Hi,
Just assembled the cabinet below to mount my Dynaudio 24w100 driver.
Dimensions are: 30" tall, 10.5" wide, 14.5" deep. Volume=52 lts
Need advice on the following:
1) Tweeter
2) Ported or not
3) Crossover diagram
I would prefer to keep it as a 2-way design
Just assembled the cabinet below to mount my Dynaudio 24w100 driver.
Dimensions are: 30" tall, 10.5" wide, 14.5" deep. Volume=52 lts
Need advice on the following:
1) Tweeter
2) Ported or not
3) Crossover diagram
I would prefer to keep it as a 2-way design
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I can recommend a tweeter: Dayton Audio DC28F-8, or the truncated version. You probably want the truncated version to get it as close to the woofer as possible. A while back I bought a pair to go with 8 inch woofers. Spilled an energy drink on one and then blew up the woofer with 70vdc. Actually I blew the woofer first. An unlucky build lol, never finished it. Anyway, I've read good things about them and I think they sound pretty good. They extend quite low for a tweeter - which you want if you want to stay 2 way.
I'm not sure how loud you're aiming for these speakers to go - if not too loud, the frequency range of the tweeter is from 1300hz up. If you crossed there you'd get good dispersion and integration with the woofer, but low power handling. 1800hz is probably good for medium to medium-high power handling (relative to the woofer). Medium for rock because of electrical guitar, medium high for all else.
Edit: that driver is probably good for ported, your cabinet is quite large though. You should model it
I'm not sure how loud you're aiming for these speakers to go - if not too loud, the frequency range of the tweeter is from 1300hz up. If you crossed there you'd get good dispersion and integration with the woofer, but low power handling. 1800hz is probably good for medium to medium-high power handling (relative to the woofer). Medium for rock because of electrical guitar, medium high for all else.
Edit: that driver is probably good for ported, your cabinet is quite large though. You should model it
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A waveguide tweeter would be the most suitable match to such a 2 way loudspeaker. 24W100, assuming T/S parameters remained as specified by manufacturer, belongs to a ported cabinet.
The cabinet looks nice. What you should do is glue in T nuts to attach the woofer to the baffle with. That way you can reattach the woofer an infinite amount of times instead of just 3-6. Helpful for crossover modification and whatever else might come up. Takes 10 minutes and $5, well worth it IMO. Tweeter isn't as critical - it's not used for access.
If you have extra MDF lying around from construction (or if you don't) you should cut it into 4 rectangles and use them to double the thickness of most of the front baffle.
You can also cut other 1.5 inch wide strips to strap one side of the cabinet to the other. With that depth of cabinet you should have one 5 inches back, one 10 inches back, and pairs above them, up 5 inches each time (starting 5 inches from the bottom). Behind the woofer you can just put one if the magnet is in the way. Or move them both back an inch or two.
Two would also go from front to back at the top (above the woofer) and two below. Your cabinet would then be almost completely inert. Subjectively it cleans up the upper bass and lower midrange a LOT - night and day difference. Too often it's the only thing that separates $1000 from $5000 speakers lol
About the horn loaded tweeter recommendation, if you're going for a horn, make sure you don't mind the sound of horns.
Questions:
What kind of music/how loud do you listen/how big is the room? Do you have a permanent location for them? If so, do they need to have a wall close behind?
If you have extra MDF lying around from construction (or if you don't) you should cut it into 4 rectangles and use them to double the thickness of most of the front baffle.
You can also cut other 1.5 inch wide strips to strap one side of the cabinet to the other. With that depth of cabinet you should have one 5 inches back, one 10 inches back, and pairs above them, up 5 inches each time (starting 5 inches from the bottom). Behind the woofer you can just put one if the magnet is in the way. Or move them both back an inch or two.
Two would also go from front to back at the top (above the woofer) and two below. Your cabinet would then be almost completely inert. Subjectively it cleans up the upper bass and lower midrange a LOT - night and day difference. Too often it's the only thing that separates $1000 from $5000 speakers lol
About the horn loaded tweeter recommendation, if you're going for a horn, make sure you don't mind the sound of horns.
Questions:
What kind of music/how loud do you listen/how big is the room? Do you have a permanent location for them? If so, do they need to have a wall close behind?
After looking at the woofer's datasheet again, 1.8khz 24db/oct (4th order) is the highest and most gradual slope you can cross it to the tweeter at if you want good horizontal dispersion. Your 10.5inch wide baffle makes 1.6khz/4th order as low as you should cross over. Between them is the optimal crossover: 1.7khz 4th order. The power response will be good and the system will sound good everywhere, not just the sweet spot.
I recommended you a tweeter that I think is on par with the woofer, sound quality wise. It's $30USD and one of the few tweeters in its price range able to be crossed over this low.
If you brace the cabinet well, the woofer could match to even better tweeters, so if you also post your upper tweeter budget, I can recommend another
I recommended you a tweeter that I think is on par with the woofer, sound quality wise. It's $30USD and one of the few tweeters in its price range able to be crossed over this low.
If you brace the cabinet well, the woofer could match to even better tweeters, so if you also post your upper tweeter budget, I can recommend another
Do you have a tweeter recommendation?
I will be adding internal braces and t-nuts.
Is there an off the shelve cross over or a schematic I can build one from?
I will be adding internal braces and t-nuts.
Is there an off the shelve cross over or a schematic I can build one from?
Very nice.
To determine exactly which tweeter would be best I still need to know which music you listen to most often, and how loud you listen. And your upper budget if it's less than $80 each. I wouldn't recommend anything more than $80 to not end up having one driver significantly superior to the other. If your answer about music is metal and loud/all the time, it might be better to go with a horn, but only if you agree with their sonics. If you don't, it might cost just a bit more for a compatible dome. But it's useless for me to recommend without knowing your answers first.
About the crossover, I'm assuming you're going passive. I'm not too familiar with tweaking them, but I've seen some off the shelf 1.6khz and 1.8khz models. The modifications to the one you'd go with would depend on the sensitivity (how much more efficient the tweeter is than the woofer) and the nominal impedance of your eventual tweeter (average resistance in it's working range).
Basically you'd flatten the impedance peak with a parallel resistor or a zobel/resonance circuit tuned to the tweeter's resonant frequency. Then you would pad down the tweeter with another resistor of the correct value to match woofer sensitivity, or use an L-pad (easily adjustable resistor which keeps the tweeter's apparent resistance to the crossover the same so only the level changes and not the crossover point). None of those values can be determined until the tweeter is. They can be calculated, but you will likely need to do a bit of tuning by ear to ensure its optimal integration with the woofer. I can try to help you get started, but as I said, analog filters aren't my thing. Maybe someone here could help you make your own crossover from scratch once you have your tweeters - that way instead of choosing from 1.6 or 1.8, you could make one exactly 1.7khz
I feel I should mention, even though your tweeter is costing a bit more because it has to go a bit lower than usual, the other option is making your speaker a 3 way, which is another driver to choose and buy, a doubling of crossover components, and a much harder job getting all 3 to integrate properly. I think you're making the right choice staying 2 way
To determine exactly which tweeter would be best I still need to know which music you listen to most often, and how loud you listen. And your upper budget if it's less than $80 each. I wouldn't recommend anything more than $80 to not end up having one driver significantly superior to the other. If your answer about music is metal and loud/all the time, it might be better to go with a horn, but only if you agree with their sonics. If you don't, it might cost just a bit more for a compatible dome. But it's useless for me to recommend without knowing your answers first.
About the crossover, I'm assuming you're going passive. I'm not too familiar with tweaking them, but I've seen some off the shelf 1.6khz and 1.8khz models. The modifications to the one you'd go with would depend on the sensitivity (how much more efficient the tweeter is than the woofer) and the nominal impedance of your eventual tweeter (average resistance in it's working range).
Basically you'd flatten the impedance peak with a parallel resistor or a zobel/resonance circuit tuned to the tweeter's resonant frequency. Then you would pad down the tweeter with another resistor of the correct value to match woofer sensitivity, or use an L-pad (easily adjustable resistor which keeps the tweeter's apparent resistance to the crossover the same so only the level changes and not the crossover point). None of those values can be determined until the tweeter is. They can be calculated, but you will likely need to do a bit of tuning by ear to ensure its optimal integration with the woofer. I can try to help you get started, but as I said, analog filters aren't my thing. Maybe someone here could help you make your own crossover from scratch once you have your tweeters - that way instead of choosing from 1.6 or 1.8, you could make one exactly 1.7khz
I feel I should mention, even though your tweeter is costing a bit more because it has to go a bit lower than usual, the other option is making your speaker a 3 way, which is another driver to choose and buy, a doubling of crossover components, and a much harder job getting all 3 to integrate properly. I think you're making the right choice staying 2 way
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Generally, the type of music I listen to are popular from the 1960s including Doors, Beatles, Rolling Stones, CCR, etc. I like it loud, too. Not much classical however good voice reproduction is important.
Last night, I played the speaker for the first time. I started with my recently constructed sealed 50L enclosure with no crossover to the Dynaudio 24W100 woofer. No surprise, upper mid-range and high frequencies not there. The woofer is rated to 3000hz, so while it was missing a large upper range, it wasn’t horrible like a subwoofer. I then connected a pair of Radio Shack LX5 speakers (bi-amp) that I had laying around that have a cheap 5” woofer/midrange and the relatively respected Linaeum ribbon style tweeter. That brought in some of the missing upper midrange and high frequencies but it’s not the solution. There was no crossover as both set were directly wired to my Sonographe SA400 power amp rated at 200w/channel. So I think there was an obvious peak in the upper area of the woofer frequencies that I’m guessing a port & proper crossover would help. Also, I haven’t drilled the hole for port yet to the cabinets. Per my research, the port needs to be about 3” x 7”. I’m now thinking of adding a midrange as well as tweeter with well designed crossover. I haven’t decided on those yet, but willing to spend ~$50 on each driver. In other words, since I’m at this point, being too cheap wouldn’t be the right thing to do.
I also have 3 other speakers for comparison. My best is the AR-9 I restored and are truly wonderful and JBL 4312 I just bought for fun from Salvation Army a couple months ago. It needed cabinet repair and crossover restored but all the drivers were good. I also have a pair of Magneplanar MG10s I bought 25 years ago I’m using for my home theater. And a couple of quality subs.
I’ve started to learn about crossovers as before I was pretty much clueless, so I enjoy expanding my knowledge with help on this forum. Not sure which type of crossover is best. But it appears I have to first select the midrange and tweeters. Any advice is appreciated.
Last night, I played the speaker for the first time. I started with my recently constructed sealed 50L enclosure with no crossover to the Dynaudio 24W100 woofer. No surprise, upper mid-range and high frequencies not there. The woofer is rated to 3000hz, so while it was missing a large upper range, it wasn’t horrible like a subwoofer. I then connected a pair of Radio Shack LX5 speakers (bi-amp) that I had laying around that have a cheap 5” woofer/midrange and the relatively respected Linaeum ribbon style tweeter. That brought in some of the missing upper midrange and high frequencies but it’s not the solution. There was no crossover as both set were directly wired to my Sonographe SA400 power amp rated at 200w/channel. So I think there was an obvious peak in the upper area of the woofer frequencies that I’m guessing a port & proper crossover would help. Also, I haven’t drilled the hole for port yet to the cabinets. Per my research, the port needs to be about 3” x 7”. I’m now thinking of adding a midrange as well as tweeter with well designed crossover. I haven’t decided on those yet, but willing to spend ~$50 on each driver. In other words, since I’m at this point, being too cheap wouldn’t be the right thing to do.
I also have 3 other speakers for comparison. My best is the AR-9 I restored and are truly wonderful and JBL 4312 I just bought for fun from Salvation Army a couple months ago. It needed cabinet repair and crossover restored but all the drivers were good. I also have a pair of Magneplanar MG10s I bought 25 years ago I’m using for my home theater. And a couple of quality subs.
I’ve started to learn about crossovers as before I was pretty much clueless, so I enjoy expanding my knowledge with help on this forum. Not sure which type of crossover is best. But it appears I have to first select the midrange and tweeters. Any advice is appreciated.
Making a 3 way is much, much more difficult, especially for a first project. In your use case, a $100 tweeter would allow for enough power handling and low end extension to pair to your woofer. It'd have a more detailed top end too. The crossover would cost half for a 2 way because the midrange needs band pass, essentially two crossovers - one above and one below
It would cost the same (less actually) and be easier. A lot easier, but not easy - it's never easy,
for a 2 way.
Parts express has Wavecor TW030WA14 for $95 ea.
THD remains below 1% for excursions up to 0.6mm peak to peak, so if you cross it at 1.7khz 4th order, you could get 105db from them, plus another 6db for transients. They'd do more than enough to match your woofers.
Are you absolutely sure you want to do it as a 3 way?
It would cost the same (less actually) and be easier. A lot easier, but not easy - it's never easy,
for a 2 way.
Parts express has Wavecor TW030WA14 for $95 ea.
THD remains below 1% for excursions up to 0.6mm peak to peak, so if you cross it at 1.7khz 4th order, you could get 105db from them, plus another 6db for transients. They'd do more than enough to match your woofers.
Are you absolutely sure you want to do it as a 3 way?
I am on the Parts-Express website now looking at mid-ranges and I think I'll take your advice and do it as a 2-way.
A few years ago, I rebuilt 4 New Large Advents and they do very well in a 2-way configuration. I even experimented with the Stacked Advents but when I got the AR-9, I learned the Advents were not as good. The AR-9 are 4-ways with twin side firing 12" woofers rated down to 18Hz! No sub needed!
A few years ago, I rebuilt 4 New Large Advents and they do very well in a 2-way configuration. I even experimented with the Stacked Advents but when I got the AR-9, I learned the Advents were not as good. The AR-9 are 4-ways with twin side firing 12" woofers rated down to 18Hz! No sub needed!
The SB Acoustics SB26ADC is a good cheaper alternative for that Wavecor tweeter i think. Can be used to about 1.5kHz with steep filters shows measurements of Troels and others and is fit for the woofer on sensivity (so passive crossover is possible). It also got a very good dispertion and it only cost +/- 40€ down here in Europe. Madisound sells them for 54.4$ in the USA (no parts express).
Edit: the measurements from Troels: SBAcoustics-tweeters
Edit: the measurements from Troels: SBAcoustics-tweeters
I sold the Advents a few years ago.
I currently have the AR-9, JBL 4312, Magneplanar MG 10, Radio Shack LX 5 (2 pairs), Sunfire Subwoofer, Advent Prodigy (tiny) and M&K MX70 sub.
I also rebuilt a pair of old Magneplanar speakers that were tall and wide models. Those were a waste of time.
I currently have the AR-9, JBL 4312, Magneplanar MG 10, Radio Shack LX 5 (2 pairs), Sunfire Subwoofer, Advent Prodigy (tiny) and M&K MX70 sub.
I also rebuilt a pair of old Magneplanar speakers that were tall and wide models. Those were a waste of time.
Apparently the 29 is better for lower crossover points, someone made some studio monitors with a 1.2khz crossover. The link you have here for the 26 says it's difficult to make a crossover for
I don't know why you implied an active crossover would be needed for the tweeter I suggested - it's more efficient than the woofer, so passive crossover compatible
I ordered the Wavecor TW030WA14 tweeter and a 2-way crossover point at 2,000Hz instead of the 1,600Hz -1,800Hz you mentioned earlier. That seemed the logical value for the tweeter after I checked the specs. Its the Dayton Audio XO2W-2K 2-Way Speaker Crossover 2,000 Hz. Not expensive, so I need to build one later, I will do that.
The slope is a bit shallower and the point a bit higher than absolutely ideal for your drivers, but if you end up happy with the off axis response, you won't need to build another one. If you keep the crossover, the only thing I'd do to it is upgrade the woofer's inductor to a low resistance air core - it would reduce midrange distortion and tighten the bass.
The drivers sensitivities are pretty close to matched, so to test things out just wire the crossover to the drivers and listen. You might need to trim the tweeter a bit - if it sounds bright we'll discuss resistors for it. You need to break in the tweeter for a good 80 hours for it to settle to its final sensitivity, so this is done later
You might need a notch filter for the tweeter because the crossover you bought is only 12db/oct. But the tweeter's impedance peak is mild and it's resonance is way down at 700hz, so maybe not.
I'm not completely sure how the tweeter's ~14 ohm impedance at resonance will affect its amplitude through your crossover without a notch, but I suspect it would cause a 3-4db increase at it because its nominal impedance is 7 ohms. Since your crossover would already be 19db down by the 700hz resonance, adding 3db only takes you to -16db, which is fine. The tonal balance wouldn't be affected and the tweeter would be safe.
Maybe someone could say for sure how his tweeter would behave without a notch.
The drivers sensitivities are pretty close to matched, so to test things out just wire the crossover to the drivers and listen. You might need to trim the tweeter a bit - if it sounds bright we'll discuss resistors for it. You need to break in the tweeter for a good 80 hours for it to settle to its final sensitivity, so this is done later
You might need a notch filter for the tweeter because the crossover you bought is only 12db/oct. But the tweeter's impedance peak is mild and it's resonance is way down at 700hz, so maybe not.
I'm not completely sure how the tweeter's ~14 ohm impedance at resonance will affect its amplitude through your crossover without a notch, but I suspect it would cause a 3-4db increase at it because its nominal impedance is 7 ohms. Since your crossover would already be 19db down by the 700hz resonance, adding 3db only takes you to -16db, which is fine. The tonal balance wouldn't be affected and the tweeter would be safe.
Maybe someone could say for sure how his tweeter would behave without a notch.
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I've been doing some thinking - because the tweeter's frequency response is flat to 800hz, using a 2nd order crossover is going to cause it to distort at signal levels ~6db lower than if you used a 1.7khz 4th order. Also the notch filter is probably required with it unless you're comfortable subtracting another 3-4db from -6.
Some good news is that the tweeter will sound audibly offensive well before it's damaged. So, if during your listening tests the tweeter distorts at the levels you like to listen, you'll be able to just make the steeper crossover for it with no permanent repercussions.
I should have emphasized more the importance of a steeper sloped crossover before. Like you said though, it didn't cost much, so if you end up having to make the 1.7khz 4th order, it's not a huge deal. The capacitors look like they're high enough quality - you'd be able to recycle those if you couldn't return it.
Maybe it will work though. If it sounds good and just barely distorts at your highest desired levels, the notch filter might make everything work together nicely. We won't know til you hook things up and try!
What are the estimated delivery dates for your parts?
Some good news is that the tweeter will sound audibly offensive well before it's damaged. So, if during your listening tests the tweeter distorts at the levels you like to listen, you'll be able to just make the steeper crossover for it with no permanent repercussions.
I should have emphasized more the importance of a steeper sloped crossover before. Like you said though, it didn't cost much, so if you end up having to make the 1.7khz 4th order, it's not a huge deal. The capacitors look like they're high enough quality - you'd be able to recycle those if you couldn't return it.
Maybe it will work though. If it sounds good and just barely distorts at your highest desired levels, the notch filter might make everything work together nicely. We won't know til you hook things up and try!
What are the estimated delivery dates for your parts?
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