Beware of heat and PAY ATTENTION to bbftx's instructions
Maybe I would not have had the problem if I had the "rotisserie" installed? Somehow I doubt it. I think the temperature in the GEMORO machine I got must get significantly hotter than the machine bbftx is using.
I was moving the records a quarter turn at a time and letting them sit there three to four minutes.
I had turned the heater on and after a few groups of records cleaned it must have got much hotter than bbftx's machine. I DID NOT monitor the temperature so I have no idea how hot the bath had got.
Well, it got hot enough to melt the PVC. The melts occurred at the top of the bath since one can see the lines. I feel like such an idiot but it is not the first time my enthusiasm has got in the way of being careful.
As usual with these kinds of accidents one's excitement to hear one's favorite records renewed means I have altered some of my favorite records. Luckily not too many but still it makes me sick to have been so dumb.
I must say the first half of the records are fine and very clean sounding. So the excessive heat has benefits but its downside is very bad!
For those on this same path, PLEASE be careful with the bath temperature.
On another subject - bbftx, since I do not have access to a lathe (and since you are obviously a very clever DIY'er) I am hoping you might suggest an alternative to fixing the drill stock rod to the motor shaft? (Got my motor today)
Are there couplers available that would fit the two different diameters together? Hoping you might know if such a thing exists. Something like how a potentiometer knob with two set screws so one could center the two pieces.
Maybe I would not have had the problem if I had the "rotisserie" installed? Somehow I doubt it. I think the temperature in the GEMORO machine I got must get significantly hotter than the machine bbftx is using.
I was moving the records a quarter turn at a time and letting them sit there three to four minutes.
I had turned the heater on and after a few groups of records cleaned it must have got much hotter than bbftx's machine. I DID NOT monitor the temperature so I have no idea how hot the bath had got.
Well, it got hot enough to melt the PVC. The melts occurred at the top of the bath since one can see the lines. I feel like such an idiot but it is not the first time my enthusiasm has got in the way of being careful.
As usual with these kinds of accidents one's excitement to hear one's favorite records renewed means I have altered some of my favorite records. Luckily not too many but still it makes me sick to have been so dumb.
I must say the first half of the records are fine and very clean sounding. So the excessive heat has benefits but its downside is very bad!
For those on this same path, PLEASE be careful with the bath temperature.
On another subject - bbftx, since I do not have access to a lathe (and since you are obviously a very clever DIY'er) I am hoping you might suggest an alternative to fixing the drill stock rod to the motor shaft? (Got my motor today)
Are there couplers available that would fit the two different diameters together? Hoping you might know if such a thing exists. Something like how a potentiometer knob with two set screws so one could center the two pieces.
Yes, you can get them in different size combinations; also flexible and rigid.
Chris: very good! I'm in the process of making my own.
Hey Rick,
Bummer about the overheated vinyl. I am assuming that your particular machine does not have a thermostat controlled heater just an off / on switch? When I put my machine together I was waiting a couple of weeks for my motor and did the manual turn as well. My advice - wait for the motor.
I did not have a lathe either but I went to local metal shop and they did the spindle work for me in about 5 minutes and charged me $15. You might want to look into that as the cost of jerry rigging something else could easily surpass the amount to get it done locally.
Good luck mate!
Bummer about the overheated vinyl. I am assuming that your particular machine does not have a thermostat controlled heater just an off / on switch? When I put my machine together I was waiting a couple of weeks for my motor and did the manual turn as well. My advice - wait for the motor.
I did not have a lathe either but I went to local metal shop and they did the spindle work for me in about 5 minutes and charged me $15. You might want to look into that as the cost of jerry rigging something else could easily surpass the amount to get it done locally.
Good luck mate!
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Hey Chris welcome to the forum! That is a really great looking unit. Makes me want to throw rocks at mine
I am using a 40kHZ unit as well and it seems to get the job done just fine. I have done over 500 lps in it so far so I think I have got my money's worth.
Please let us know about your rinse/vacuum process and the detergent experiment.
Cheers
Thanks, vinyladdict
Your advice is sound.
It is hard to get away from work to go to a machine show which motivates my desire to make it something I can do for myself.
Yes, I bet it would cost me more.
I will try to find someone willing to do it.
Does the machinist simply bore a centered hole and tap a hole for a set screw?
Want to make sure I ask for the right thing.
Thanks, again,
Your advice is sound.
It is hard to get away from work to go to a machine show which motivates my desire to make it something I can do for myself.
Yes, I bet it would cost me more.
I will try to find someone willing to do it.
Does the machinist simply bore a centered hole and tap a hole for a set screw?
Want to make sure I ask for the right thing.
Thanks, again,
Hi Rick,
I know it may sound onerous but it was actually really simple to find a shop (at least in my area). I went there with a photo from BB's setup and explained what I was trying to accomplish. He said "come back after lunch" and it was done. I am not sure which motor you are using - just make sure you confirm the size when you are talking to the machinist.
Good luck
They are called shaft couplers. See here Buy shaft couplers online from RS Components and here Wholesale shaft coupler - Buy Low Price shaft coupler Lots on Aliexpress.com
HTH
Machining
Hi Rick
Yes, that is the essence of the task. Shaft couplers like Shaun suggested can work too.
In either case, you need a "close sliding fit" so there will be very little or no play between the parts. Your spindle will sag otherwise. If you have a machinist do the task for you, it would be best if he had the motor shaft in hand, along with the spindle that he's going to machine. There are lots of home shop machinists in almost every town --- you might find one of them that would do the job for free, just to be helpful. There are dozens of home shop forums out there to ask for local help.
Good luck,
B B
Hi Rick
Yes, that is the essence of the task. Shaft couplers like Shaun suggested can work too.
In either case, you need a "close sliding fit" so there will be very little or no play between the parts. Your spindle will sag otherwise. If you have a machinist do the task for you, it would be best if he had the motor shaft in hand, along with the spindle that he's going to machine. There are lots of home shop machinists in almost every town --- you might find one of them that would do the job for free, just to be helpful. There are dozens of home shop forums out there to ask for local help.
Good luck,
B B
Meltdown
Sorry to hear about the overheating, Rick. Bummer. I think it was Ishmail that was told his Gemoro had a set point of about 170°F for the heater. That is hot enough to melt PVC and too hot to run all the time when cleaning LPs.
Was your fluid level as high as possible? I know that made a big difference on my setup in keeping the temperature under control.
Everyone should definitely monitor their own particular machines, as I can imagine there could quite a bit of temperature variation from unit to unit of the same model.
The safe procedure would be to turn off the heater while the records are running in a cleaning cycle. Turn on the heater when you're unloading and loading your machine, check the temp, and turn off the heater when you lower the newly lowered records into place.
I keep one of those little espresso/barista thermometers right next to my machine when I'm using it so I can monitor temps. You could also get one that just clips onto the side of the tank and keep it there all the time. Hmmm, I may do that...
B B
Sorry to hear about the overheating, Rick. Bummer. I think it was Ishmail that was told his Gemoro had a set point of about 170°F for the heater. That is hot enough to melt PVC and too hot to run all the time when cleaning LPs.
Was your fluid level as high as possible? I know that made a big difference on my setup in keeping the temperature under control.
Everyone should definitely monitor their own particular machines, as I can imagine there could quite a bit of temperature variation from unit to unit of the same model.
The safe procedure would be to turn off the heater while the records are running in a cleaning cycle. Turn on the heater when you're unloading and loading your machine, check the temp, and turn off the heater when you lower the newly lowered records into place.
I keep one of those little espresso/barista thermometers right next to my machine when I'm using it so I can monitor temps. You could also get one that just clips onto the side of the tank and keep it there all the time. Hmmm, I may do that...
B B
ultrasonic cleaner
rickmcinnis, I think you could simplify things by using a hardwood dowel instead of a steel shaft for your cleaner. You would have very little trouble drilling a hole in the center with a handheld drill and then just use a sliver of wood and some epoxy to create the D shape of the motor drive and to glue it to the shaft. It takes very little torque to spin the records and I'm sure this would work just fine. Just make sure to place a cardboard or masking tape gasket between the dowel and motor bushing so you don't seize the motor with epoxy. I would also rough up the motor shaft with a small file or dremel for a really good bond.
rickmcinnis, I think you could simplify things by using a hardwood dowel instead of a steel shaft for your cleaner. You would have very little trouble drilling a hole in the center with a handheld drill and then just use a sliver of wood and some epoxy to create the D shape of the motor drive and to glue it to the shaft. It takes very little torque to spin the records and I'm sure this would work just fine. Just make sure to place a cardboard or masking tape gasket between the dowel and motor bushing so you don't seize the motor with epoxy. I would also rough up the motor shaft with a small file or dremel for a really good bond.
Thanks for all the good advice
I had considered the wooden dowel but was concerned that the diameter needed would not be available so I went ahead got the drill stock.
I have ordered a collar for the motor shaft which takes it from 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch which will then fit into a coupling that is 1/4 inch on one end and 3/8 inch on the other. I will use copper foil wrapped around the shaft to get the needed diameter. If this does not work I will find a machinist!
My idea for the support for the LP holder is to build a frame that the machine can be placed in. Since I bought the machine new I am not ready to drill holes in it. The frame will completely support the machine and allow more space underneath for better cooling of the transducers. Other than that I will retain bbftx's approach with the swinging arm on the narrow end. This will be attached to the frame using the same brackets as bbftx recommended.
Since I have to maintain my yard sprinklers I have PVC glue on hand - I will use that instead of threaded fittings. I got a plastic box for the motor instead of the metal one specified so I can glue the tubing to this, also. The motor will need to be mounted to the cover with the plastic version since the "box" side has lots of surface irregularities which precluded mounting the motor unless one was willing to do some grinding; on second thought lots of grinding.
Yes, a thermometer is needed with this machine. Last night I cycled it on and off. I never let it get too hot since I have not installed a thermometer yet.
I was thinking of using an aquarium thermometer though I am not sure if the range would be sufficient. Glad to know there is such a thing as a coffee thermometer! I have two choices - whichever one I find first.
One looks back at their mistakes and realizes: you had plenty of warning that something was suspect. I keep my house colder than most folks (more money for LPs) so I ignored the water vapor rising from the tank! Of course, if my house was warm there would not have been so much vapor. BUT it should have been obvious that there was lots more vapor than a 120 degrees bath would generate! I have always reassured myself that education is always expensive.
As soon as this part is completed the filtering will come next.
I had considered the wooden dowel but was concerned that the diameter needed would not be available so I went ahead got the drill stock.
I have ordered a collar for the motor shaft which takes it from 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch which will then fit into a coupling that is 1/4 inch on one end and 3/8 inch on the other. I will use copper foil wrapped around the shaft to get the needed diameter. If this does not work I will find a machinist!
My idea for the support for the LP holder is to build a frame that the machine can be placed in. Since I bought the machine new I am not ready to drill holes in it. The frame will completely support the machine and allow more space underneath for better cooling of the transducers. Other than that I will retain bbftx's approach with the swinging arm on the narrow end. This will be attached to the frame using the same brackets as bbftx recommended.
Since I have to maintain my yard sprinklers I have PVC glue on hand - I will use that instead of threaded fittings. I got a plastic box for the motor instead of the metal one specified so I can glue the tubing to this, also. The motor will need to be mounted to the cover with the plastic version since the "box" side has lots of surface irregularities which precluded mounting the motor unless one was willing to do some grinding; on second thought lots of grinding.
Yes, a thermometer is needed with this machine. Last night I cycled it on and off. I never let it get too hot since I have not installed a thermometer yet.
I was thinking of using an aquarium thermometer though I am not sure if the range would be sufficient. Glad to know there is such a thing as a coffee thermometer! I have two choices - whichever one I find first.
One looks back at their mistakes and realizes: you had plenty of warning that something was suspect. I keep my house colder than most folks (more money for LPs) so I ignored the water vapor rising from the tank! Of course, if my house was warm there would not have been so much vapor. BUT it should have been obvious that there was lots more vapor than a 120 degrees bath would generate! I have always reassured myself that education is always expensive.
As soon as this part is completed the filtering will come next.
To give the records a nice warm bath lol?
I know that when I do the dishes that oils, grease and fats on the dishes will be much more easier to get off when they are cleaned under warm/hot water.
People will seep bodily oils and fluids from their fingers as a part of their normal skin protecting/healing/renegeration process I can only imagine that warming up the water will clean this from the records.
Though wether or not this is good for the records is another topic entirely, do built up bodily oil/fluids that are deposited upon the surface of records cause the premature degredation of vinyl or protect it from further unnecessary wear and tear from a needle by very slightly lubing it?
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Most important benefit of cleaning records
We all start off thinking that it sure will be nice to get rid of that noise yet when you listen to a CLEAN record what strikes you is not the reduction in pops and clicks but the sound becomes much better in all of the tortured jargon ways. The ticks and pops will remain, though diminished, but what is revealed is astounding.
I have used the VPI approach and later the MERRILL high pressure spigot method and each brought about better sound.
But this US thing is another thing entirely. Even records cleaned before by either of the previous schemes sound transformed.
As has long been said improvements got from cleaning records, and other such tweaks, can be got no other way. No matter how much money you spend on other components you can never get what you will experience with a REALLY clean record.
I was first worried that the money spent on this machine was going to end up being a bit of a disappointment. Sure it would do a better job ... At this point after three nights of hearing BY FAR the best sound quality ever heard in my house I consider this to be one of the best uses of money I have made.
The improvement is way beyond what I have experienced when upgrading amplifiers. No comparison. More akin to speaker exchanges when going from a bookshelf to something of substance.
There is a massive amount of information on our LPs. I am realizing this with great clarity now. You simply will not believe the increase in spatial information for one. I will not go on with that kind of thing but I hope you get the idea.
I still am just moving the LPs by hand a quarter turn every three minutes. Whether the constant movement from the motor is better, and how much better, will have to wait until next week.
AGAIN, my thanks to bbftx for making the project compelling by his enthusiasm and his detailed description of his approach. His posts are a great gift ready for the taking.
We all start off thinking that it sure will be nice to get rid of that noise yet when you listen to a CLEAN record what strikes you is not the reduction in pops and clicks but the sound becomes much better in all of the tortured jargon ways. The ticks and pops will remain, though diminished, but what is revealed is astounding.
I have used the VPI approach and later the MERRILL high pressure spigot method and each brought about better sound.
But this US thing is another thing entirely. Even records cleaned before by either of the previous schemes sound transformed.
As has long been said improvements got from cleaning records, and other such tweaks, can be got no other way. No matter how much money you spend on other components you can never get what you will experience with a REALLY clean record.
I was first worried that the money spent on this machine was going to end up being a bit of a disappointment. Sure it would do a better job ... At this point after three nights of hearing BY FAR the best sound quality ever heard in my house I consider this to be one of the best uses of money I have made.
The improvement is way beyond what I have experienced when upgrading amplifiers. No comparison. More akin to speaker exchanges when going from a bookshelf to something of substance.
There is a massive amount of information on our LPs. I am realizing this with great clarity now. You simply will not believe the increase in spatial information for one. I will not go on with that kind of thing but I hope you get the idea.
I still am just moving the LPs by hand a quarter turn every three minutes. Whether the constant movement from the motor is better, and how much better, will have to wait until next week.
AGAIN, my thanks to bbftx for making the project compelling by his enthusiasm and his detailed description of his approach. His posts are a great gift ready for the taking.
Hi JR, (although I like the HairyJohn nickname better!)
I run my bath temp between 110-120°F (43-49°C). The reasoning being that is the upper range for hand comfort and is also not too hot to damage LPs.
Good luck, looking forward to seeing your efforts soon,
B B
Bath Temperature
I had been operating under the simple assumption that the higher the ultrasonic bath temperature, the better the cleaning action.
From reading a couple of different articles on the topic, it appears there are different mechanisms at work that make the question a little more complicated. And, as usual, there are different opinions from different manufacturers.
Here are two interesting views:
Zenith Ultrasonics Temperature Recommendations
Tovatech Temperature Recommendations
The Tovatech write up is interesting because it mentions blood and human protein impurities and limiting temps to 107°F to prevent hardening of these impurities on the stainless steel surfaces. I believe skin oils don't fall into this category however, and a slightly higher temp is better for oil removal.
I trust the Zenith write-up, as they seem to have lots of history and credibility in matters of ultrasonic cleaning. Note that Zenith is US based, so I believe the %age temps they refer to are percentage of Farenheit boiling point (212°F for plain water).
B B
I had been operating under the simple assumption that the higher the ultrasonic bath temperature, the better the cleaning action.
From reading a couple of different articles on the topic, it appears there are different mechanisms at work that make the question a little more complicated. And, as usual, there are different opinions from different manufacturers.
Here are two interesting views:
Zenith Ultrasonics Temperature Recommendations
Tovatech Temperature Recommendations
The Tovatech write up is interesting because it mentions blood and human protein impurities and limiting temps to 107°F to prevent hardening of these impurities on the stainless steel surfaces. I believe skin oils don't fall into this category however, and a slightly higher temp is better for oil removal.
I trust the Zenith write-up, as they seem to have lots of history and credibility in matters of ultrasonic cleaning. Note that Zenith is US based, so I believe the %age temps they refer to are percentage of Farenheit boiling point (212°F for plain water).
B B
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heating temps
bbftx
Thanks for the detailed info
I recently built a US Cleaner which I use in my garage.
I have been cleaning at ambient temp (in warmer weather) and was interested in using higher temp based on your recommendation, but hadn't experimented yet.
After reading this info - I will clean some LPs I previously cleaned that still sound noisy, and check for improvement with bath temp between (43-49°C) = 110-120°F.
With colder garage temps, I obviously need to heat water somewhat - now I have a useful guideline.
Thanks
Tim
bbftx
Thanks for the detailed info
I recently built a US Cleaner which I use in my garage.
I have been cleaning at ambient temp (in warmer weather) and was interested in using higher temp based on your recommendation, but hadn't experimented yet.
After reading this info - I will clean some LPs I previously cleaned that still sound noisy, and check for improvement with bath temp between (43-49°C) = 110-120°F.
With colder garage temps, I obviously need to heat water somewhat - now I have a useful guideline.
Thanks
Tim
Thanks B B That was more or less what I was thinking, My bath has been ordered. My plan is to make a 'lid" that will support a spindle and power is with a small model car motor running on the edge of the record,
I would like the unit to be separate so that the bath can be used for motorcycle stuff as well,
HJ ( That better )
I would like the unit to be separate so that the bath can be used for motorcycle stuff as well,
HJ ( That better )
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