For music the XLS is probably better than the Shiva. Shiva is designed more for HT use in larger vented boxes to get more extension and output. Linkwitz considers XLS superior to the Shiva and I'm inclined to agree, although this depends on the application of course.
In your case you need to consider what is good value from available suppliers. You can also enquire about getting drivers shipped.
In your case you need to consider what is good value from available suppliers. You can also enquire about getting drivers shipped.
Well the xls is cheaper for me than the shiva :s but it's a nightmare to chose the best compromised with the xls 
. A xls sealed isn't efficient and doesn't go deep at all 🙁 so it needs a port ... on the data sheets they recommend a vented cabinet of 40L , 90mm diameter port 510 mm long (double flared) a tuning frequency of 30hz and a high pass filter Q:0.7 20hz .
. A xls sealed isn't efficient and doesn't go deep at all 🙁 so it needs a port ... on the data sheets they recommend a vented cabinet of 40L , 90mm diameter port 510 mm long (double flared) a tuning frequency of 30hz and a high pass filter Q:0.7 20hz .Ok i've tried this:
-red it's the shiva sealed 88.5L 1watt
-blue it's the JBL GT4-12 sealed 88.5L 1 watt
-yellow it's the JBL GT4-12 vented 120L 23hz tuned 1watt
-violet it's the xls sealed 88.5L 1 watt (when i change the volume to 30L it barely moves anything....)
All have had a lowpass at 80hz butterworth
And what's interesting is how close the jbl is compared with the shiva . the jbl is slightly less efficient than the shiva but for 1db it's not an awfull lot ... the JBL talked here I can get one easily for £80 .
Is the curve correct and the main idea ? or have I gotten something wrong to say that the JBL and the shiva are the same in a 88.5L box?
many thanks 😉
-red it's the shiva sealed 88.5L 1watt
-blue it's the JBL GT4-12 sealed 88.5L 1 watt
-yellow it's the JBL GT4-12 vented 120L 23hz tuned 1watt
-violet it's the xls sealed 88.5L 1 watt (when i change the volume to 30L it barely moves anything....)
All have had a lowpass at 80hz butterworth
And what's interesting is how close the jbl is compared with the shiva . the jbl is slightly less efficient than the shiva but for 1db it's not an awfull lot ... the JBL talked here I can get one easily for £80 .
Is the curve correct and the main idea ? or have I gotten something wrong to say that the JBL and the shiva are the same in a 88.5L box?
many thanks 😉
Attachments
You are on the right track, but what you need to check now is the max SPL available from the Shiva and JBL. At 1 watt you are only testing the efficiency really.
The max SPL will be dictated by the excursion limit and voicecoil thermal power handling.
The max SPL will be dictated by the excursion limit and voicecoil thermal power handling.
Well the shiva is i think perhaps better because it has 16mm xmax and 375w per coil 650w total and the JBL has a 12mm xmax and 250w (and on the website it's marqued 1000w max??) but i'll only put a 100 or 150 wrms sub amplifier with it ... so it souldn't make a huge diference , will it? thanks
I've just tried couple different situation whith these two driver on simulation and both relly follows remarquably well the same line they separate sometimes but never over 1.5db witch I think is very good . But do you think it will be alright to use a car subwoofer for a diy subwoofer for hi fidelity equipement ? my two columns I've paid 650£ the pair 🙁 will it match the quality ? (i'll probably spent another 120£ for the electronics....)
thanks
thanks
Don't worry about how closely the curves match. If you are doing a sealed sub then you can eq to get the curve you want.
This is how I suggest you approach it.
1. start with drivers that are good value in your location - do your homework, ask for quotes for shipping if required, and look into drivers that are well known to be good value and good bang for buck. I'd stay away from car audio subs for this.
Think Peerless, Adire, Stryke/AE speakers, Dayton, Blueprint
2. model them with the same filters in WinISD pro - include the same crossover for them all, rumble filter and either linkwitz transform or parametric eq >>>> get the response curve you want
3. you might include a 6db parametric boost at 20Hz with a Q of 1 to simulate room gain to make sure it doesn't have a hump in response or that your linkwitz transform has too much eq. When you are happy with the response WITH your guess at room gain, switch off the boost as it will mess up the excursion
4. change the signal level to a power that won't cause overexcursion above 20 Hz - check the excursion graph
5. View the SPL chart - now you are looking at the maximum SPL you can get for a given power input with that driver. At this point you don't worry about comparing drivers on the basis of nominal efficiency or xmax, but on the basis of expected results.
Note: the XLS tends to have a better vented response when room gain is taken into account as room gain counteracts the early rolloff.
When you have done all this you can then compare things properly and make a good decision, taking account of the cost of the driver and the amp needed to drive it as well as the output and extension you will get as a result.
In USA the Shiva is cheaper than the XLS but in Australia it's the other way around. Keep in mind that comments about bang for buck with different drivers are often biased towards what is good value in USA, but it can be very different in other countries.
This is how I suggest you approach it.
1. start with drivers that are good value in your location - do your homework, ask for quotes for shipping if required, and look into drivers that are well known to be good value and good bang for buck. I'd stay away from car audio subs for this.
Think Peerless, Adire, Stryke/AE speakers, Dayton, Blueprint
2. model them with the same filters in WinISD pro - include the same crossover for them all, rumble filter and either linkwitz transform or parametric eq >>>> get the response curve you want
3. you might include a 6db parametric boost at 20Hz with a Q of 1 to simulate room gain to make sure it doesn't have a hump in response or that your linkwitz transform has too much eq. When you are happy with the response WITH your guess at room gain, switch off the boost as it will mess up the excursion
4. change the signal level to a power that won't cause overexcursion above 20 Hz - check the excursion graph
5. View the SPL chart - now you are looking at the maximum SPL you can get for a given power input with that driver. At this point you don't worry about comparing drivers on the basis of nominal efficiency or xmax, but on the basis of expected results.
Note: the XLS tends to have a better vented response when room gain is taken into account as room gain counteracts the early rolloff.
When you have done all this you can then compare things properly and make a good decision, taking account of the cost of the driver and the amp needed to drive it as well as the output and extension you will get as a result.
In USA the Shiva is cheaper than the XLS but in Australia it's the other way around. Keep in mind that comments about bang for buck with different drivers are often biased towards what is good value in USA, but it can be very different in other countries.
Excellent advice there, Paul. That's pretty much the way I approach it.
Have I convinced you on the vent sizing yet? 😉
Have I convinced you on the vent sizing yet? 😉
richie00boy said:
Thanks, I thought so too 😉
richie00boy said:
*almost*
I can't let you off the hook with linking that article, now can I?
Don't worry, I will post it 😉 I'm just waiting for a friend off here to send me the scanned pages via email. It's 20 or 30 pages @ 200k each and he's on dial-up, so please be patient 🙂
Thanks for the advice 😉 i've spent my whole day trying to find another speaker but the only one I've found is a
Monaco SPH-300KE
Imp¨¦dance (Z) 8 ¦¸
Fr¨¦quence r¨¦sonance (fs) 22 Hz
Bande passante maximale f3-2200 Hz
Puissance maximale 200 WMAX
Puissance nominale (P) 120 WRMS
Pression sonore moyenne (1 W/1 m) 90 dB
Compliance susp. (Cms) 0,81 mm/N
Masse mobile (Mms) 65 g
Surtension m¨¦ca. (Qms) 4,15
Surtension ¨¦lec. (Qes) 0,36
Fact. surtension total (Qts) 0,33
Volume ¨¦qu. (VAS) 250 l
R¨¦sistance DC. (Re) 6,2 ¦¸
Facteur de force (BxL) 12,5 Tm
Inductance bobine (Le) 1,5 mH
Diam¨¨tre bobine 65,5 mm
Support bobine fibres de verre
Excursion lin¨¦aire (XMAX) ¡À6,5 mm
Surface d'¨¦mission (Sd) 496 cm2
Poids aimant 42,7+2,8 oz.
Poids 5,4 kg
but I'm scared with it besauce it goes up to 2.2khz otherwise with a lowpass filter at 80hz and a vented box 95L (with a 120L it looks prety nice too )and about 22 hz it's pretty close to the shiva sealed at 88.5L . Anyway I'll probably end up buying a very expensive shiva because I can't find any other sub up to it .... 🙁
thanks again 😉
Monaco SPH-300KE
Imp¨¦dance (Z) 8 ¦¸
Fr¨¦quence r¨¦sonance (fs) 22 Hz
Bande passante maximale f3-2200 Hz
Puissance maximale 200 WMAX
Puissance nominale (P) 120 WRMS
Pression sonore moyenne (1 W/1 m) 90 dB
Compliance susp. (Cms) 0,81 mm/N
Masse mobile (Mms) 65 g
Surtension m¨¦ca. (Qms) 4,15
Surtension ¨¦lec. (Qes) 0,36
Fact. surtension total (Qts) 0,33
Volume ¨¦qu. (VAS) 250 l
R¨¦sistance DC. (Re) 6,2 ¦¸
Facteur de force (BxL) 12,5 Tm
Inductance bobine (Le) 1,5 mH
Diam¨¨tre bobine 65,5 mm
Support bobine fibres de verre
Excursion lin¨¦aire (XMAX) ¡À6,5 mm
Surface d'¨¦mission (Sd) 496 cm2
Poids aimant 42,7+2,8 oz.
Poids 5,4 kg
but I'm scared with it besauce it goes up to 2.2khz otherwise with a lowpass filter at 80hz and a vented box 95L (with a 120L it looks prety nice too )and about 22 hz it's pretty close to the shiva sealed at 88.5L . Anyway I'll probably end up buying a very expensive shiva because I can't find any other sub up to it .... 🙁
thanks again 😉
This driver has a puny xmax which disqualifies it as a sub. You would need 3 of them to match the output of the Shiva. There is nothing magical about the response of the Shiva and no reason to keep comparing the response of everything else to it.
shannow said:
Wilmslow audio
You can get the Peerless XLS from them. I don't know of any other options, except getting drivers shipped internationally.
For 100 pounds you could look at:
Adire Shiva or Tempest
Dayton Titanic 12"
SAE 1204 (similar to Shiva)
Stryke AV series (not sure about availability)
You should get quotes including shipping from:
Parts Express (Dayton, Peerless)
Adire Audio
Stryke / AE speakers
Thanks for the advice 😉
Yesterday I've contacted a seller in uk to ask if he had a shiva leeft and no luck 🙁 although he's still got one DPL12 new for 150£ I'm still thinking about it .... and I've asked him if he had a tempest in stock .... I'm waiting for the reply 😉
Yesterday I've contacted a seller in uk to ask if he had a shiva leeft and no luck 🙁 although he's still got one DPL12 new for 150£ I'm still thinking about it .... and I've asked him if he had a tempest in stock .... I'm waiting for the reply 😉
Thanks but I've managed (hopefully) to get a tempest next saturday .... i'm gonna fetch it in england 😉 it has all been prepared 😀 with that I should get some nice clean bass . One question again... I'd like to make a 122L sealed box with the tempest (the design is from adire's website) and I would have liked to know if I can just change the design to a front firing instead of downfiring ? will it change the frequency responce ? because the problem is that I have a living room under my bedroom ^^; even if it's well isolated I would preferer to try and concentrate the energy on the walls instead of the ground ...
thank you 😉
thank you 😉
Re: critical Q sub
I gave that a long look before I built my sub. I wound up using a 10" XLS with a matching passive radiator, the heavier one.
The "critical Q" design is a sealed box yielding an unequalized Qtc of 0.5 (critical damping). It rolls off significantly on the low end, as one would expect. Besides some active EQ in the amp, the designer is counting on room lift to flatten the response. The EQ changes the Qtc, but the designer does not seem to be aware of that. And how about the Q of the response in-room ("Qtr"?). The bigger problem with the approach (according to some experts here) is that the correction curve that's used is very optimistic. In my case, the practicalities proved them right.
Measurements in my small listening room (my office at work) show the room lift is all goofy. There's a huge boost at 45 Hz, like +12 dB (!), and a big suckout at 30Hz. I can only guess at what's up with that. Whatever the cause, the lesson is that a generic graph may not tell you anything about the acoustics of a real room.
I solved my EQ problems with a graphic equalizer (Richter Scale Series Three).
THOR said:
I gave that a long look before I built my sub. I wound up using a 10" XLS with a matching passive radiator, the heavier one.
The "critical Q" design is a sealed box yielding an unequalized Qtc of 0.5 (critical damping). It rolls off significantly on the low end, as one would expect. Besides some active EQ in the amp, the designer is counting on room lift to flatten the response. The EQ changes the Qtc, but the designer does not seem to be aware of that. And how about the Q of the response in-room ("Qtr"?). The bigger problem with the approach (according to some experts here) is that the correction curve that's used is very optimistic. In my case, the practicalities proved them right.
Measurements in my small listening room (my office at work) show the room lift is all goofy. There's a huge boost at 45 Hz, like +12 dB (!), and a big suckout at 30Hz. I can only guess at what's up with that. Whatever the cause, the lesson is that a generic graph may not tell you anything about the acoustics of a real room.
I solved my EQ problems with a graphic equalizer (Richter Scale Series Three).
IMO every sub should have eq to get the best out of it. The point about those room gain curves is that they show the boost from the room without any contribution from room modes, which are too unpredictable to show in any generic form. You get something like the curve in a normal room most of the time if there is some bass damping present. But room modes tend to dominate.
What you do about your room is probably more important than what driver and alignment you choose (as long as you make a reasonable choice).
What you do about your room is probably more important than what driver and alignment you choose (as long as you make a reasonable choice).
For music i would definately reccomend a driver with flux shorting rings
which will lower distortion by 6-10db in practise,and also reveals anti distortion action by the speaker manufacturer.
Sure,the shiva etc are value for money and high displacement
-But in the end its the low distortion devices that are worth it.
(I have jbl 2226 with flux shorting rings and SFG)
which will lower distortion by 6-10db in practise,and also reveals anti distortion action by the speaker manufacturer.
Sure,the shiva etc are value for money and high displacement
-But in the end its the low distortion devices that are worth it.
(I have jbl 2226 with flux shorting rings and SFG)
mike.e said:
Mike what are your thoughts on XBL drivers vs low distortion PA drivers? Have you seen any info on their suspension and BL linearity and distortion peformance down to 20 Hz?
The Peerless 10" CSX has shorting rings but I don't think it is as linear as XBL drivers.
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