Some background before we begin...
For my PA setup, I'm currently running some Fane Sov. Pro 12-500 midbass drivers in ported cabs with EV DH1a compression drivers on either EV HP64 (60x40) horns, or P.Audio 90x40 horns which don't impress me at all - the angles at the horn throat mean they've lots of diffraction, and the response above 10kHz drops like a stone.
The EV drivers are very very good, but also very heavy for what they are. I'd like to make the switch to something small, cute, and neodymium-based.
I already have the the midbasses for the next iteration, four of these: http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/10FH520/8/10FH520_datasheet_8.pdf
They'll be in ported boxes, either MTM or TMM or even a 2.5-way TMW, so the centre-to-centre distance will be of the order of 300mm between any given drive unit.
The midbasses appear to have something going on just over 2kHz, probably cone breakup, so I'd like to aim for a 1kHz crossover, maybe lower. This puts me right in the 1.4" CD area. I'd like to spend a reasonable amount of money on some new CDs and horns, since the midbasses are rather nice. I like the looks of these horns, since they come with a variety of exit angles all with the same cutout - for long narrow rooms, I could swap to a 60x60 horn with minimal work.
Art (Weltersys) has reported very good results using a Celestion CDX14-3050, which is a 3" titanium diaphragm compression driver that uses ferrofluid. I find the use of ferrofluid a little off-putting, since diaphragm replacement would be messy, and ferrofluid can degrade over longer periods of time.
However, there are other solid contenders around the same price point:
- Faital HF144: polymer 2.5" diaphragm, well-regarded online, around 20% cheaper.
- RCF ND640: titanium 2.5" diaphragm, claims to match well to the horns I'll likely be using.
- I can also get the top-end RCF ND3030-T3 for a similar price to the Celestion. 3" titanium diaphragm. Looks very nice, but information beyond the manufacturer's datasheet is scarce.
So yes, any opinions on specific drivers, or even "avoid X" would be useful here, as it feels like I'm flailing around in the dark here, having spent around 6 hours reading online.
TIA
Chris
For my PA setup, I'm currently running some Fane Sov. Pro 12-500 midbass drivers in ported cabs with EV DH1a compression drivers on either EV HP64 (60x40) horns, or P.Audio 90x40 horns which don't impress me at all - the angles at the horn throat mean they've lots of diffraction, and the response above 10kHz drops like a stone.
The EV drivers are very very good, but also very heavy for what they are. I'd like to make the switch to something small, cute, and neodymium-based.
I already have the the midbasses for the next iteration, four of these: http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/10FH520/8/10FH520_datasheet_8.pdf
They'll be in ported boxes, either MTM or TMM or even a 2.5-way TMW, so the centre-to-centre distance will be of the order of 300mm between any given drive unit.
The midbasses appear to have something going on just over 2kHz, probably cone breakup, so I'd like to aim for a 1kHz crossover, maybe lower. This puts me right in the 1.4" CD area. I'd like to spend a reasonable amount of money on some new CDs and horns, since the midbasses are rather nice. I like the looks of these horns, since they come with a variety of exit angles all with the same cutout - for long narrow rooms, I could swap to a 60x60 horn with minimal work.
Art (Weltersys) has reported very good results using a Celestion CDX14-3050, which is a 3" titanium diaphragm compression driver that uses ferrofluid. I find the use of ferrofluid a little off-putting, since diaphragm replacement would be messy, and ferrofluid can degrade over longer periods of time.
However, there are other solid contenders around the same price point:
- Faital HF144: polymer 2.5" diaphragm, well-regarded online, around 20% cheaper.
- RCF ND640: titanium 2.5" diaphragm, claims to match well to the horns I'll likely be using.
- I can also get the top-end RCF ND3030-T3 for a similar price to the Celestion. 3" titanium diaphragm. Looks very nice, but information beyond the manufacturer's datasheet is scarce.
So yes, any opinions on specific drivers, or even "avoid X" would be useful here, as it feels like I'm flailing around in the dark here, having spent around 6 hours reading online.
TIA
Chris
This 2in PRV with Nd motor seems very cost effective and a high value. I have not heard this one but the D280Ti that I have is excellent. Very smooth sounding titanium diaphragm.
PRV Audio D3220Ti-Nd 2" Titanium Neodymium Horn Compression Driver 8 Ohm 4-Bolt
PRV Audio D3220Ti-Nd 2" Titanium Neodymium Horn Compression Driver 8 Ohm 4-Bolt
Art Welter did a very comprehensive comparative test looking to replace his DH1A and there is nothing to there that is up to the task. All hail the King of compression drivers the DH1a long live the King.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/212240-high-frequency-compression-driver-evaluation.html
FYI: the extender nose cup which is held on via three large allen head machine screws is removable. This not only makes the DH1A a whole lot lighter but more importantly it shifts the exit size from the nominal 2" (1.94") exit down to 1.4" exit. I have switched from horns to Karlson K-Tubes I use a double cutaway version small easy to make costs almost nothing and I prefer them to large horns.
If you like there is a much smaller version of the DH1A that uses neo magnets called the ND6 see; http://www.proacousticsusa.com/productdetail.php?pId=2350 As you can see it is also a 1.4 inch exit and it uses the same diaphragm as the DH1A (in both 8 and 16 ohm versions) but the ND6 cannot be crossed as low as the DH1A.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/212240-high-frequency-compression-driver-evaluation.html
FYI: the extender nose cup which is held on via three large allen head machine screws is removable. This not only makes the DH1A a whole lot lighter but more importantly it shifts the exit size from the nominal 2" (1.94") exit down to 1.4" exit. I have switched from horns to Karlson K-Tubes I use a double cutaway version small easy to make costs almost nothing and I prefer them to large horns.
If you like there is a much smaller version of the DH1A that uses neo magnets called the ND6 see; http://www.proacousticsusa.com/productdetail.php?pId=2350 As you can see it is also a 1.4 inch exit and it uses the same diaphragm as the DH1A (in both 8 and 16 ohm versions) but the ND6 cannot be crossed as low as the DH1A.
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Faital HF146 and Radian Neo745 were recommended when I asked a prominent U.S. dealer for advice in a similar application.
B&C DE980 looked good in voicecoil magazine. Looked better than the HF144 tested a few years ago. Extended higher, less resonance. Not sure how the HF146 compares.
A RCF 4" diaphram also tested pretty nice. I believe it's the same used in their touring 15" point and shoot box.
I'll mention Ciare as well just because the coax I'm using sounds so damn nice. Their FMJ Daisy got a nice mention from someone here. Not much info on it though.
18 Sound has good stuff as well. Look for youtube videos for KV2 audio.
B&C DE980 looked good in voicecoil magazine. Looked better than the HF144 tested a few years ago. Extended higher, less resonance. Not sure how the HF146 compares.
A RCF 4" diaphram also tested pretty nice. I believe it's the same used in their touring 15" point and shoot box.
I'll mention Ciare as well just because the coax I'm using sounds so damn nice. Their FMJ Daisy got a nice mention from someone here. Not much info on it though.
18 Sound has good stuff as well. Look for youtube videos for KV2 audio.
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I don't think you'll be that happy with the midbasses run that high, and as for compression drivers and horns, it sounds like the horns you have used aren't doing it for you.
..and then there is the size/weight issue.
A different path then?
PHL Audio 1520 (8Ohm)
Transducer Detail | Tymphany
Moray,
That's going a bit far, the B&C DE82 was pretty close and weighs less than half of the DH1A. Had I tested a B&C DE82TN (all titanium diaphragm) rather than the mylar/titanium, the difference would have been closer. There probably are neo drivers the equal or better than the DH1A, but they all were out of my price range at the time, replacing the 10 HF drivers in my Paraline system would have been a big deal for me. Just based on the comparative response curves, I'd think the B&CDE920TN (5.7 lb)or DE980TN(5.5 lb) would be a fine lightweight replacement for the DH1A.
At the time, the weight reduction vs. expense did not seem worth the exchange, but after spending almost $7000.00 on wrist treatments since then, the price for neo to keep the cabinets light weight seems more reasonable, but I only have two SynTripP top cabinets now.
Art
Yep, that's been one of my references. Currently, I suspect I'm not pushing the EVs close to their maximum potential. Last gig I did I think I saw them hit -12dB on a 300w amp, once. That's just under 30w peaks, running an 800Hz crossover to a 12" a side. As you can tell, I simply don't need the capabilities these drivers have. I like that they never ever run out of headroom
My particular drivers don't have the 4-bolt pattern beneath the nose cup, so I'm stuck with the extra weight and a 2" exit. Even so, the magnet structure weighs more than I'd like to be carrying long-term.
The ND6 sounds great, but a quick search suggests they've become unobtainium in recent years.
Scott, what makes you say that about the midbasses?
I rather like the looks of that midrange, and have some suitable 1" drivers around, too. My only problem then would be fabricating a crossover: I try to avoid passive crossovers where I can, in favour of active. Going for a coaxial mid-high would make it a 4-way system, so I'd probably have to attempt a passive XO, otherwise I'd run out of amplifier channels and processing.
Found some data here: https://hifi-selbstbau.de/datenbler...u-62/514-phl-x17-1520-8-ohm-bac-de400tn-8-ohm
However, I'm not convinced it'd give me any more useful extension at the top of the midrange to cross to a smaller tweeter: there's something nasty happening at 3kHz, so I'd want to go to 2kHz or lower, with the reviewer recommending a steep 1.5kHz crossover.
It seems that B&C speakers are generally very expensive in the UK: the DE920TN comes in over 3x the price of the HF144, so it looks like I'm staying with RCF, Faital, or maybe Oberton.
Cheers, all.
Chris
Anything past the point of a driver's pistonic region is a "gamble". And with larger drivers it usually means a "thickening" and loss of detail, not to mention the increasingly directive nature of the driver. Still, no need to speculate when you have the drivers already - try it out and see how you like run that high in freq..
IMO that mid driver needs a 1" exit that is capable of extending low in freq. as the author recommends. Some of your drivers might well be able to do so - again it's something you can always try with a cheap low-depth conical waveguide. The Tymphany was a potential solution for not much money that also has relatively high freq. extension (..which you mentioned was desirable).
You could easily add a minidsp to your current setup, where you are just using it for the compression driver and add any amp you wanted to that, even something as cheap as a T-amp. Any treble tonal aberrations could be handled via eq. with the minidsp.
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The RCF ND640 looks like the best value from the Blue Aran catalog. Doesn't hurt that you plan on using RCF horns as well.
I doubt any high quality driver from reputable brands will dissapoint.
I doubt any high quality driver from reputable brands will dissapoint.
Scott,
I suspect that I'd need more power than a T-amp will provide for a compression driver - even the efficient DH1a is taking 10s of watts. Its cheaper over here to grab another DCX2496 than a miniDSP.
The PDF for the 10"s is here: http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/10FH520/8/10FH520_datasheet_8.pdf
They have some break-up at 2.5kHz by the looks of the published graphs, but I think I'd get away with a 1.5kHz crossover - the 45 degree off-axis isn't that far off the on-axis response. That being the case, I'm not sure a 6" mid is needed to go between 10"s and CDs.
Given I'd need more processing and amplifier channels, I'm not sure the 6" mid would be cost effective here.
I'll give the 10"s a try and see how they do through the midrange.
With the more expensive RCF driver, the ND3030, I'd get a 3" diaphragm and have the option to drop as low as 500Hz. The 2.5" diaphragms seem to stop around 700Hz.
I think you're right, Ernie, that the ND640 looks the best value. The question is if I want to spend half again to get the nicer one for an extra couple of hundred Hz at the bottom end and a little more clean output. 3" diaphragms have around 1.5 times the area of the 2.5" ones, which is 3.5dB more output for the same excursion.
Decisions, decisions...
Chris
I suspect that I'd need more power than a T-amp will provide for a compression driver - even the efficient DH1a is taking 10s of watts. Its cheaper over here to grab another DCX2496 than a miniDSP.
The PDF for the 10"s is here: http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/10FH520/8/10FH520_datasheet_8.pdf
They have some break-up at 2.5kHz by the looks of the published graphs, but I think I'd get away with a 1.5kHz crossover - the 45 degree off-axis isn't that far off the on-axis response. That being the case, I'm not sure a 6" mid is needed to go between 10"s and CDs.
Given I'd need more processing and amplifier channels, I'm not sure the 6" mid would be cost effective here.
I'll give the 10"s a try and see how they do through the midrange.
With the more expensive RCF driver, the ND3030, I'd get a 3" diaphragm and have the option to drop as low as 500Hz. The 2.5" diaphragms seem to stop around 700Hz.
I think you're right, Ernie, that the ND640 looks the best value. The question is if I want to spend half again to get the nicer one for an extra couple of hundred Hz at the bottom end and a little more clean output. 3" diaphragms have around 1.5 times the area of the 2.5" ones, which is 3.5dB more output for the same excursion.
Decisions, decisions...
Chris
Unless you are using the speakers for sound reinforcement, or are "padding" them down severely, you should not be needing anywhere near 10 watts, and actually 1 watt should be a rare occurrence for most domestic listening. Even the little battery operated T-Amp should be more than enough (including large dynamic peaks).
-the minidsp 2x4 should be about 50 pounds - you might get hit with VAT depending on shipping method (..though technically you should be paying this), but you won't have any import duty (unless the shipping is crazy). You can get a generic "wall-wart" power supply in the UK. After that it's just shipping - and that shouldn't be that bad. If the total is more than 80 pounds (sans power supply) I'd be surprised. (Note that the power supply should be really inexpensive.) The Behringer looks like its a bit less than 200 pounds + VAT. So there should be a rather large difference in price between these two items for you. 😉
Note: a cheap T-Amp should be very inexpensive as well - less than the minidsp. The result should also be better than what the Beringer can provide.
The directivity of the faital pro driver isn't bad, but the linearity isn't very good and more importantly it's "pushing" 50 grams with a stiff surround - it won't even come close to being comparable to the PHL mid. When loaded properly the PHL should give you a lot of depth (and hall sound) after it's been used a bit. The faital pro driver might give you decent depth, but only as a result of its poor linearity (..upper mid lower treble "dip" - dependent on the baffle of course). That's a guess of course, but it is based on a fair bit of experience.
Hi,
As I said in my first post, this is for my PA system.
I haven't checked miniDSP for a while, but the last time I did, import duties would get silly.
Chris
As I said in my first post, this is for my PA system.
I haven't checked miniDSP for a while, but the last time I did, import duties would get silly.
Chris
I totally missed that.
Shouldn't be any import duties if it's less than 135 pounds. Kind of moot though considering your application. 😱
This horn should do 1.2 kHz at a smaller size (1" exit), which should work with your faital pro 10":
RCF - H100
-try the 1" exit drivers you have. If you really want a new driver then look at the polymer diaphragm drivers (which are generally more "stable" higher in freq.). Celestion has some nice drivers for not a lot of cash.
Helmuth has used the RCF horn:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ion-mid-h-f-range-drivers-13.html#post2838783
..could always try to contact him for more info..
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Crossed low in RCF PA I read somewhere.
Meas. in b&c me90: http://www.prodance.cz/files/dl/9/17648/RCF_ND940.pdf
3030 to compare: http://www.prodance.cz/protokoly/cd3030t3_me90.pdf
Meas. in b&c me90: http://www.prodance.cz/files/dl/9/17648/RCF_ND940.pdf
3030 to compare: http://www.prodance.cz/protokoly/cd3030t3_me90.pdf
The 4" RCF looks interesting. Smoother in the last octave than the ND3030, but clearly more energy storage - it rings for a while.
Would open up an easy 500Hz crossover, though, which means lots of space to play around with directivity matching, and keeping the Faitals in their pistonic region.
The 1"s I have here are Das M3s, which is a 1.75" diaphragm that's apparently good down to 1kHz. I'd expect it to be excursion limited when trying to run that low at any SPL, though. They're usually used down to 2kHz. They're 35w rated, though, which says to me that they'll be running close to maximum capacity at the volume needed. The EVs were nudging past the -12dB light on an NU3k, which is between 30 and 75w/ch (which would be the -6dB light). Since the EVs are considerably more efficient, I'd expect the Das CDs to fail if used for hours at a time at that volume.
So yes, I'm looking for a nice middle ground.
Summary so far, in order of ascending price
- RCF ND640 represents good value for money
- Faital HF144 is a known-good, probably with the smoothest top octave here.
- RCF ND940 will cross very low, keeping the 10"s running at their best.
- RCF ND3030 will go almost as low, but with a less energy storage in the top end.
- B&C drivers are horrendously expensive here.
Flaesh, thanks for posting those measurements. I think I'm leaning towards the ND940 now, since both show 10s of cycles of ringing above 10kHz.
Chris
Would open up an easy 500Hz crossover, though, which means lots of space to play around with directivity matching, and keeping the Faitals in their pistonic region.
The 1"s I have here are Das M3s, which is a 1.75" diaphragm that's apparently good down to 1kHz. I'd expect it to be excursion limited when trying to run that low at any SPL, though. They're usually used down to 2kHz. They're 35w rated, though, which says to me that they'll be running close to maximum capacity at the volume needed. The EVs were nudging past the -12dB light on an NU3k, which is between 30 and 75w/ch (which would be the -6dB light). Since the EVs are considerably more efficient, I'd expect the Das CDs to fail if used for hours at a time at that volume.
So yes, I'm looking for a nice middle ground.
Summary so far, in order of ascending price
- RCF ND640 represents good value for money
- Faital HF144 is a known-good, probably with the smoothest top octave here.
- RCF ND940 will cross very low, keeping the 10"s running at their best.
- RCF ND3030 will go almost as low, but with a less energy storage in the top end.
- B&C drivers are horrendously expensive here.
Flaesh, thanks for posting those measurements. I think I'm leaning towards the ND940 now, since both show 10s of cycles of ringing above 10kHz.
Chris
There are a lot of measurements at prodance.cz 🙂.
I don't know does they ship overseas. Sent request one time and havn't an answer..
Most of 1.4" drivers tested in the small B&C ME90 - good for comparison but not saying a lot about <1k.
"Altra novità di ART 745-A è il nuovo driver a compressione ND 940, con il quale si ottiene un formato di compressione esteso, mentre il driver da 4” permette un punto di crossover di 650Hz, .." 🙄 ( La nuova ART-745 by RCF | ZioGiorgio.it )
I don't know does they ship overseas. Sent request one time and havn't an answer..
Most of 1.4" drivers tested in the small B&C ME90 - good for comparison but not saying a lot about <1k.
"Altra novità di ART 745-A è il nuovo driver a compressione ND 940, con il quale si ottiene un formato di compressione esteso, mentre il driver da 4” permette un punto di crossover di 650Hz, .." 🙄 ( La nuova ART-745 by RCF | ZioGiorgio.it )
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