or 2 above the EV ZLX12p more on par with the EV EKX12p which might even be slightly better due it having a wooden box versus the QSCs abs enclosure. Plastic boxes can produce a bit of a loose/under damped/wooly low freq sound at higher drive levels when operating full range without subs, however this usually isn't an issue when crossed over to subs.
My suggestion of the EV PXM cabs was for monitors, it may be that you could get away with just 2 of these to start instead of buying 4 of the ZLXs. These can be used as mains too as they do have a pole cup.
All of these boxes have extensive DSP processing built in, all the EV boxes I own have been flawless with zero breakdowns over more than a decade of use and they are regularly pushed for all they are worth, the built in protection is outstanding. They also sound quite good without any additional processing applied. Any of these... QSC K.2, EV EKX, Yamaha DXR would be a excellent place to start, they all offer very good performance for the cost.
My suggestion of the EV PXM cabs was for monitors, it may be that you could get away with just 2 of these to start instead of buying 4 of the ZLXs. These can be used as mains too as they do have a pole cup.
All of these boxes have extensive DSP processing built in, all the EV boxes I own have been flawless with zero breakdowns over more than a decade of use and they are regularly pushed for all they are worth, the built in protection is outstanding. They also sound quite good without any additional processing applied. Any of these... QSC K.2, EV EKX, Yamaha DXR would be a excellent place to start, they all offer very good performance for the cost.
What do you think of the ekx 15 vs the ekx12? It’s $100 more, otherwise basically the same specs in a slightly bigger box.
I think it would be smart to have their setup use all the same brand of powered speakers to keep it easy for them to manage.
I think it would be smart to have their setup use all the same brand of powered speakers to keep it easy for them to manage.
Subs are needed for just about any music genre these days so there is no advantage in chosing 15" mains over 12", the 15s are larger and heavier making them more work to put on stands and a 15" driver is a poorer midrange than a 12". For any event that doesn't need subs the 12s will do a fine job too.
Yes all matching boxes helps with setup, all the EV powered boxes(subs and tops) have presets to utilize when pairing them together which sets crossover frequencies, slopes, and time alignment for optimum performance.
Yes all matching boxes helps with setup, all the EV powered boxes(subs and tops) have presets to utilize when pairing them together which sets crossover frequencies, slopes, and time alignment for optimum performance.