My version of an Ultrasonic Record Cleaner

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A

andyr

Member
Joined 2003
bbftx said:
Hi Andy,
I have no direct experience with ozone and vinyl, but ozone reacts with lots of things. The chemical compatibility charts mention the chance for making vinyl brittle, or for discoloration.
It's not something I personally would try.

Link: Ozone Chem Compatibility Chart

Cheers,
B B
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Mmmm, thanks for that, B B.

I will experiment with some LPs that can be wasted.

Andy
 
R

redcars

Member
Joined 2014
new2hifi said:
I was not convinced that 80 khz was doing any cleaning. I suspected that from visually looking at LPs that I tired to clean for 10 min at 80 khz. Playing them confirmed that! That actually made me check Elma via foil test.

At 80khz, foil came out as if it has been in a dead machine. Elma made lot of vibrations in water and the temperature did rise to 50 C after 30 min without heater. But so what! For me the ultimate tests were visual inspection and playing the LPs.

Now as I wrote earlier, it could be a bad unit or perhaps 80 khz is not powerful enough. I don't know.
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Hello new,
I have the 80 KHz / 37 KHz Elmasonic P60H and as I commented before . . . http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...ultrasonic-record-cleaner-61.html#post3897701
. . . it has been bulletproof.

The power display should be set to 100%. You should get approximately the same temperature rise in 10 minutes in either 37 or 80 khz.

But ten minutes at 80 khz is not enough; I continue to experiment, and currently I clean "new" records for 30 minutes at 80 khz, and used records for 20 minutes at 37 khz, followed by 20 minutes at 80 khz.
You will have to cool the water down during the 40 minute cycle to avoid going over 50 degrees C.

Good luck,
Don
 
N

new2hifi

Member
Joined 2010
Elma P60H, broken?

Thanks bbftx, notbent, redcars for the push!

I did not have any pictures but on your insistence, I took out the unit back from the return packaging and did the experiment again.

1) I degass the unit at 37 khz for 10 min
2) Hanged aluminum foil at 80 khz for 10 min with "Sweep" function on, No heat

As you can see from the pictures, I now firmly believe the unit I received must be broken.
 
bbftx

bbftx

Member
Joined 2010
Hi New, While someone requested photos of foil, I personally think foil photos are meaningless when it comes to cleaning records ultrasoniically. I was suggesting before and after photos of LPs, as you originally suggested your evidence that the unit was not cleaning LPs was based on visual inspection of the LPs.

More telling are before and after audio files. Some records show no improvement with a properly functioning unit, some LPs will show marked reduction in pops and clicks, some of those might show reduced background noise as well.

Some records show no improvement whatsoever because they might already be clean but have physical damage like scratches or marks, or they are a noisy pressing.

It's unrealistic to clean just a few LPs , hear no difference, and thereby conclude a cleaner isn't working. Elma is a very high quality company with good manufacturing practices. The odds of you getting a broken unit are low. Not zero of course, but low. I am trying to offer you realistic advice based on working with this application for a number of years now, and by incorporating experiences of some of the very rational folks on this forum. Take my advice or ignore it; I'm only suggesting you are being a bit hasty in your decision making.
Cheers,
B B
 
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Zg925

Zg925

Member
Joined 2014
FYI: Used 6 litre/quart Sonix IV utrasonic cleaners on Ebay for reasonable dollars. SS 101 which is the same as ST 136. Item numbers 371913204194 & 142336148927. One 12"x13" large tank ST236 201875405888. I have no association with any of the listings.
 
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N

notbent

Member
Joined 2008
bb I don't know if the foil test has much relevance to cleaning records either, but it seems to be recommended as a method of monitoring the machine's performance.
I read somewhere on the net that the foils should be filed away and then compared with the newest test during the life of the cleaner.

New2 your foil doesn't look right to me... there's no energy distribution just a few holes whacked in.

Here's a pic I saved from Vinyl Asylum a month ago.
Apparently a 10 minute run at 40khz.
Doilies!
 
C

Carlp

Member
Joined 2006
DED said:
Hi guys!
The tank internal size : 300 x 150 x 100 mm (L x W x H)
For example- Ultrasonic cleaner M&MS Series - ultrasonic cleaners > ultrasonic cleaner manufacturer > derui ultrasonic
DR-MS30 or DR-M30 models.
Is this enough or too little???
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I don't have experience enough to say for sure, but the recommended size is 6L and these are 4L at most. Plus, the one that's 11" long is only 3.9" deep while the deeper version (the one you mention) is only 9" long. I don't see any that seem appropriate.
 
N

new2hifi

Member
Joined 2010
Nothing is perfect!

notbent said:
New2 I just had another look at your pics.
I can't see any agitation in the tank... was it turned on when you took the photo?

If yes I'd say she's broke.
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After posting the pictures I realized someone might ask this question.

After taking the pictures I did turn on the machine and then came back to it after ten minutes. So that is why I don't have any pictures of bubbles in water.

What is surprising for me is that it is hard for many people to believe that a German company can let such unit slip past its quality control check. Yes! iPhone is designed in USA but it is manufactured in China and is one of THE quality product I have ever seen :yes:.
 
V

VibratoLLC

Member
Joined 2014
vibratollc.com
new2hifi said:
Thanks bbftx, notbent, redcars for the push!

I did not have any pictures but on your insistence, I took out the unit back from the return packaging and did the experiment again.

1) I degass the unit at 37 khz for 10 min
2) Hanged aluminum foil at 80 khz for 10 min with "Sweep" function on, No heat

As you can see from the pictures, I now firmly believe the unit I received must be broken.
Click to expand...

It appears to me that the ultrasonic generator is not properly tuned to the resonant frequency of the transducer, which would cause a lack of cavitation and concentrated "standing waves" that caused the holes in the foil.

I should also point out that household aluminim foil (Reynolds Wrap) is a much thicker gauge foil than that used in the evaluation of Ultrasonic Cleaners. At 80khz, there may be no sign of dimpling in the thick foil. Lower frequency ultrasonics, however, can and will make dimpling and holes in the thick foil.

-Louis
 
V

VibratoLLC

Member
Joined 2014
vibratollc.com
new2hifi said:
Bought Elma P60H and tried to clean few LPs. However, I did not get much cleaning at 80 kHz. 37 kHz seemed quite powerful!

Then I did the foil test for the cleaning verification of Elma P60H. At 37 kHz the foil developed indentations within 1 min and then tears. However, at 80 kHz the foil showed no indentations even after 30 min; the foil remained perfect; water temperature did rise to 50 C even with heater off.

I am sending Elma P60H back; not sure whether my unit is faulty at 80 kHz or 80 kHz is too soft.
In my experience with these "dual frequency" ultrasonic cleaners, they use a transducer with a resonant frequency of, in your case, 37khz, then shift it to a harmonic frequency, such as 80khz. The problem with this method is the harmonic frequency will be significantly lower power and can cause the ultrasonic generator to run hot.
Every transducer has a specific resonant frequency, and several harmonic frequencies.
I've tested many transducers and have found errors with listed resonant frequencies from the manufactures. In one instance, a 54khz transducer actually was 51khz. It had harmonic frequencies at 45khz, 65khz, 83khz, 110khz, 121khz, etc. However, it only functioned best at its resonant frequency of 51khz.

Of course, you should check with the manufacturer and see if this is, in fact, the case with your ultrasonic cleaner.

Hope this was helpful
-Louis
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A

andyr

Member
Joined 2003
bbftx said:
Hey Andy,
Aquarium filters aren't fine enough to catch anything. They are typically in the 100 micron range. You need a 1 micron filter, and even that won't capture everything from a record cleaning bath.
I use a water filter housing that is 5"x2.5" (e.g. Hydronix brand):
Water Filter Housing 5" x 2.5"

with a 1 micron 5" filter:
1 micron filter for 5" Housing

Then you need a pump, and associated tubing to connect it all together. This is why a drain in the tank is important to have. I used a surplus Little Giant beverage pump in my build. They were $15 but not available now. This is an alternative, although I haven't fully tested one of these. You need enough pressure to push water through a 1 micron filter and all the tubing and back into the URC tank.
Small brushless pump

While the title says this pump is "submersible" it's not. Don't try putting it in the URC tank! That's a bad Chinese translation which should say the pump is not self-priming. It can't be located at a height above your URC tank. When you open the drain on the URC, the water needs to flow to the pump inlet by gravity --- the pump can't create a vacuum to draw the water into the pump outlet on its own.

Cheers
B B
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Well, thanks for the above B B.

This weekend (a long weekend in Oz! :) ) I have finally fired up your suggested 12v pump, with Hydronix filter housing & filter cartridges. I also sourced silicon tubing:
* I need 12mm ID for the tank drain spigot to the pump inlet, and
* 10mm ID for the pump outlet to the filter housing ... and then on to the tank.
* and I had to source some brass connectors, to allow me to attach the tubing to the filter housing (strange they don't supply them with it?).

Anyway, a few experiments have confirmed that - using the 1 micron filter - after blow drying an LP and then listening to it, it doesn't get any quieter if I subsequently wet it again and then use my NG to vacuum it dry. So whatever was still in the bottom of the grooves with the old (aquarium) filter ... is now gone, courtesy of the 1 micron filter.

So I am rapt as it means I no longer have to vacuum dry each individual LP side. I can clean and dry 6 LPs at once - so that is, say, 36x LPs per hour.

Now, re. your recommendation to make sure you open up the filter housing and air dry the filter cartridge at the end of a cleaning session (to stop mould/bacteria growth) ... what about adding a few mills of chlorine to the water, to keep those pesky bacteria at bay? Say, about as much as you add Ilfotrol?

Pools with chlorine use PVC pipes - so I suggest that chlorine is not going to degrade the LP surface.


Andy
 
bbftx

bbftx

Member
Joined 2010
Andy,
DO NOT USE CHLORINE.

Chlorine would be a disaster in a URC.
First, chlorine is corrosive to stainless steel and brass.

Next, chlorine is not chemically compatible with silicone and some other types of soft plastic tubing

Very importantly, if you're using isopropyl, chlorine and IPA together create chloroform gas and HCL.

DO NOT USE CHLORINE.

Regards,
B B
 
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