My sand "burned in"

xymox1 · 2013-09-19 9:30 pm

So I added sand to my speakers. The speakers are covered here

Something weird happened. I have been burning in my speakers/cables/xovers and gear for weeks. It was all very stable burn-in wise.

I put in 70lbs of sand in the speakers. They sounded better right away. I left them playing for 3 days and they sounded WAY better. The sand had "burned-in". It was a big change. It was not subtle. So I guess the billions of sand particles settled in the 3 days and are working better. Crazy as that sounds.

I really never imagined sand could burn in, but it can...

firechief · 2013-09-19 9:34 pm

Sun Spots.

sreten · 2013-09-19 10:04 pm

Hi,

That sand will settle is sensible. That you can reliably ascertain
so called "burn-in" over a number of weeks isn't sensible at all.

rgds, sreten.

firechief · 2013-09-19 10:43 pm

good point sreten. Now if the speakers are moved? even if the sand was captive in a chamber or such it would need to settle all over. I believe that using sand is pretty common. Do I recall that Warfdale had models with sand in them?

xymox1 · 2013-09-19 11:17 pm

Sun Spots.

Ahhh.. Of course.. I should have checked the solar flux Today's Space Weather

That you can reliably ascertain so called "burn-in" over a number of weeks isn't sensible at all.

Oh sure it is. Ive been doing super high end systems for 2 decades changing out gear/wire for clients often and yea no doubt burn-in occurs. The effect is far more obvious as you go up in quality of gear. Sometimes its just mind boggling how much a difference can occur. Long line level runs are really prone to this. But drivers in speakers and high end crossover parts like poly caps also burn-in for sure. Now over weeks, I dont listen every day. I let things run for days and come back and listen.

And by burn-in im not talking subtle. Like suddenly there is a instrument you did not even know was there.

Even complete novices who have never listened to high end gear hear burn-in. I had a friend who had never heard high end gear and was over at the start of my speaker project and listened then came over a week later and said "Wow, they sound better what did you do ?" when i had not touched anything. Literally I did not touch anything.

Now this sand... That took me by surprize. It does make sense. All the particles setteling into place and dampening better. It was still surprizing.

But yes. I agree, Solar Flux..

Bob Richards · 2013-09-20 12:24 am

the EE's I worked with at Tektronix and Dolby Labs all seemed to agree that the audio memory is pretty bad. I'd ad to that, that our hearing is substantially inconsistent, but we adapt enough to not realize this. An Audiologist (medical) told me that it's normal for the inner-ear chamber to buildup pressure over time, not enough to be obvious, but enough to affect our impression of a speaker. This is something that occasionally gets normalized, and creates inconsistency in our hearing. I think the importance of burn-in is exaggerated by many.

Absconditus · 2013-09-20 12:44 am

Oh sure it is. Ive been doing super high end systems for 2 decades changing out gear/wire for clients often and yea no doubt burn-in occurs. The effect is far more obvious as you go up in quality of gear. Sometimes its just mind boggling how much a difference can occur. Long line level runs are really prone to this. But drivers in speakers and high end crossover parts like poly caps also burn-in for sure. Now over weeks, I dont listen every day. I let things run for days and come back and listen.

And by burn-in im not talking subtle. Like suddenly there is a instrument you did not even know was there.

Even complete novices who have never listened to high end gear hear burn-in. I had a friend who had never heard high end gear and was over at the start of my speaker project and listened then came over a week later and said "Wow, they sound better what did you do ?" when i had not touched anything. Literally I did not touch anything.

The only "burn in" occurs in the brain of the listener. Human beings are notoriously unreliable in their perception, and not just hearing. There is so much research, available on the web, that shows peoples' absolute certainty about seeing or hearing something is wrong when shown what they actually saw or heard. The real of intellect is the recognition and acceptance of your own fallibility, and that is a step most people are either unable or unwilling to take.

The next problem is when some one declares absolutely that their perception is correct. Generally, those people will not accept that they are wrong despite absolute evidence to the contrary. It is a bit like declaring a disease is cured by homeopathy when the "cure" is only water with a bit of sugar in it. Again, despite physics and chemistry having proven that Avogadro's Number (6.0221413e+23) is a certainty, some are convinced that a dilution past that number will still yield a physical presence of the original (though still dodgy) compound.

Nothing can shake the True-believer syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Abs

Bob Richards · 2013-09-20 1:21 am

Was it Mark Twain that said something like, "It's not what we don't know that kills us, but what we are absolutely sure of, that ain't true" ?

Pano · 2013-09-20 1:28 am

Is this what they call "Sandburn?"

Absconditus · 2013-09-20 2:10 am

I've heard of "windburn" (a mistaken view that one cannot be sunburnt on an overcast day), but "sandburn", no.

Fonebones · 2013-09-20 3:27 pm

Whatever it is, I hope that you have an opening on top of the sand filled chamber that allows you to fill in a little bit more sand.
Now there might be an small airgap because the filling is more compact.

Hawaiiman · 2013-09-22 2:50 pm

Any builder knows that materials like dirt or sand become more firm as they settle. More firm= LESS dampening...?

Fonebones · 2013-09-23 3:23 am

Knocking and shacking the Speakers every 5 Minutes to unsettle the sand could be inconvenient.
May be a bitumen filling will be more practical.
I wonder if the filling will make much more difference than a good feeling.
Without measurements it seems to be just a hope.

Richard Ellis · 2013-09-23 4:39 am

I got it...why doesn't one spray some of that "Spray adhesive"...the one that's used to lay down carpeting in cars?? Spray some on your favorite driver, sprinkle some Talcum powder immediately on the cone? Cornstarch, graphite...work your way up to sand. Measure the fantastic.........Oh wait, don't measure, God forbid............just listen to how much better it sounds! An earthy, particular type sound it emanates. You could charge $50 for the select Tahitian sand....no, no Bali for that "tropical" sound.

_______________________________________________Rick..............

Hawaiiman · 2013-09-23 7:13 am

There are so many helpful folk here, maybe someone can explain what's wrong. My "/cables/xovers and gear " just don't seem to be burning in! What AM I doing wrong?

Stuey · 2013-09-23 7:14 am

There is no doubt fine white Australian beach sand is the best for speakers.

(Now when this one gets out I'll makes some cash, living adjacent to a white-sanded beach...).

Fonebones · 2013-09-23 2:41 pm

I don't know how it is with others - on my side it is because my ears are already burned in for ages and my memory is so bad that i can't remember
perfectly exact how the sound was 10 seconds ago. Many times i only get the feeling that there is sth different. Most times it is also hard to decide,
for me, if it is only different or better or worse, cause what i like depends also on my moods. What catches me now may be different after i get used to it.

If there is a burn in effect it will simply happen while I listen to music and it will also happen to my ears.

Anyhow, I don't think its a bad idea to do sth with an otherwise unused cavity. Even if it did not work out as expected it is worth a try.
In the end it only counts what makes us happy.

Oh - i remember some real burn in effect! I have an old Marantz 2265B that i use extreme seldom. Sometimes the speaker-relay contacts need some
burn in because there is no sound at low levels. After some serious burn in at high levels it works again for low levels. At least for a while...

BTW. I don't think that Australian sand is a good idea. Somewhere i heared that it may lower the speech intelligibility

cliffforrest · 2013-09-23 3:59 pm

And long notes seem to rise in pitch at the end.

Brian Oshman · 2013-09-23 4:07 pm

xymox1 said:
Even complete novices who have never listened to high end gear hear burn-in. I had a friend who had never heard high end gear and was over at the start of my speaker project and listened then came over a week later and said "Wow, they sound better what did you do ?" when i had not touched anything. Literally I did not touch anything.

They heard the change in barometric pressure. The changes you think are happening are nonsense.

Brian Oshman · 2013-09-23 4:18 pm

xymox1 said:
So I added sand to my speakers. The speakers are covered here

Something weird happened. I have been burning in my speakers/cables/xovers and gear for weeks. It was all very stable burn-in wise.

I put in 70lbs of sand in the speakers. They sounded better right away. I left them playing for 3 days and they sounded WAY better. The sand had "burned-in". It was a big change. It was not subtle. So I guess the billions of sand particles settled in the 3 days and are working better. Crazy as that sounds.

I really never imagined sand could burn in, but it can...

Adding 70lbs of sand is changing the volume of the enclosure. This is also the change you are hearing. There is no burn in occurring.

My sand "burned in"

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