Hi infinia,
For the money, you should go for the digital version. I'll explain why simply by saying "temperature calibration".
-Chris
For the money, you should go for the digital version. I'll explain why simply by saying "temperature calibration".
-Chris
I use an early Metcal MX-500 and I like mine very much. If you're willing to piece one together, you can get something for minimal cost.
There's currently a vendor on eBay who's clearing out older RFG-30 (working! this is important!) units for a reasonable price (you can also make an offer), and there is currently an auction for the required handpiece (MX-RM3e) that includes some tips.
Comes out cheaper than a PS-900 and just as powerful (or more so actually, I think)
There's currently a vendor on eBay who's clearing out older RFG-30 (working! this is important!) units for a reasonable price (you can also make an offer), and there is currently an auction for the required handpiece (MX-RM3e) that includes some tips.
Comes out cheaper than a PS-900 and just as powerful (or more so actually, I think)
There is no OEM for Hakko. Hakko designs and manufactures everything internally, down to the custom-labeled Hakko microcontroller (which is actually made by Renesas).
The 936 Handle (which is also used in the FX888) has been heavily heavily copied by the chinese, to the point that it is used in EVERY SINGLE knock-off out there. This is just a knock-off, maybe a well made one but a knock-off all the same. The biggest difference i have found is in the tips and the heater. The heaters just aren't up to the same quality as the real deal, some tend to be smaller the quality of the wires and theremistor aren't as good the heating capability isn't as good either. The genuine Hakko tips fit nice, heat up faster and last for a LONG damn time. The Chinese knockoff 936 tips, tend to be looser, which means they heat up slower and their life is 1/4 or less of the genuine hakko tips. The FX888 and FX888D have been HEAVILY HEAVILY knocked-off in China as well. To the point that 95% of the ones on ebay are fake. Some are decent fakes, some not so much. I am not surprised that other fakes are now out that emulate the design but with changes. This is the same thing that happened with the 936. Initially, the fakes fully emulated the 936 THEN they started diversifying. You will likely see designs based around the FX888 start coming out as they emulate the feel and look of this popular device. I will admit, the fakes are very capable but they just don't have the same quality and ability as the real deal. For a LONG time I banged my head using a 936 fake, sold it for $45 on craigslist and purchased an FX888D on sale on Frys for $65 two years ago; best upgrade I have ever made. I went from horrible soldering ability due to lack of heating to finding out I could actually solder pretty well.
Also, on this note the deal is back: Frys has the FX888D on sale for $69 WITH FREE SHIPPING! and the email promo code. If you don't receive their emails, then you should sign up. You get a unique promo code each day that works on ALL of the deals for that day.This is the real deal from an authorized retailer. Great price on an awesome iron. I LOVE MINE! Since I am not using my promo code today, I can send it to someone that wants it. The promo code is only if you want to order it online. That being said, because it is free shipping, you should order in the next few hours because it will sell out. Otherwise, drop by the store they usually have a BUNCH on display. Just mention you received an email for $69 when you check out and they will enter the stores promo code for you.
Good through tomorrow:
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Hi PedroDaGr8,
I respect what you are saying, but my long experience with tools and soldering stations tells me that although you might be correct, you could also be wrong on this. The representative I met in a trade show was carrying this, it isn't an Ebay find. They might even be using the same OEM actually.
I can't recommend the station you are showing there. When the tip is changed, the iron temperature needs to be re-calibrated. You set the temperature, measure it and input the actual reading. Calibration done and it will keep the tip within a couple degrees of that setting. This is much more easily done with an LCD temperature display. I haven't used a station like yours for over 20 years - for good reason. I can see why you might be frustrated with something like that compared to a station with a temperature readout. Moving up two models might send you into rapture compared to the one you are using now.
The trouble I am having with the heat flow is tip related. It is a very long, thin conical tip, some thing I would never use on anything. I bought a wider tip from Eeekbay - could be a knock-off. The real tips should be in any day. Then I can report on how it functions. The Eeekbay tip is very much improved over the conical one. I've done nasty things to the Eeekbay tip and it is holding up nicely, so it can't be that bad.
I also use a "Solomon" SL-30, bought from the OEM. I know because I called and talked to them and was supplied a schematic so I could rebuild mine after 15 years or so of use. It works great still, but takes a long time to warm up compared to the "Quick". I'll keep it because it is a real champ at dumping loads of heat into a joint if required. It also uses a switchable temperature LED display, which I have calibrated (major chore). So that's another keeper. The Quick promises to be better for smt work (although I also have a hot air station). With the other tips, it may even surpass the Solomon station (but I'll still keep it for those heavy jobs when you need two irons for chassis work).
I can't get past Hakko's "my first Sony" colour scheme. Sorry, too "Mattel" for me.
I will also be looking at the next station up in the series. It's more heavy duty, having a different heater and stand. The Quick 3104 Stand is separate from the main unit and is heavy cast metal with the wire ball for cleaning the tip. The next one up adds a sponge to that (thank you!). The hand unit fits tightly in the holder.
-Best, Chris
I respect what you are saying, but my long experience with tools and soldering stations tells me that although you might be correct, you could also be wrong on this. The representative I met in a trade show was carrying this, it isn't an Ebay find. They might even be using the same OEM actually.
I can't recommend the station you are showing there. When the tip is changed, the iron temperature needs to be re-calibrated. You set the temperature, measure it and input the actual reading. Calibration done and it will keep the tip within a couple degrees of that setting. This is much more easily done with an LCD temperature display. I haven't used a station like yours for over 20 years - for good reason. I can see why you might be frustrated with something like that compared to a station with a temperature readout. Moving up two models might send you into rapture compared to the one you are using now.
The trouble I am having with the heat flow is tip related. It is a very long, thin conical tip, some thing I would never use on anything. I bought a wider tip from Eeekbay - could be a knock-off. The real tips should be in any day. Then I can report on how it functions. The Eeekbay tip is very much improved over the conical one. I've done nasty things to the Eeekbay tip and it is holding up nicely, so it can't be that bad.
I also use a "Solomon" SL-30, bought from the OEM. I know because I called and talked to them and was supplied a schematic so I could rebuild mine after 15 years or so of use. It works great still, but takes a long time to warm up compared to the "Quick". I'll keep it because it is a real champ at dumping loads of heat into a joint if required. It also uses a switchable temperature LED display, which I have calibrated (major chore). So that's another keeper. The Quick promises to be better for smt work (although I also have a hot air station). With the other tips, it may even surpass the Solomon station (but I'll still keep it for those heavy jobs when you need two irons for chassis work).
I can't get past Hakko's "my first Sony" colour scheme. Sorry, too "Mattel" for me.
I will also be looking at the next station up in the series. It's more heavy duty, having a different heater and stand. The Quick 3104 Stand is separate from the main unit and is heavy cast metal with the wire ball for cleaning the tip. The next one up adds a sponge to that (thank you!). The hand unit fits tightly in the holder.
-Best, Chris
There IS NO OEM for Hakko. They design internally and build their soldering equipment at Hakko owned plants in Malaysia. I can't say that every item from Hakko is Hakko made, things like fume extractors, flush cutters, etc. are likely not, but for sure their soldering stations 100% are internally designed and made by them.
EDIT: Looking closer at the Quick, the soldering handle (for lack of a better term) is VERY MUCH a 936 clone. It has the slots in the metal collar that many of the clones have. The internals though might be entirely different than the FX888D, I can't find a teardown or they might emulate the 936 internals instead of the FX888 internals. Over all build quality looks pretty good, I would put it at the top end of the after markets designs (which truthfully aren't bad at all).
Also Hakko makes a silver variant of the FX888D but it is virtually impossible to find in the USA:
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Hi PedroDaGr8,
Sorry, I added to my post as it went out before I was done. Reload the page.
I'll have to reserve judgement on who makes what for now. I can't take the loaner apart unless I buy it. I would be more interested in the next model up.
Oh, the Quick also has temperature presets and a lockout for factory use. These are aimed more for commercial production use I think. Worst case here? They might be exactly the same product.
I like the silver colour scheme. That would sell much better I think.
-Chris
Sorry, I added to my post as it went out before I was done. Reload the page.
I'll have to reserve judgement on who makes what for now. I can't take the loaner apart unless I buy it. I would be more interested in the next model up.
Oh, the Quick also has temperature presets and a lockout for factory use. These are aimed more for commercial production use I think. Worst case here? They might be exactly the same product.
I like the silver colour scheme. That would sell much better I think.
-Chris
I'm not denying that the Quick isn't a decent to good quality iron. Only saying that it is well known, that Hakko designs and makes their own irons. They are very Japanese in that way. Unlike Weller post Cooper Tools acquisition, which supposedly outsourced a LOT of the manufacturing. I have heard the same about Metcal post OKI acquisition but haven't read enough to confirm. Truthfully, Quick looks like their current lineup of irons is pretty good quality.
The FX888D has a password lock for temp as well, though truthfully the FX888D is positioned more as a hobbyist iron. Their more industrial stuff is a bit higher up (in quality, performance AND PRICE). That being said it works VERY well for me, I have no real use for anything better. Would I LIKE something better? Yeah, I would love a higher quality iron from a few manufacturers, but truthfully the FX888D has done almost everything I asked of it. Though it can certainly struggle with large ground planes. In those cases I just bust out the hot hair gun and let them take care of it. If it was the choice between a knock-off and the FX888D based on my experiences I would take the FX888D everyday color scheme included.
That being said, asfor the color scheme, in person it is OK (at best) online it is downright atrocious. I still don't know what they were thinking (maybe just wanting to stand out) but I fully agree that they should release the silver one to the USA. It is a much better more professional looking product.
Hi PedroDaGr8,
Well, the important thing is that your station is reliable and works well. The jury is out on the Quick until I can get more material for test. My gut feeling is that it's a very good product, but it has to do the work to get the nod. I will detail my findings in this forum. I'm also going to try and get a distributor list, and from there a dealer list should be easy to look up.
I think it's interesting that the tips seem to be the same as yours, but once I have the large, wide screwdriver tip I can test heat flow.
PedroDaGr8, does your station have a calibration procedure? I found initially a 50°C difference between the un-calibrated temperature compared to the real temperature. Running the adjustment procedure was easy and fast. That completely cured the problem. They warn you to do this in the manual. Changing tips created another difference, and calibrating it again solved the issue. I don't know why the tip change makes a big difference, but maybe this is a characteristic of RF heating? They make a tip thermometer, and I've ordered one to check against my thermocouple and to test it in use. Having another station will cut down on tip changes. I do prefer the "screwdriver" style tips, but they have some pretty nifty tip shapes.
-Chris
Well, the important thing is that your station is reliable and works well. The jury is out on the Quick until I can get more material for test. My gut feeling is that it's a very good product, but it has to do the work to get the nod. I will detail my findings in this forum. I'm also going to try and get a distributor list, and from there a dealer list should be easy to look up.
I think it's interesting that the tips seem to be the same as yours, but once I have the large, wide screwdriver tip I can test heat flow.
PedroDaGr8, does your station have a calibration procedure? I found initially a 50°C difference between the un-calibrated temperature compared to the real temperature. Running the adjustment procedure was easy and fast. That completely cured the problem. They warn you to do this in the manual. Changing tips created another difference, and calibrating it again solved the issue. I don't know why the tip change makes a big difference, but maybe this is a characteristic of RF heating? They make a tip thermometer, and I've ordered one to check against my thermocouple and to test it in use. Having another station will cut down on tip changes. I do prefer the "screwdriver" style tips, but they have some pretty nifty tip shapes.
-Chris
My Metcal PS-900 works great on small and large joints and it has no readout or temperature adjustment knobs yet gets the job done.
What is the benefit of the Hakko, and so many other brands, with temp controls, readouts and some requiring calibration. It also seems the other brand's models, that use RF, are in the same prices range as the Metcal.
I know Metcal top line models have a power readout but how does Metcal get rave reviews without temp. adjustment or calibration requirements?
FWIW I talked with a OKI-Metcal tech and, among other things, asked if there are clones. He said they aren't aware of any but, if there are, buying from an authorized distributor would eliminate that worry. I bought directly from OKI-Metcal. Price was a few dollars lower than few of their distributors.
What is the benefit of the Hakko, and so many other brands, with temp controls, readouts and some requiring calibration. It also seems the other brand's models, that use RF, are in the same prices range as the Metcal.
I know Metcal top line models have a power readout but how does Metcal get rave reviews without temp. adjustment or calibration requirements?
FWIW I talked with a OKI-Metcal tech and, among other things, asked if there are clones. He said they aren't aware of any but, if there are, buying from an authorized distributor would eliminate that worry. I bought directly from OKI-Metcal. Price was a few dollars lower than few of their distributors.
Hi Henry,
Not knowing the temperature your tip is running at is a scary proposition for me. It's nice to know the temperature, and when the heater is active. I do solder at different temperatures depending on the components or joint size.
Why don't some people care? Ever hear of the phrase "fat, dumb and happy"? That refers to a situation where everything is assumed to be working properly, but without any proof or indication that the assumption is true. Often that assumption isn't correct, especially when it comes to non-adjustable temperatures (Weller that uses the curie point for temperature control) and stations that have a knob on a scale on the case. Those can be so far out it isn't funny. So it's not just nice to know, but it is important to know what your tip temperature really is. If this wasn't important, the better stations wouldn't have actual tip temperature readouts.
Even the hot air station has variable temperature and air flow.
I guess it's like everything else. Once you experience the difference, it's terribly hard to go back. If you have a choice, get a soldering station that does monitor actual tip temperature. Never assume anything!
-Chris
Not knowing the temperature your tip is running at is a scary proposition for me. It's nice to know the temperature, and when the heater is active. I do solder at different temperatures depending on the components or joint size.
Why don't some people care? Ever hear of the phrase "fat, dumb and happy"? That refers to a situation where everything is assumed to be working properly, but without any proof or indication that the assumption is true. Often that assumption isn't correct, especially when it comes to non-adjustable temperatures (Weller that uses the curie point for temperature control) and stations that have a knob on a scale on the case. Those can be so far out it isn't funny. So it's not just nice to know, but it is important to know what your tip temperature really is. If this wasn't important, the better stations wouldn't have actual tip temperature readouts.
Even the hot air station has variable temperature and air flow.
I guess it's like everything else. Once you experience the difference, it's terribly hard to go back. If you have a choice, get a soldering station that does monitor actual tip temperature. Never assume anything!
-Chris
I'm not surprised they use the same tips. The Hakko tips were copied extensively with the heater and handle. This actually forced the price down on the genuine Hakko tips. They used to be $20 each and now you can often get them for $5 each from places like Frys.
These are not RF heating, they are direct contact resistive heating (this is true for both the Quick and the Hakko, though Hakko does). The thermocouple is located at the bottom of the heater and not in the tip itself (unlike some higher end resistive heating models which have a thermister embedded right in the tips, which also makes the tips about 5-10x more expensive). This means the longer the tip is the further the tip is away from the thermister reading the temp. So you have to calibrate it to make sure that the reading for that tip stays correct. Truthfully, a few 10s of oC isn't that big of a deal when soldering, provided you have a solid heat source. That being said, it is nice to get your tip temps within 5oC. Thankfully, tip temp readers are very afforadable and reliable making calibration easy.
Yes the FX-888D has a straightforward calibration procedure. It is very easy to access and perform. I don't remember the details but I do know that it is easy to do.
RF soldering inherently does not have the ability to adjust temperature. The temps are set by the tip you use and are controlled by the Curie Point of the metal in the tip. Basically, the tip heats up until the Currie Point is reached, which causes the RF absorbance to drop. The downside to this is that you need a new tip for each temp range you want to work at. The upside is that it is inherently impossible to overtemp. Allowing you to use VERY high power supplies to dump a lot of energy in the tip without worrying about overshoot. Even if you are dumping 100W into the tip, when the metal reaches the currie temp, the absorbance plummets (and most irons will ramp back on the power to save energy).
While there are no KNOCK-OFFS of OKI-Metcal technology there is certainly clones of the technology. The Metcal patents expired a while back and some engineers left Metcal to form Thermaltronics which makes a bunch of compatible and/or similar stuff.
See my above response to Henry about how RF works. Temperature control is accomplished differently with RF systems than it is with resistive heating systems. In RF systems, the Curie point is a physical constant which makes it more or less impossible to overshoot the temp. It is a unique way of doing it, that was originally a Metcal patented system.
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I don't see what's the big deal for calibration esp for hobby stuff, I can easily find out the setting when the iron just starts to melt the solder alloy on the exact tip I tend to use beforehand and mark it. IMO what separates the good irons from the lesser clones is how well (tightly) the sensor is coupled to the tip. Most all irons in this class will overshoot their control point. The less tightly coupled the sensor to the tip the more overshoot time & peaks in temperature. Smaller tips (less mass) on a bigger wire or work area will be another variable factor leading to less control for any iron. E.g match the tool for the job!
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Does the power readout, on the higher model Metcals, show temp or power? Also I've read so many raves about Metcals and the fact that they are used in many electronics mgf. companies that i didn't have second thoughts. When I use it I heat the joint not the solder, and when the solder melts and coats the wires or whatever. I quickly pull away the solder and the hand tool. I don't think I'm over heating any thing
I fact, with my Weller, I would set the temp and wait and wait and insulation would begin to melt back before the connection would accept solder.
I guess ignorance is bliss...I just have confidence in the Metcal
I fact, with my Weller, I would set the temp and wait and wait and insulation would begin to melt back before the connection would accept solder.
I guess ignorance is bliss...I just have confidence in the Metcal
.
this is more a symptom of using the wrong tool for the job. Either too low iron heating power or too small tip for the task.
Hi infinia,
So yes, you can work around anything almost if you have the experience and knowledge to do so. But then, you are wasting time fighting your tools instead of that enjoyable project build. Give me a choice and I'll buy something decent enough to do the job and last. Once you experience the difference, the decision is pretty easy to make. As you might have noticed, I tend to keep things a long time, and I'll fix them before buying something new. There are times when that isn't the best course of action, but I'm too cheap to just buy the latest and greatest every time something nice comes out.
-Chris
You're looking at it from the viewpoint of a journeyman. Those just doing hobbyist type stuff without becoming proficient with their tools tend to become frustrated rather than figuring things out - on average. There's nothing worse than fighting with your tools. The method you are using is something I think we've all done when using an uncontrolled iron of a set wattage rating. You know, the variable control used to run the iron at partial wattage once it has heated up? That works, but it is something prone to requiring a lot of attention instead of being able to focus on the job at hand.
So yes, you can work around anything almost if you have the experience and knowledge to do so. But then, you are wasting time fighting your tools instead of that enjoyable project build. Give me a choice and I'll buy something decent enough to do the job and last. Once you experience the difference, the decision is pretty easy to make. As you might have noticed, I tend to keep things a long time, and I'll fix them before buying something new. There are times when that isn't the best course of action, but I'm too cheap to just buy the latest and greatest every time something nice comes out.
Yup!
-Chris
Hi PedroDaGr8,
-Chris
I know how they work, but thanks for the lesson. I haven't got into any detail on these, but I know that part of the Quick line is RF heated. Once I have the rest of the stuff I'll unpack it again and have a good look at them. I'm just not used to having the static temperature change with the different tip installed. It's not like there is much heat flow anywhere from the tip, so something else is going on. As I mentioned earlier, a tip change requires a tip temperature calibration done while the tip is static, not actually working on a joint. I'll also read the manual again to see what they say about the technology used and such. It has been put away for longer than a month, so I'm not that familiar with it yet.
-Chris
Hi
Thanks for the promotion, but I'm just a amateur.
I appreciate good tools, but often have difficulty justifying buying pro level ones. so appreciate advice coming from anyone who makes their living using them. I look for decent tools maybe a step above the pack and not having to rebuy them b/c they didn't work out.
I thought calibration was matching the tip to the dial / readings. I just pick the wattage and tip for the job, sometimes that means resorting to the big ole 'Weller gun'. I figured most any temp controlled iron operates loop wide open when heating up a joint.
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Hi infinia,
Nope. Most controlled temperature stations in our price bracket are semi-controlled at best, and certainly not calibrated unless you do it yourself. That's why these newer stations are so great. Calibration brought out to be accessed by the user (unless locked out)! Who would have thought this would be possible 5 years ago.
I use my station professionally and used to run a 6,000 sq. foot repair shop. Lot's of irons. I was going broke keeping all the Weller stations in switches and heating elements. Finally I took a chance on the new, unknown "Solomon" station and it was a clear winner. I still have a 12 V Weller tip controlled station, and a WCP that I rebuilt with a new transformer into a new case. Those are for emergencies. Yes, I have repaired amplifiers out in a parking lot with the 12 V job. Strangely the most reliable Weller I have ever owned.
-Chris
Nope. Most controlled temperature stations in our price bracket are semi-controlled at best, and certainly not calibrated unless you do it yourself. That's why these newer stations are so great. Calibration brought out to be accessed by the user (unless locked out)! Who would have thought this would be possible 5 years ago.
I use my station professionally and used to run a 6,000 sq. foot repair shop. Lot's of irons. I was going broke keeping all the Weller stations in switches and heating elements. Finally I took a chance on the new, unknown "Solomon" station and it was a clear winner. I still have a 12 V Weller tip controlled station, and a WCP that I rebuilt with a new transformer into a new case. Those are for emergencies. Yes, I have repaired amplifiers out in a parking lot with the 12 V job. Strangely the most reliable Weller I have ever owned.
-Chris
I admit I only occasionally solder DIY stuff at home. However I got three different tips with the Metcal and using the appropriate tip makes it very easy to quickly get a good shiny joint. I don't foresee ever getting another brand with temp. adjustment, readout or a calibration requirement.
I'm sure I'm missing the fine points of soldering but simple works for me.
I'm sure I'm missing the fine points of soldering but simple works for me.
If you don't mind looking at used gear.....I have been using Pace gear at work for the past 4 years and they are hand over fist better than my Hakko FX888D and my Weller WES-51D I use at home.
Pace is a much higher quality manufacturer but if you are a bit patient you can find a soldering PSU with a vacuum pump but no accessories, then you can find a handpiece without a PSU.
At some point in the future you can find a desoldering handpiece without a PSU and you can get into top end gear for $250-350 used.
Pace is a much higher quality manufacturer but if you are a bit patient you can find a soldering PSU with a vacuum pump but no accessories, then you can find a handpiece without a PSU.
At some point in the future you can find a desoldering handpiece without a PSU and you can get into top end gear for $250-350 used.
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