Hi everybody,
I'm new here, and need some advice.
I'm considering using some Morel MW-168/4 in my car, and wonder if auto speakers are built differently to stand up the temperature and humidity extremes of a car door.
Also, the FR on the 168 drops off after 5k, and I was wondering if I'd be safe using a 12dB/oct @ 3.5k crossover on that speaker.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
🙂
Derrick
I'm new here, and need some advice.
I'm considering using some Morel MW-168/4 in my car, and wonder if auto speakers are built differently to stand up the temperature and humidity extremes of a car door.
Also, the FR on the 168 drops off after 5k, and I was wondering if I'd be safe using a 12dB/oct @ 3.5k crossover on that speaker.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
🙂
Derrick
nope, you'll be fine. I run Vifa PL 7's in my doors, a pair of Vifa/Infinity 4" mids and Morel MDT10 tweets in my car with no problems.
just keep the water off them and you'll be fine.
just keep the water off them and you'll be fine.
One thing to watch out for is the low end extension. As they're designed to work in smaller enclosures than a car door you probably won't get much out put below 100hz..
If you're not expecting that then you'll be fine.
If you're not expecting that then you'll be fine.
From what I understand (admittedly little), for a car environment you need a Qts of .70 or above...most "car" specific speakers have a Qts of 1.0 or more (I think), unless designed for enclosures only. For that reason I got a set of Pyramid w64 midbass drivers to experiment with, I know Pyramid's rep but they sound OK except for that high mid (3500-5000Hz) range. They have a Qts of .74 and SPL of 94db. They also have foam surrounds, which are the real issue in a car, but I was told by a guy at partsexpress that treating the surrounds with armor-all will help block UV rays. My old pioneer 6.5" coaxials are ten years old with intact foams...who knows?
Are you putting these in front, in back, in a box? Interesting aside about sizes -- turns out "car" 6.5" is actually about 6-1/8", so when I got these they just barely didn't fit. In keeping with my nickname, I used some weatherstrip foam to seal off the hole and stuck the speakers down with sticky-tak.
Let me know how it turns out, esp. the crossover...I'm planning on starting with a 6db filter at 1250Hz and seeing how it sounds, but I'll probably end up with a setup like yours.
Are you putting these in front, in back, in a box? Interesting aside about sizes -- turns out "car" 6.5" is actually about 6-1/8", so when I got these they just barely didn't fit. In keeping with my nickname, I used some weatherstrip foam to seal off the hole and stuck the speakers down with sticky-tak.
Let me know how it turns out, esp. the crossover...I'm planning on starting with a 6db filter at 1250Hz and seeing how it sounds, but I'll probably end up with a setup like yours.
Well, I had decided against this path when one of my tweeters started distorting, because I need new everything now. However, I found someone selling some mw-168's with tweeters for about what the 168's cost new. So, now I'm considering it again.
These would be going in the front doors.
These would be going in the front doors.
generally you're right, a qts of .7 is ideal, but not required. My Vifa PL 7" in one of my doors has a Qts of .35 and I play it down to 50hz in deadened doors with about 150w. I have to be a little careful with it down that low, but it works out well. There are quite a few peole running the Adire Koda midbass in their doors and I beleve it has a Qts of around .4 or .5 (right?).
the best thing you can do for your midbass in the doors is deaden the hell out of them. I use Peel and Seal (roofing material smilar to dynamat) for my mass loading and it works very well. It's about 1/4 the cost of dynamat per sq. ft. and a little more than 1/2 as much as the other main stream deadening companies (eDead, Rammat, FatMat, etc). Some people can find it at Lowes or Home Depot, but I had no such luck. You may also call local roofing supply stores and see if they have it. If not, and you're interested, shoot me an email and I'll foreward you the email addy of a peel and seal cust service rep that hooked me up with the phone#'s and names of some local suppliers. I just did a friend's car and it ran him about $25 for somethign like 36sq ft. ----It is thinner than dynamat (45mills vs 60mills) but if you double it up it's still way cheaper and a little thicker.
I have pics on my website if you want to check things out.
are these Morel speakers 6.5's or 8's? I had a pair of mw166's in my car and I wouldn't do it again. They had almost nothing below 100hz. they'd bottom out and distort with anything above low volume when crossed at 50 or 80hz. I had them in open doors, deadened doors, sealed kickpannels and vented kickpannels and each had the same result.
I have been told that Morel 8's don't suffere from this problem. A guy on the car audio board I go to a lot has a pair of 8wr's for his midbasses and he loves them. They keep up with his pair of Brahama 15's in the back end, he said.
I've head great things about the Peerless CSX and HDS line for car use. Also, the Dayton Ref midbasses are supposed to be an excelent buy. They're pretty deep because of their shielding, but if you remove the back caseing and knock off the bucking magnet they're just under 3" and it doesn't affect the sound (so I'm told anyway, no personal experience)
www.elitecaraudio.com is an wonderful resource for car audio advice. A lot of guys over there use or have used DIY drivers and built their own component sets (myself included) with great results.
Thanks everybody. I ended up ordering some DLS component speakers that use Morel drivers. So, I'm still going with Morel, but somebody else has done all the hard work for me.
🙂
Derrick
🙂
Derrick
Thanks Cody--I'll call HD and Lowes and see who's got peel'n'seal here. New speakers should be here by Friday.
I'll try to deaded the doors as much as I can. Do I just need to door around the speaker area, or all of it?
I'll try to deaded the doors as much as I can. Do I just need to door around the speaker area, or all of it?
DerrickM said:
DLS makes really nice car speakers. I hope they treat you well.
To best deaden the door, do this:
1. Apply 1-2 layers to the outer door skin (if you think of the door as a box, the "back" of the inside of the box).
2. Apply some closed cell foam behind the driver (Parts Express has some for a good price)
3. If your car door has a flimsy plastic sheet covering the inner door skin, tear it off and throw it away.
4. Apply 1-2 layers of deadening material to the inner door skin. Seal up as many holes as you can. You're trying to make the door act like a good IB enclosure, so you want to separate the rear wave from the front wave.
5. If your stock mid is mounted on a flimsy plastic baffle, get rid of it and build a MDF ring to mount the driver.
Raamat is a great alternative to Peel & Seel. It is a little thicker and stickier. A lot of the DIY car audio community uses it. See www.raamaudio.com.
^^^that's how you do it.
rammat is a very good option too, but it's sitll a little more than peel and seal. some people have issues with P&S's adhesive, but they don't use heat, or enough of it. I use a hair dryer to put mine on and don't have any problems. Either product will work though, and the guy that owns rammat is a great guy who stands behind his product
rammat is a very good option too, but it's sitll a little more than peel and seal. some people have issues with P&S's adhesive, but they don't use heat, or enough of it. I use a hair dryer to put mine on and don't have any problems. Either product will work though, and the guy that owns rammat is a great guy who stands behind his product
Hi.
I bought Peel n Seal today at Lowes. I also have enough Dynamat left over from my last car to do around the mids.
The peel n seal has aluminum over it like metal duct tape--so I'm hoping it won't smell bad in the summer. (It is a rubberized asphalt product).
I'm experimenting with an elastomeric roofing compound for the outer door skin. If it doesn't smell bad when cured I'll coat as much of the outer skin as I can reach. It's very thick, rubbery, and I can put it on with a trowel for a non-smooth finish.
What do you mean by putting closed cell foam behind the speaker? I know what closed-cell means, but I'm trying to figure out where you mean I should place it.
Also, are you certain I should discard the plastic wrap? There's a big hole in the rear part of the door that I'm hesitant to cover with asphault. (The peel n seal would sag--i'd need something stiffer like dynamat or foam there. I do have some stout 3/4" closed cell foam available). For some reason, the door cover has a big plastic box that fits into the metal door with the open side of the box facing outward. I assume it's some kind of sound-dampening device--but I can't figure it out. I guess if I don't cover the giant hole I'll never truly get the rear waves away from the front waves though.
Thank you everybody for your kind advice. Speakers should be here in the next couple of days, and I'm really looking forward to getting this project completed.
For anyone wondering what the whole system looks like, here's a rundown:
Sony CDP-C90 head unit--was a $1200 top of the line unit when sony made it in 2001/2002.
Sony xdp-210eq--dsp based 1/2 octave eq. (Serves as main preamp when connected to HU--all functions including volume are via a data bus to this unit).
MTX 560-watt 4-channel amp. Birthsheet shows it putting out over 90 wpc rms @ 14.4 volts.
DLS UR6 components (using Morel drivers, as I said) for front.
A/D/S 346cs components for rear. (A/D/S is now owned by Directed Electronics, and is essentially a new brand. Drivers are said to be fabbed in China).
Sub: 12" Infinity Perfect 12.1 aluminum driver in .85 cf sealed box, with 200w rms amp (Rockford).
I bought Peel n Seal today at Lowes. I also have enough Dynamat left over from my last car to do around the mids.
The peel n seal has aluminum over it like metal duct tape--so I'm hoping it won't smell bad in the summer. (It is a rubberized asphalt product).
I'm experimenting with an elastomeric roofing compound for the outer door skin. If it doesn't smell bad when cured I'll coat as much of the outer skin as I can reach. It's very thick, rubbery, and I can put it on with a trowel for a non-smooth finish.
What do you mean by putting closed cell foam behind the speaker? I know what closed-cell means, but I'm trying to figure out where you mean I should place it.
Also, are you certain I should discard the plastic wrap? There's a big hole in the rear part of the door that I'm hesitant to cover with asphault. (The peel n seal would sag--i'd need something stiffer like dynamat or foam there. I do have some stout 3/4" closed cell foam available). For some reason, the door cover has a big plastic box that fits into the metal door with the open side of the box facing outward. I assume it's some kind of sound-dampening device--but I can't figure it out. I guess if I don't cover the giant hole I'll never truly get the rear waves away from the front waves though.
Thank you everybody for your kind advice. Speakers should be here in the next couple of days, and I'm really looking forward to getting this project completed.
For anyone wondering what the whole system looks like, here's a rundown:
Sony CDP-C90 head unit--was a $1200 top of the line unit when sony made it in 2001/2002.
Sony xdp-210eq--dsp based 1/2 octave eq. (Serves as main preamp when connected to HU--all functions including volume are via a data bus to this unit).
MTX 560-watt 4-channel amp. Birthsheet shows it putting out over 90 wpc rms @ 14.4 volts.
DLS UR6 components (using Morel drivers, as I said) for front.
A/D/S 346cs components for rear. (A/D/S is now owned by Directed Electronics, and is essentially a new brand. Drivers are said to be fabbed in China).
Sub: 12" Infinity Perfect 12.1 aluminum driver in .85 cf sealed box, with 200w rms amp (Rockford).
outer door skin
Roofing stuff isn't going to work. I haven't let it cure fully, but it smells so strongly of petroleum that I'd be nuts to put inside my doors.
I guess Dynamat make a spraycan for that specific purpose. (Coating inside of outer door skin). I think it's $20 per can, and one can cover 4 sf or something.
Roofing stuff isn't going to work. I haven't let it cure fully, but it smells so strongly of petroleum that I'd be nuts to put inside my doors.
I guess Dynamat make a spraycan for that specific purpose. (Coating inside of outer door skin). I think it's $20 per can, and one can cover 4 sf or something.
I'm almost done with the first door. Took me over two hours.
I put two strips of Peel N Seel (I'm gonna call it PnS) on the outer door skin, then covered most of the inner metal with it too.
I also used a trowel to apply silicone rubber caulk behind the area where the speaker will mount. I'm hoping to break up some of the sound reflections back there.
Funny thing: Acura put a small piece of PnS on the outer door skin when the car was manufactured! Was only a 4x8 inch piece, so I had to wonder, if it helps, why so little?
Here's a picture of my driver's door before starting:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/DerrickM/Door0001.jpg
Here's a picture of my passenger door nearly complete.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/DerrickM/Door0006.jpg
I put two strips of Peel N Seel (I'm gonna call it PnS) on the outer door skin, then covered most of the inner metal with it too.
I also used a trowel to apply silicone rubber caulk behind the area where the speaker will mount. I'm hoping to break up some of the sound reflections back there.
Funny thing: Acura put a small piece of PnS on the outer door skin when the car was manufactured! Was only a 4x8 inch piece, so I had to wonder, if it helps, why so little?
Here's a picture of my driver's door before starting:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/DerrickM/Door0001.jpg
Here's a picture of my passenger door nearly complete.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/DerrickM/Door0006.jpg
Okay, the DLS speakers are in! Sounds awesome! Still a little bright with all the glass, vinyl, and leather, but extremely crisp. Definitely got the midbass definition I was looking for.
As a side note, the car is much quieter now that I've sound-deadened the doors.
The rears (A/D/S 346cs) should be here in a day or two...
🙂
As a side note, the car is much quieter now that I've sound-deadened the doors.
The rears (A/D/S 346cs) should be here in a day or two...
🙂
you may think twice about those rears after you listen to your fronts alone for a while. I don't have any rear fill n my car, I just don't like it. It takes away from the front stage an messes up the image and sound stage.
so how is the midbass on those DLS drivers? I'm looking to un *** my stereo this summer to get soemthing that really has some low end impact. I"m looking for something that really has some balls behind it.WHat would you compare those to? How's the FEEL, not just the sound but the impact.
so how is the midbass on those DLS drivers? I'm looking to un *** my stereo this summer to get soemthing that really has some low end impact. I"m looking for something that really has some balls behind it.WHat would you compare those to? How's the FEEL, not just the sound but the impact.
Hi Cody,
I couldn't be happier the DLS UR6 speakers. The midbass warmth is, for me, the outstanding feature of these. I haven't *really* cranked 'em yet, as I want to be sure to give them a few days to break in first.
As for bass that you "feel", I have a sub, so most of the "feel" part comes from the trunk. I switched the sub cutoff from 99Hz to 78Hz, and the warmth is even more impressive. They seem to have sufficient "punch", but being in doors that just gives me rattles and squeaks--so if that happens too much I'll change it back to 99Hz.
The crossovers have a 3-position setting for the tweeters, none of them low enough for me, inside a car. With the windows up, I still need to EQ everything above 2K to at least -6dB. (I have a 1/2 octave DSP EQ with 9 memory settings).
Oh, one other thing I should mention: the tweeters. They're the ugliest tweets I've ever seen. BUT, they're like that for a reason--by having the whole dome stick out of the door panel, imaging is simply incredible! I can sit anywhere and get really good stereo, without resorting to the time-delay or balance controls. They don't swivel, and none is required. I covered them with black speaker cloth to hide the basketball-tread grill.
As for rear fill: I'm not really a fan of what car audiophiles refer to as rear fill. I actually <i>like</i> the 4-channel setup that has evolved in cars. I find that too much volume up front is harder on the ears. By having full-volume rears, I can listen to music louder without it being shrill. Maybe if I had mounted my tweeters lower I'd feel differently. In any case, if I decide I want imaging, I can fade forward; if I want fuller sound, or time-delay, etc., at least the speakers are there.
I will say this, however--you're right about how good the DLS fronts sound by themselves! If I didn't already have a 4-channel amp and a DSP unit specifically built for 4-channels, I probably wouldn't bother with the rears.
I haven't been checking this thread very often, since it hasn't generated a lot of replies. My email address is derrick at 141 dot com, if you want any other input on the DLS/Morel speakers. 🙂
Derrick
I couldn't be happier the DLS UR6 speakers. The midbass warmth is, for me, the outstanding feature of these. I haven't *really* cranked 'em yet, as I want to be sure to give them a few days to break in first.
As for bass that you "feel", I have a sub, so most of the "feel" part comes from the trunk. I switched the sub cutoff from 99Hz to 78Hz, and the warmth is even more impressive. They seem to have sufficient "punch", but being in doors that just gives me rattles and squeaks--so if that happens too much I'll change it back to 99Hz.
The crossovers have a 3-position setting for the tweeters, none of them low enough for me, inside a car. With the windows up, I still need to EQ everything above 2K to at least -6dB. (I have a 1/2 octave DSP EQ with 9 memory settings).
Oh, one other thing I should mention: the tweeters. They're the ugliest tweets I've ever seen. BUT, they're like that for a reason--by having the whole dome stick out of the door panel, imaging is simply incredible! I can sit anywhere and get really good stereo, without resorting to the time-delay or balance controls. They don't swivel, and none is required. I covered them with black speaker cloth to hide the basketball-tread grill.
As for rear fill: I'm not really a fan of what car audiophiles refer to as rear fill. I actually <i>like</i> the 4-channel setup that has evolved in cars. I find that too much volume up front is harder on the ears. By having full-volume rears, I can listen to music louder without it being shrill. Maybe if I had mounted my tweeters lower I'd feel differently. In any case, if I decide I want imaging, I can fade forward; if I want fuller sound, or time-delay, etc., at least the speakers are there.
I will say this, however--you're right about how good the DLS fronts sound by themselves! If I didn't already have a 4-channel amp and a DSP unit specifically built for 4-channels, I probably wouldn't bother with the rears.
I haven't been checking this thread very often, since it hasn't generated a lot of replies. My email address is derrick at 141 dot com, if you want any other input on the DLS/Morel speakers. 🙂
Derrick
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