Need advice on buying new "old" cd player
Ok, my eyes are starting to bleed from all the reading so I will just pose the question. What represents a good value in a used(late 80's to present) CD player? I see some of the Philips and Marantz units are very good performers (great transport & DAC)that also respond well to some tweeking but I have a weekness for the industrial design of Proton, NAD, a/d/s and Carver . Unfortunately I have not been able to find much info on these makes, though I have read some of the Protons use respectable DAC's. There also seems to be a following for the older Yamaha's like the CDX 1100.... just looking for some input as most of my experience is with loudspeakers. I have considered running an outboard DAC but would be happy with a decent stand alone setup, thanks in advance.
Ok, my eyes are starting to bleed from all the reading so I will just pose the question. What represents a good value in a used(late 80's to present) CD player? I see some of the Philips and Marantz units are very good performers (great transport & DAC)that also respond well to some tweeking but I have a weekness for the industrial design of Proton, NAD, a/d/s and Carver . Unfortunately I have not been able to find much info on these makes, though I have read some of the Protons use respectable DAC's. There also seems to be a following for the older Yamaha's like the CDX 1100.... just looking for some input as most of my experience is with loudspeakers. I have considered running an outboard DAC but would be happy with a decent stand alone setup, thanks in advance.
I found the denon 1520 very reliable units.
I found very little difference between players - compared the denon, a mission dad 7000, a philips dvd 963, a micromega stage 2, a pioneer 59 avi and my favourite - the diy unit based on a cd rom drive with a controller by diy club.
I found very little difference between players - compared the denon, a mission dad 7000, a philips dvd 963, a micromega stage 2, a pioneer 59 avi and my favourite - the diy unit based on a cd rom drive with a controller by diy club.
Wow, this guy is realy.....eh, enthusiastic about his findings, very interesting read, thanks for the excellent link. Looks like I may go for the AMC CD8b as my daily driver, cool minimalist looks and reasonable quality but I'm still looking for a decent unassuming (ehhem cheap) foundation for tweaking, experimanting.
Hi S.Spielbergo,
MY favorite is Rotel. Some of the experienced guys (I am not one of these guys, experienced that is) here are very impressed with Rotel after they open them up for the first time for build quality.
Look at their late 80s to mid to late 90s flagship line, the RCD 865BX and RCD 965BX and if you can find one, the RCD 965BX "Limited Edition," the nicest sounding of them all. These are wonderful performers to start with and get much better with intermediate mods. Plus they are reasonable used. I just got a Limited Edition from eBay for $90. the only thing wrong with it was a plastic button ($15.00 fix). Other than that, perfect. (This was a steal)
Then the model just below at that time was the RCD 855 and then the RCD 955. These use the TDA1541 DAC as in that article. These are even more reasonable used (these were $100 less then the 865/965s new). There are about a million posts on how to work with and/or improve the TDA1541s so if you have decided that's what you want to work with, this is a great place to start. There are several on eBay now for under $80.
Comparing the two stock (no mods), I felt the 865/965 was significantly better sounding than the 855/955s. BTW the difference between the 8xx line and the 9xx line was minimal and maybe nothing more than cosmetics (confirmed from Rotel). I don't know which has more potential without going crazy the 865/965 or the 855/955, but I prefer the 965.
The best part is Rotel still supports all four of these models and has 99% of the parts available and will do repairs on these at a reasonable rate and are located just outside Boston. They have been nothing short of woderful with me!
I hope this helps! Good luck and let us know what you decide to do!
Regards//Keith
MY favorite is Rotel. Some of the experienced guys (I am not one of these guys, experienced that is) here are very impressed with Rotel after they open them up for the first time for build quality.
Look at their late 80s to mid to late 90s flagship line, the RCD 865BX and RCD 965BX and if you can find one, the RCD 965BX "Limited Edition," the nicest sounding of them all. These are wonderful performers to start with and get much better with intermediate mods. Plus they are reasonable used. I just got a Limited Edition from eBay for $90. the only thing wrong with it was a plastic button ($15.00 fix). Other than that, perfect. (This was a steal)
Then the model just below at that time was the RCD 855 and then the RCD 955. These use the TDA1541 DAC as in that article. These are even more reasonable used (these were $100 less then the 865/965s new). There are about a million posts on how to work with and/or improve the TDA1541s so if you have decided that's what you want to work with, this is a great place to start. There are several on eBay now for under $80.
Comparing the two stock (no mods), I felt the 865/965 was significantly better sounding than the 855/955s. BTW the difference between the 8xx line and the 9xx line was minimal and maybe nothing more than cosmetics (confirmed from Rotel). I don't know which has more potential without going crazy the 865/965 or the 855/955, but I prefer the 965.
The best part is Rotel still supports all four of these models and has 99% of the parts available and will do repairs on these at a reasonable rate and are located just outside Boston. They have been nothing short of woderful with me!
I hope this helps! Good luck and let us know what you decide to do!
Regards//Keith
Well the AMC Cd8b, arrived in great condition (excellent really considering its been around for 7 years). No...it's not the end all be all of cd players but a considerable improvement over the poor Denon DVD 2200, I have been using. LOTS of details have been exposed like congos, bongos, synths and the like. The Sony transport is lightning fast as well,not bad at all for $80. I'm still on the lookout for a vintage unit, the Rotels are quite reasonable at times but I would hate to cut my teeth on something too decent, been looking into some Philips manufactured Magnavox's, I recently saw a Philips CD 880(?) go for ~$300 on Ebay, yikes!!
Hey S.Spielbergo,
I saw a Rotel RCD 965BX go for $200 on eBay today. That's high. Wait until there are several on at the same time. They have a tendency for going for less when people have a 2nd and 3rd chance to pick one up. The last one or the only one usually gets the higher bids!
If you pick one up for let's say $100, who cares if it is too good to cut your teeth on. Worst case, you throw it away and buy another. At least you have something substantial and reasonable to start with (and it sounds great in stock condition too) and only gets better with each mod. I'd bet for $300 you can significantly mod it to compete with some $1500 to $2000 players and maybe even more for a total of $400.
Please reconsider the Magnavox, it is low, low end consumer stuff and you can't improve things with a poor design. Better off with a solid design with medium components, then carefully choose the higher quality components that give great bang for the buck and significant sonic differences.
That's just my opinion and exactly what I would do! Actually, it's exactly what I AM doing. I have two RCD 965BXs to mod and one is the LE. I also have a Philips CD950 and maybe I will mod it someday but the Rotels are in another class altogether (to me a better class)!!
Give it some consideration!
Regards//Keith
I saw a Rotel RCD 965BX go for $200 on eBay today. That's high. Wait until there are several on at the same time. They have a tendency for going for less when people have a 2nd and 3rd chance to pick one up. The last one or the only one usually gets the higher bids!
If you pick one up for let's say $100, who cares if it is too good to cut your teeth on. Worst case, you throw it away and buy another. At least you have something substantial and reasonable to start with (and it sounds great in stock condition too) and only gets better with each mod. I'd bet for $300 you can significantly mod it to compete with some $1500 to $2000 players and maybe even more for a total of $400.
Please reconsider the Magnavox, it is low, low end consumer stuff and you can't improve things with a poor design. Better off with a solid design with medium components, then carefully choose the higher quality components that give great bang for the buck and significant sonic differences.
That's just my opinion and exactly what I would do! Actually, it's exactly what I AM doing. I have two RCD 965BXs to mod and one is the LE. I also have a Philips CD950 and maybe I will mod it someday but the Rotels are in another class altogether (to me a better class)!!
Give it some consideration!
Regards//Keith
Hi Keith
Have you had a look inside that RCD 965BX "Limited Edition" yet?
Any idea how it differs from the standard 965BX?
I have also heard of a RCD 965BX "Limited Edition - Discrete". I wonder if it is the same thing.
Have you had a look inside that RCD 965BX "Limited Edition" yet?
Any idea how it differs from the standard 965BX?
I have also heard of a RCD 965BX "Limited Edition - Discrete". I wonder if it is the same thing.
Hi Fin
I always think of you and some of the other Rotel proponents that I have come across on these threads when researching on this unit. You are always doing your own investigation AND you have experience and that is a great combination.
The difference between the RCD 965BX and the BX Limited Edition is 4 PS capacitors with the same values. They look like OEM for Rotel with no markings from the manufacturer (black with gold markings). Probably Blackgates NX Caps. Rotel has none, they are discontinued. Yes you can hear a difference and it is somewhat noticeable. This gives endorsement to those who believe that same value but different quality components affect the sound. Also, the more we clean up those Dirty Little Power Supplies, the better it sounds.
Rotel USA claims no knowledge of a "Discrete" model and said it would have a schematic if there was one. They also admit for the European market, they have at times put a little badge like "Audiophile Edition" and "Discrete" to make the Europeans feel they are getting something better than the rest of the world. I guess this works. But don't let that be the final word, I am going to email Rotel UK and get to the bottom of this.
I am about to assemble the Class A biasing JFET Cascodes and install them onto the new OPA627APs and give it a listen over the next week or so. Maybe you have some recommendations on what other Caps I should replace while the PCB is out. The muting transistors are gone and that was also very worthwhile.
Regards//Keith
I always think of you and some of the other Rotel proponents that I have come across on these threads when researching on this unit. You are always doing your own investigation AND you have experience and that is a great combination.
The difference between the RCD 965BX and the BX Limited Edition is 4 PS capacitors with the same values. They look like OEM for Rotel with no markings from the manufacturer (black with gold markings). Probably Blackgates NX Caps. Rotel has none, they are discontinued. Yes you can hear a difference and it is somewhat noticeable. This gives endorsement to those who believe that same value but different quality components affect the sound. Also, the more we clean up those Dirty Little Power Supplies, the better it sounds.
Rotel USA claims no knowledge of a "Discrete" model and said it would have a schematic if there was one. They also admit for the European market, they have at times put a little badge like "Audiophile Edition" and "Discrete" to make the Europeans feel they are getting something better than the rest of the world. I guess this works. But don't let that be the final word, I am going to email Rotel UK and get to the bottom of this.
I am about to assemble the Class A biasing JFET Cascodes and install them onto the new OPA627APs and give it a listen over the next week or so. Maybe you have some recommendations on what other Caps I should replace while the PCB is out. The muting transistors are gone and that was also very worthwhile.
Regards//Keith
Thanks Keith
That all makes sense and I can't imagine that they made a completely new pcb with something like a "Discrete" I/V or output stage.
That all makes sense and I can't imagine that they made a completely new pcb with something like a "Discrete" I/V or output stage.
I've got an RCD 965BX that I was thinking of clocking and I remember coming across this:
"The RCD-965BX Discrete was the top of the range 965 model - it was a 965BX LE with an extra UK designed discrete transistor output stage fitted to improve the already high standard of replay this player provided."
The quote is taken from this website:
http://www.net-audio.co.uk/965discrete.html
Sounds as though the Discrete may have been a UK-only model.
The RCD 965BX was a popular award winner in the UK and sold in huge quantities, therefore it is easily available at low prices on UK auction sites - though not right now, in the summer lull. They usually go for around £40 to £50 for the basic model and even mint ones in their original boxes seldom go for much more than £50. The LE model, however, only comes up two or three times a year and I have never seen a Discrete.
The only problem with buying an RCD 965BX and exporting it is, it weighs a tonne! (Specifically, 6kg.) Presumably one of the reasons why it's such a good machine.
Here is the owner's manual if anyone's interested:
http://europe.rotel.com/support/pdf...34E3D60DE1D=0&bcsi_scan_filename=rcd965bx.pdf
"The RCD-965BX Discrete was the top of the range 965 model - it was a 965BX LE with an extra UK designed discrete transistor output stage fitted to improve the already high standard of replay this player provided."
The quote is taken from this website:
http://www.net-audio.co.uk/965discrete.html
Sounds as though the Discrete may have been a UK-only model.
The RCD 965BX was a popular award winner in the UK and sold in huge quantities, therefore it is easily available at low prices on UK auction sites - though not right now, in the summer lull. They usually go for around £40 to £50 for the basic model and even mint ones in their original boxes seldom go for much more than £50. The LE model, however, only comes up two or three times a year and I have never seen a Discrete.
The only problem with buying an RCD 965BX and exporting it is, it weighs a tonne! (Specifically, 6kg.) Presumably one of the reasons why it's such a good machine.
Here is the owner's manual if anyone's interested:
http://europe.rotel.com/support/pdf...34E3D60DE1D=0&bcsi_scan_filename=rcd965bx.pdf
rwtomkins said:
Thanks for this information. Maybe we can build something similar for our standard models.
Hey Fin,
I didn't know that you had a RCD 965BX. In all the threads you posted, you only asked questions and made suggestions. Never did you indicate that you actually had one.
Now I get to ask you, how do you like it and have you done any mods (if so, what did you do)?
Maybe the Rotel people in the UK added a special circuit on a daughter card that bypassed an inferior section on the main PCB on the "Discrete" unit. This way they wouldn't have to revamp the whole main PCB and only manufacture the "Discrete" version as market demands. The AH! Njoe Tjoeb has an upsampler upgrade like this but it is a user upgrade that requires no permanent attachment (solder, removing components off the main PCB, etc.).
OK, now it is time to get to the bottom of this and ask Rotel UK if they have some info on this player!
Regards//Keith
I didn't know that you had a RCD 965BX. In all the threads you posted, you only asked questions and made suggestions. Never did you indicate that you actually had one.
Now I get to ask you, how do you like it and have you done any mods (if so, what did you do)?
Maybe the Rotel people in the UK added a special circuit on a daughter card that bypassed an inferior section on the main PCB on the "Discrete" unit. This way they wouldn't have to revamp the whole main PCB and only manufacture the "Discrete" version as market demands. The AH! Njoe Tjoeb has an upsampler upgrade like this but it is a user upgrade that requires no permanent attachment (solder, removing components off the main PCB, etc.).
OK, now it is time to get to the bottom of this and ask Rotel UK if they have some info on this player!
Regards//Keith
Hi S.Spielbergo
if you are looking for excelent vintage CD player, do not forget studio player Technics SL-P1200. Its built like fortress and sounds excelent. You can get them often cheap on ebay. I got two, one for only $30. Beats any novadays cd player up to $400.
ed
if you are looking for excelent vintage CD player, do not forget studio player Technics SL-P1200. Its built like fortress and sounds excelent. You can get them often cheap on ebay. I got two, one for only $30. Beats any novadays cd player up to $400.
ed
The discrete board was designed by/for/on behalf of the Rotel distributor in the UK and retrofitted there, not at the factory. It was an additional board that replaces the op amps with a discrete circuit. I t wa s available here in SA as well as the market here largely guided by the UK press demanded it.
It was good. My techie friend also once fitted one to a 955, that was wicked!
I understand why many preferred the 965 for its seemingly wider soundstage and "smoother" sound. (Smoother meaning less ragged and more even, not soft or lush). The 955 on the other hand sounded funkier and a little more bumpy but overall was the more musical player to me. Its tone was just more natural and it had more boogy and punch as well as more natural vocals imo. Soundstage was deeper I felt.
It was funny how in a shop demo when demmoing the two players AB to folks who did not know which was which or ever read a review, they always chose the 955. The fact that it was cheaper delighted them.
We were "treated" to dealer trainging by the Rotel distributors more thern once to show us the superiority of the 965 but it never worked on us which they did not like.
Joan Baez Diamonds and Dust made the differences clear as anything and is still a great track for comparisons.
It was good. My techie friend also once fitted one to a 955, that was wicked!
I understand why many preferred the 965 for its seemingly wider soundstage and "smoother" sound. (Smoother meaning less ragged and more even, not soft or lush). The 955 on the other hand sounded funkier and a little more bumpy but overall was the more musical player to me. Its tone was just more natural and it had more boogy and punch as well as more natural vocals imo. Soundstage was deeper I felt.
It was funny how in a shop demo when demmoing the two players AB to folks who did not know which was which or ever read a review, they always chose the 955. The fact that it was cheaper delighted them.
We were "treated" to dealer trainging by the Rotel distributors more thern once to show us the superiority of the 965 but it never worked on us which they did not like.
Joan Baez Diamonds and Dust made the differences clear as anything and is still a great track for comparisons.
KP11520 said:
Hi Keith
Actually - I have two RCD 865BX machines....one that works perfectly and one that doesn't. Apart from a quick test when they arrived - I haven't had time to listen to any of them properly....but I hope to soon. I've also got an RCD 955AX (and some others).
KP11520 [/i][B] Maybe the Rotel people in the UK added a special circuit on a daughter card that bypassed an inferior section on the main PCB on the "Discrete" unit. This way they wouldn't have to revamp the whole main PCB and only manufacture the "Discrete" version as market demands. [/B][/QUOTE] Indeed - it looks like an add in PCB in the photo on the Net Audio site. [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by tubenut said:
And that confirms the presence of the extra board.
Maybe I will be able to add my comments to this comparisson in the near future....time permitting.
Hi Guillaume,
My experience was different at the dealer. We sat for several hours for several days to decide on the 955 or 965 for my cousin to complete his new stereo purchase. Tuner/preamp, amp, cassette deck, speakers and the last decision was which CD Player. We played many CDs but several were the ones that were listened to over and over. Soul Cages by Sting and Love deluxe by Sade and several others (that was 15 years ago). We all felt the 965 was warmer and more detailed and yes that soundstage was wonderful. It only got better with age (hours).
Now, that doesn't matter much because one (based on each of our opinions) isn't better by a large margin over the other and either is a wonderful unit to just have or to mod! I think with all that is written about the TDA1541, the 955 might have a better outcome for mods. Either way, great investment.
This what I really want to know and also to thank you for clearing up the "Discrete" issue is..... Where can I get my hands on a Discrete player or schematics with that special circuit and how it ties into the main PCB? Now we're talking! That would be an interesting mod to either the 955 or 965 (you already know how that sounds on the 955).
Thanks!
And BTW S.Spielbergo, many experienced guys like these and you can't beat the price and performance!
Regards//Keith
My experience was different at the dealer. We sat for several hours for several days to decide on the 955 or 965 for my cousin to complete his new stereo purchase. Tuner/preamp, amp, cassette deck, speakers and the last decision was which CD Player. We played many CDs but several were the ones that were listened to over and over. Soul Cages by Sting and Love deluxe by Sade and several others (that was 15 years ago). We all felt the 965 was warmer and more detailed and yes that soundstage was wonderful. It only got better with age (hours).
Now, that doesn't matter much because one (based on each of our opinions) isn't better by a large margin over the other and either is a wonderful unit to just have or to mod! I think with all that is written about the TDA1541, the 955 might have a better outcome for mods. Either way, great investment.
This what I really want to know and also to thank you for clearing up the "Discrete" issue is..... Where can I get my hands on a Discrete player or schematics with that special circuit and how it ties into the main PCB? Now we're talking! That would be an interesting mod to either the 955 or 965 (you already know how that sounds on the 955).
Thanks!
And BTW S.Spielbergo, many experienced guys like these and you can't beat the price and performance!
Regards//Keith
Thanks Fin,
Sounds like fun, I hope you find the time! Then even more to do some mods! When you are ready I can share with you what I have learned about adding the JFET Cascode to the op amps (I used OPA627APs) for class A Biasing! It is easy and you probably don't need any help from me but just in case, it would be no problem!
Regards//Keith
Sounds like fun, I hope you find the time! Then even more to do some mods! When you are ready I can share with you what I have learned about adding the JFET Cascode to the op amps (I used OPA627APs) for class A Biasing! It is easy and you probably don't need any help from me but just in case, it would be no problem!
Regards//Keith
Thanks Keith
I will certainly take you up on the offer of sharing your experience with what you have done so far.
Also - I agree with you on the recommendation of these CD players to S.Spielbergo. The 855/955 and 865/965 are very nicely made and look like they have lots of potential for modding.
I will certainly take you up on the offer of sharing your experience with what you have done so far.
Also - I agree with you on the recommendation of these CD players to S.Spielbergo. The 855/955 and 865/965 are very nicely made and look like they have lots of potential for modding.
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