As a recording engineer specializing in acoustic music, mainly "classical" and jazz, I agree with everything in this post, including estimates of the amount and nature of gain reduction in "Jazz at the Pawnshop.
I use compression and limiting on almost every recording but always try to make it undetectable, which is standard practice for almost all engineers of this persuasion.
I put out a CD of a 95 piece orchestra playing Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet Suites, uncompressed by request from the conductor, and people were running out of gain on their preamps trying to bring it to proper levels! It was peaking at -0.5 dB, so it could not have been any louder!
One factor that may be overlooked by some is that the distance things are miced at is always much closer than the distance you would choose to listen to that same thing, and at that distance the sound is more dynamic than you would experience at a comfortable listening distance and needs to be compressed to simulate reality more closely.
Sorry to continue with the OT, but I thought this might be of interest.
It's interesting to discuss recording process, be it OT or not. Unfortunately most of us (who are not in that industry or have no related experiences) can only hear the end products and 'imagine' what happened.
It's actually not that bad, though. As mentioned (sorry I forget by whom), with good speakers (e.g. OB😀 ), it's easy to tell the bass & drums in the pop music are made by midi or the real things. With better & better 'tools', we ordinary consumers can also examine the qualities of the works by pros.
In the end, actually I don't care very much about the 'honesty' along the process of recordings. If only the sounds are close enough to my recognitions, emotionally or sensationally.
Years ago, once I checked and sorted the audio equipment at the auditorium of a local high school. Meantime the student wind band was rehearsing on the stage. A door way connected the stage and the back stage where I was working. It’s at the side near the rear of stage with a distance of only 2~3 meters IIRC. The bass drum happened to be arranged at this corner of stage.
In such band, the drum stick for the bass drum is wrapped as a soft fuzzy ball, so the hits are ‘softer’ sounding than an unwrapped stick head. Even so, the explosion-like impact energy was phenomenon - its membrane happened to face right towards me. I could almost feel the air ‘boundary’ of the wavefront – like a burst of wind, swept and shook my whole body. (Maybe it was reinforced by the room/space where I was – like a mega bandpass.)
I’ve never heard anything like that via loudspeakers. The closest experiences were by horns. One of them was a pair of old K-horn (don’t remember the actual year, not the ‘new-production’ later for sure). I think, however, the right combinations of amps, speakers, room, materials being played, even the mood and companions helped a lot. Nevertheless it gave me a memory which is still fresh after all these years (just like the drum of the high school band).
Now, my own dipole bass also comes very close. (It’s not that I pride myself on it, just don’t know anyone near me also built such things. You guys watching this are all in the other side of the planet.) I don’t have sophisticated digital gears to render the signal (to approach the ideal). The T-bass circuit I tried and the hi-Z amp I’m using now are more of ‘damping tuning by impedance’, fundamental and old school as they seem, still deliver a brilliant result in retaining the punchy dynamics and also the delicate content and clean decay.
It's actually not that bad, though. As mentioned (sorry I forget by whom), with good speakers (e.g. OB😀 ), it's easy to tell the bass & drums in the pop music are made by midi or the real things. With better & better 'tools', we ordinary consumers can also examine the qualities of the works by pros.
In the end, actually I don't care very much about the 'honesty' along the process of recordings. If only the sounds are close enough to my recognitions, emotionally or sensationally.
Years ago, once I checked and sorted the audio equipment at the auditorium of a local high school. Meantime the student wind band was rehearsing on the stage. A door way connected the stage and the back stage where I was working. It’s at the side near the rear of stage with a distance of only 2~3 meters IIRC. The bass drum happened to be arranged at this corner of stage.
In such band, the drum stick for the bass drum is wrapped as a soft fuzzy ball, so the hits are ‘softer’ sounding than an unwrapped stick head. Even so, the explosion-like impact energy was phenomenon - its membrane happened to face right towards me. I could almost feel the air ‘boundary’ of the wavefront – like a burst of wind, swept and shook my whole body. (Maybe it was reinforced by the room/space where I was – like a mega bandpass.)
I’ve never heard anything like that via loudspeakers. The closest experiences were by horns. One of them was a pair of old K-horn (don’t remember the actual year, not the ‘new-production’ later for sure). I think, however, the right combinations of amps, speakers, room, materials being played, even the mood and companions helped a lot. Nevertheless it gave me a memory which is still fresh after all these years (just like the drum of the high school band).
Now, my own dipole bass also comes very close. (It’s not that I pride myself on it, just don’t know anyone near me also built such things. You guys watching this are all in the other side of the planet.) I don’t have sophisticated digital gears to render the signal (to approach the ideal). The T-bass circuit I tried and the hi-Z amp I’m using now are more of ‘damping tuning by impedance’, fundamental and old school as they seem, still deliver a brilliant result in retaining the punchy dynamics and also the delicate content and clean decay.
MarzZ,
Regarding my Eminence Alpha15 baffles, they started as testbaffles for my MJAO 3-way passive design: MJAO G 098 - The Anagram - Crossover revision .
Now they are in their 4th and 5th iteration looking like this:
Active with 18Sound 6ND430-8 and B&C DE250 in a heavily bitumen silenced Dayton 12" Waveguide. And:
In a project together with Kevin over at Audiocircle for a 3-way passive with 6ND430-8 and Vifa D27TG35-6.
/Erling
Regarding my Eminence Alpha15 baffles, they started as testbaffles for my MJAO 3-way passive design: MJAO G 098 - The Anagram - Crossover revision .
Now they are in their 4th and 5th iteration looking like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Active with 18Sound 6ND430-8 and B&C DE250 in a heavily bitumen silenced Dayton 12" Waveguide. And:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
In a project together with Kevin over at Audiocircle for a 3-way passive with 6ND430-8 and Vifa D27TG35-6.
/Erling
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A bit OT here, so I'll come back with more when I have finished new and I hope innovative baffles for these speakers. But two combos produce outstanding sound here now active driven and that's the 6ND430 paired with either the DE250 waveguide or a plain B&G Neo3Pdr. They are a bit different but both very good in all respects and for all kind of music and voice. 🙂
/Erling
/Erling
😉
Fostexspeaker.de by Mega Audio
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.fostexspeaker.de/woofer/fwserie/fw800n.pdf
The FW800N seems to be listed at ~ EUR 3000.- should you be interested in a bunch of those..
😀
Michael
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Minor updates here. The steel chains used for suspending the drivers transferred some sound from the drivers to the wood frame, so I decided to go back to rubber for additional suspension. The pics below should tell it all. I used rubber straps of this type, that was modified a little bit:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And I'm going to build a final version of this speaker now. The driver config will be what I have now, only with four 21" woofers per side.
The woofers will be two H-baffles per side, each with two drivers. They will be made from 25 mm MDF, black laquer, cloth front grilles.
The main dipoles will be hung inside an aluminum tube frame, and then the entire frame will be covered with black cloth to hide it all. Simple as that!
The woofers will be two H-baffles per side, each with two drivers. They will be made from 25 mm MDF, black laquer, cloth front grilles.
The main dipoles will be hung inside an aluminum tube frame, and then the entire frame will be covered with black cloth to hide it all. Simple as that!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Its beautiful to see you obviously being satisfied with your results !
Why not stay with the anthracite color for the cloth as in the drawing - looks great in that black frame !
Michael
Why not stay with the anthracite color for the cloth as in the drawing - looks great in that black frame !
Michael
Stig-Erik,
Good Luck !
I do admire your straight way throug this, taking your own way.
But I also like your admissions in other threads that there are grades to your sucess. So I think the field is not really closed for improvements or different lines to develop.
In some framework I would point to Power Response as advocated by Geedle as a bit of a contrast to also what he is advocating with this CD mania. And as to be achieved by OBs.
I think there still is an ocean of possibilities to be examined. But in a way I can support the Power Response concept overtaking the fine print of OB performance.
/Erling
Good Luck !
I do admire your straight way throug this, taking your own way.
But I also like your admissions in other threads that there are grades to your sucess. So I think the field is not really closed for improvements or different lines to develop.
In some framework I would point to Power Response as advocated by Geedle as a bit of a contrast to also what he is advocating with this CD mania. And as to be achieved by OBs.
I think there still is an ocean of possibilities to be examined. But in a way I can support the Power Response concept overtaking the fine print of OB performance.
/Erling
Hi Stig,
in my opinion it would be a shame to cover such beautiful midrange drivers...cover the woofers if you must.
ed
in my opinion it would be a shame to cover such beautiful midrange drivers...cover the woofers if you must.
ed
I agree, I think it looks awesome exposed! If you can just make the frames nicer looking I think that would be tops.
I also would still like to see you experiment with a line source/array and know your impressions someday.
In any case, this has been an informative and fun thread to follow. Thank you for posting!
Black speaker grill cloth looks dark grey together with black laquer due to different material textures and the way they reflect light.
About time I took a trip over to StigErik to hear the things again. (Almost) constant directivity in a room like his is good for the enjoyment of canned music.
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Round tubing or box tubing? Box is easier to work with but Vandersteen uses round in similar constructions to reduce diffraction. Could be worthwhile since this is a very optimized system and switching from a two post to a four post frame moves the posts out of the dipole null.
I've been thinking along the same line....
I myself use standard spruce wood posts – two each side ~ 4cm by 4 cm placed in the dipole null and turned by 45 deg for a nicer look – and an additional one at the back (not exactly necessary and will most certainly omit on next (huge) frame).
If I would be on cloth grills, I'd give the "umbrella trick" a try.
Two post in the dipole null and a rectangle at top and bottom roughly the size of Stig's 4-post foot print. Then a ~ 5mm aluminuim tube vertically edge to edge and slightly curved towards outside to withstand the tension of the elastic cloth – that's it
The fiber rods used for modern tents should be a interesting alternative if it could be sourced in the right length...
Michael
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Hi StigErik,
I am very interested in the shape of the crossover and equalization you are sending to each speaker(group).
Now that you have completed the basic design, can you find a method to plot out the summation of crossover + dipole step + equalization you send to each speaker(group)? It would be educational to understand the extra midrange and tweeter compensation. Room equalization would be unique to your setup and voicing goals.
I am very interested in the shape of the crossover and equalization you are sending to each speaker(group).
Now that you have completed the basic design, can you find a method to plot out the summation of crossover + dipole step + equalization you send to each speaker(group)? It would be educational to understand the extra midrange and tweeter compensation. Room equalization would be unique to your setup and voicing goals.
Box tubing, but only 20 mm. I dont think it will be any worse than the 50 mm posts I have now, even if they are almost in the dipole nulls. If it will be a problem I can always put on some damping felt or foam.