I'm looking to make my own version of these speakers, the Gemme Tanto: http://74.59.244.35:9081/gemmeAudio/features/Products.html I recently demoed a pair and was floored by the sound. But since I'm handy with a table saw and don't have the kind of money they were asking, I thought I'd try to make a pair of my own.
They appear to use a Vifa XT19 and 6.5" Silver Flute woofer. From what I hear, the capacitor used is a Mundorf S/O. Also, the woofer has no x-over and is 8ohms, making the speaker closer to 6 ohms.
Since my room is a black hole for bass, I'd like to use one of the 8" versions of the Silver Flute woofer, specifically the W20RC38-S. It digs nice and deep, and from what little I know, it looks like it should work well with the XT19 since they're also close in efficiency.
Here is my WinISD plot: http://www.cleanandquiet.com/upload/store/8inchsilverflute.jpg
So does this look like a go or am I way off base?
Thanks for any help!
They appear to use a Vifa XT19 and 6.5" Silver Flute woofer. From what I hear, the capacitor used is a Mundorf S/O. Also, the woofer has no x-over and is 8ohms, making the speaker closer to 6 ohms.
Since my room is a black hole for bass, I'd like to use one of the 8" versions of the Silver Flute woofer, specifically the W20RC38-S. It digs nice and deep, and from what little I know, it looks like it should work well with the XT19 since they're also close in efficiency.
Here is my WinISD plot: http://www.cleanandquiet.com/upload/store/8inchsilverflute.jpg
So does this look like a go or am I way off base?
Thanks for any help!
Um, hmm...
Although I am a big fan of Vifa's concentric dome tweeters and Silver Flute's build quality, I have to say that design sort of files itself in my brain as "that doesn't really seem possible."
I dunno. I have only used the Silver Flute 5.5" midwoofer, which is quite good for the price. But I can't really imagine running it full-range, as there is cone breakup. The reason I haven't tried the 6.5" or larger is because I couldn't find a box alignment for any of them that was reasonable in size that got an F3 any lower than about 47 Hz. Now yours is almost 90 Liters, which is pretty huge for a 2-way. I'm not saying it wouldn't work... in fact, I'm thinking that's gotta be the minimum size to get a nice low F3.
However, you say you've heard these speakers and you really liked them, so I'm definitely not here to rain on your parade. In fact, I'd like to see this project work for you. So let me see if I can help:
I would not go for the larger Silver Flute woofer . I understand your craving for bass, but I just don't think it's going to make the leap all the way up to a 6 KHz crossover point. I'd try to match the original design using the W17RC38.
I'm not the best at box modeling, but I'm not terrible at it, either. I honestly don't know how to get much low-end extension from that driver's T/S specs--unless you put it in a pretty big box (45 L or so) and tune it to 35 or 40 Hz. This gets you an F3 of maybe 40 Hz, but the knee of the bass is a bit awkward. It's sort of verrry gradual taper off from 800 Hz down, then a bump at like 50 Hz before dropping off. But maybe the folks over at Gemme were doing something unorthodox. "Vflex turbo-charging sub-bass technology"
Anyway, the tweeter (a fantastic tweeter, by the way) needs a REALLY high crossover point if you're using 1st order electrical. Their literature says it's 6 dB down at 6000 Hz. A simple cap on the tweeter isn't enough, though. The roll off looks ugly, and I'm sure it sounds worse. Plus, the tweeter is definitely louder than the woofer. So I'd suggest at least an L-pad (though an LCR impedance filter would be even smarter with that particular tweeter).
I tried modeling up the XT-19, and it can actually hit a pretty accurate 1st order roll off with this XO:
(in series before tweeter) 6.2 uF cap->1 Ohm resistor
(in parallel w/ tweeter) 5 Ohm resistor
Would it sound like anything? Beats me. But you need SOMETHING to compensate for the large impedance spike in the tweeter, and it just so happens that a 5 Ohm resistor in parallel will do that. HOWEVER, this is a pretty brutal load @ 3 Ohms. Then again, that's not counting the 6.5" woofer running full-range... which could throw the system impedance an a whole new direction
I'm just trying to help. Not sure if I did
Although I am a big fan of Vifa's concentric dome tweeters and Silver Flute's build quality, I have to say that design sort of files itself in my brain as "that doesn't really seem possible."
I dunno. I have only used the Silver Flute 5.5" midwoofer, which is quite good for the price. But I can't really imagine running it full-range, as there is cone breakup. The reason I haven't tried the 6.5" or larger is because I couldn't find a box alignment for any of them that was reasonable in size that got an F3 any lower than about 47 Hz. Now yours is almost 90 Liters, which is pretty huge for a 2-way. I'm not saying it wouldn't work... in fact, I'm thinking that's gotta be the minimum size to get a nice low F3.
However, you say you've heard these speakers and you really liked them, so I'm definitely not here to rain on your parade. In fact, I'd like to see this project work for you. So let me see if I can help:
I would not go for the larger Silver Flute woofer . I understand your craving for bass, but I just don't think it's going to make the leap all the way up to a 6 KHz crossover point. I'd try to match the original design using the W17RC38.
I'm not the best at box modeling, but I'm not terrible at it, either. I honestly don't know how to get much low-end extension from that driver's T/S specs--unless you put it in a pretty big box (45 L or so) and tune it to 35 or 40 Hz. This gets you an F3 of maybe 40 Hz, but the knee of the bass is a bit awkward. It's sort of verrry gradual taper off from 800 Hz down, then a bump at like 50 Hz before dropping off. But maybe the folks over at Gemme were doing something unorthodox. "Vflex turbo-charging sub-bass technology"
Anyway, the tweeter (a fantastic tweeter, by the way) needs a REALLY high crossover point if you're using 1st order electrical. Their literature says it's 6 dB down at 6000 Hz. A simple cap on the tweeter isn't enough, though. The roll off looks ugly, and I'm sure it sounds worse. Plus, the tweeter is definitely louder than the woofer. So I'd suggest at least an L-pad (though an LCR impedance filter would be even smarter with that particular tweeter).
I tried modeling up the XT-19, and it can actually hit a pretty accurate 1st order roll off with this XO:
(in series before tweeter) 6.2 uF cap->1 Ohm resistor
(in parallel w/ tweeter) 5 Ohm resistor
Would it sound like anything? Beats me. But you need SOMETHING to compensate for the large impedance spike in the tweeter, and it just so happens that a 5 Ohm resistor in parallel will do that. HOWEVER, this is a pretty brutal load @ 3 Ohms. Then again, that's not counting the 6.5" woofer running full-range... which could throw the system impedance an a whole new direction
I'm just trying to help. Not sure if I did
Re: Um, hmm...
90 litres isn't much when I'm used to staring at a pair of 15" Tannoys in 200 litre cabs. 😉
As for their "Vflex turbo-charging sub-bass technology", from http://www.dagogo.com/GemmeTanto.html , it appears to be horn loading with a traditional port at the end.
Impedance isn't much of a concern here with my gear.
Thanks for your help.
EDIT: It appears I can't edit my original post, the woofer is a 4 ohm driver, not 8.
90 litres isn't much when I'm used to staring at a pair of 15" Tannoys in 200 litre cabs. 😉
As for their "Vflex turbo-charging sub-bass technology", from http://www.dagogo.com/GemmeTanto.html , it appears to be horn loading with a traditional port at the end.
Impedance isn't much of a concern here with my gear.
Thanks for your help.
EDIT: It appears I can't edit my original post, the woofer is a 4 ohm driver, not 8.
there's a project here using the 8" including actual measure T/S parameters, they seem to vary quite a bit from those published : http://chadgray.info/projectdetail.cfm?ProjectID=24
I had a feeling that may be the case. 🙁sreten said:
Thanks for your help everyone.
So any recommendations for a large two way using a Vifa ring radiator?
Face said:
That IS a good question. I'm not completely sure where to point you, but this guy uses them a lot:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
Also, this article details a design for it combined with a HiVi M8a
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22862
Another one that could be very good:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZD5.html
I haven't heard this particular design, but the 8530K Revelator is an amazing midwoofer, and this is a pretty "basic" 2-way floorstanding design--although the XO is pretty complex. For its size, the bass the 5.5" Revelator produces is miraculous. (don't get me wrong, the midrange and dynamics are outstanding too) I have never heard or seen anything else perform like it.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZD5.html
I haven't heard this particular design, but the 8530K Revelator is an amazing midwoofer, and this is a pretty "basic" 2-way floorstanding design--although the XO is pretty complex. For its size, the bass the 5.5" Revelator produces is miraculous. (don't get me wrong, the midrange and dynamics are outstanding too) I have never heard or seen anything else perform like it.
Thanks for all your help and suggestions.
I'm probably going to try something a little different...and bigger.
I've done some reading here on the Vifa XT25 in a wave guide and also of the Peerless 830669, it appears they make work together. I'll start a new thread in this section.
Thanks again for your help.
I'm probably going to try something a little different...and bigger.
I've done some reading here on the Vifa XT25 in a wave guide and also of the Peerless 830669, it appears they make work together. I'll start a new thread in this section.
Thanks again for your help.
Going back to this...maybe.
After thinking more and more about OB designs, I may use the SF woofer as a mid and add a OB 15, maybe two. 😀
After thinking more and more about OB designs, I may use the SF woofer as a mid and add a OB 15, maybe two. 😀
I have recently used the 4ohm 8" Silver Flute woofer in a 1.5 with a ribbon tweeter and the results aren't bad. There is a small rise in response around 5-6k that is slightly audible but I let it roll off without a coil anyways as it sounds better that way. The 6.5" used in the Tanto is smoother on paper and I'm sure it could be used full range without any problems, the 8" tends to beam at higher frequencies too. I think the Silver Flutes are a pretty good value BTW, build quality is good for the money.
Don't use the 8 ohm version !
Gemme Audio use 4 ohm for one reason LOOK THE FREQ RESPONSE between 4 - 8 ohm version and you understand why
I'm a very big FAN of Silver Flute all serie 5-6-8 inch (4ohm) was very great woofer without need crossover (FULLPASS)
with XT vifa tweeter it's the best mix !
My front speaker is DALINE silver flute (4x) 5 inch with vifa tweeter and it's AMAZING ! I have 7 channel ALL with silver flute woofer.
I try many other midwoofer (Peerless - Audax - Vifa - HiVi - Visaton - etc...) and the sound of silver flute is simply CRAZY !
Thanks !
nicK
My system is :
Shigaclone CD player
DAC LAMPUCERA 1,0
Gainclone LM4780 amplifier (2 channel)
7.1 preamp & bluRay by PC
Gainclone LM4780 amplifier (5 channel)
7 channel loudspeaker (SilverFlute-Vifa)
Powered Subwoofer 7cf Eosone 12 inch
Gemme Audio use 4 ohm for one reason LOOK THE FREQ RESPONSE between 4 - 8 ohm version and you understand why
I'm a very big FAN of Silver Flute all serie 5-6-8 inch (4ohm) was very great woofer without need crossover (FULLPASS)
with XT vifa tweeter it's the best mix !
My front speaker is DALINE silver flute (4x) 5 inch with vifa tweeter and it's AMAZING ! I have 7 channel ALL with silver flute woofer.
I try many other midwoofer (Peerless - Audax - Vifa - HiVi - Visaton - etc...) and the sound of silver flute is simply CRAZY !
Thanks !
nicK
My system is :
Shigaclone CD player
DAC LAMPUCERA 1,0
Gainclone LM4780 amplifier (2 channel)
7.1 preamp & bluRay by PC
Gainclone LM4780 amplifier (5 channel)
7 channel loudspeaker (SilverFlute-Vifa)
Powered Subwoofer 7cf Eosone 12 inch
don't forget for best flat response use 4 ohm and try "solen split" crossover type on tweeter only with one capacitor SOLEN brand (400V) work great for the price.
I Cut my tweeter at 5500 hz
tweeter Re = 3.0 ohm = 6,8 uF
parts model Solen PB680
with XT serie VIFA you don't need to add L-PAD to reduce tweeter power.
nicK
I Cut my tweeter at 5500 hz
tweeter Re = 3.0 ohm = 6,8 uF
parts model Solen PB680
with XT serie VIFA you don't need to add L-PAD to reduce tweeter power.
nicK
I have several Solens, Daytons, and Sonic Caps I can use for that value already.
Time to order the drivers, thanks again.
Time to order the drivers, thanks again.
I'm happy to see other people taking the 1.5 route. There really is a certain something that vanishes as the crossover count rises. I want to build a pair of coaxials out the Silver Flute 6" woofers running fullrange with a decent neo tweeter mounted on top of the pole piece, this should help control the lobing associated with crossing high with such a shallow slope.
Ok, it's somewhat together.
I'm using the shielded 4ohm woofer with the xt19, but in a OB. I threw it together like this just for testing purposes and I was pleasantly surprised by the sound.
Now I'm thinking about leaving the silver flute 6.5 and xt19 on a open baffle, and adding a woofer for the low end(up to 180hz).
I also plan on adding a cap to the woofer to protect it from low frequencies.
Any recommendations for a woofer? I was thinking about 1 or 2 silver flute 8" woofers, specifically the shielded 8 ohm version. They appear to have the best bottom end. Using WinISD, it appears they'll need a pretty large box to dig deep though.
Another alternative would be a pair of OB servo subs from GR Research, but 4 12" subs + 2 servo amps is out of my budget for now.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mike
I'm using the shielded 4ohm woofer with the xt19, but in a OB. I threw it together like this just for testing purposes and I was pleasantly surprised by the sound.
Now I'm thinking about leaving the silver flute 6.5 and xt19 on a open baffle, and adding a woofer for the low end(up to 180hz).
I also plan on adding a cap to the woofer to protect it from low frequencies.
Any recommendations for a woofer? I was thinking about 1 or 2 silver flute 8" woofers, specifically the shielded 8 ohm version. They appear to have the best bottom end. Using WinISD, it appears they'll need a pretty large box to dig deep though.
Another alternative would be a pair of OB servo subs from GR Research, but 4 12" subs + 2 servo amps is out of my budget for now.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mike
I like the silver flutes but none of the 8" drivers seem capable of great low frequency duty. I paired my 8" silver flute "mid bass" in OB with a PE buyout 15" pro woofer, also in OB with wings but the two never really played all that well together. I'm cheating right now by using a subwoofer with a set of OB 5 1/2" MTMs and it works suprisingly well. Most OB's will start to roll off at ~ 160hz or so depending upon the baffle so integrating a sub is tough. I was also debating using a huge cap to protect my midbass drivers so I decided to just add a second woofer and halve my excursion that way. Have you been to the Mr. Lampizator web site yet? He has a ton of OB projects and some good info.
Sorry, I wrote that in a rush last night. The W20RC38-S (8" woofer) will go in a ported box, not OB.
Using WinISD, a 3ft3 box tuned to 30hz looks pretty good.
Thanks for any feedback,
Mike
Using WinISD, a 3ft3 box tuned to 30hz looks pretty good.
Thanks for any feedback,
Mike
Ok, I lost it. I went out and purchased a pair of 10" Seas woofers(L26RFX/P)
Now the question is, which testing software/hardware should I pick up for integration?
To start out, I'm thinking about crossing them around 180hz, since that's when the SF tapers off in open baffle. The next issue is to match SPL levels, if I should pad down the top end or bi-amp.
Time to make the cabinets. 🙂
Mike
Now the question is, which testing software/hardware should I pick up for integration?
To start out, I'm thinking about crossing them around 180hz, since that's when the SF tapers off in open baffle. The next issue is to match SPL levels, if I should pad down the top end or bi-amp.
Time to make the cabinets. 🙂
Mike
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