I see nothing wrong with 18L reflex here. Here's the drivers:
https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1415/es180tia-8-7-esoteric-series-woofer-8-ohm
https://sbacoustics.com/product/sb26stwgc-4-fabric/
All looks straightforward enough to me... it is almost a Morel style woofer but glass fibre with a 3" voicecoil and effectively a 3" dome, which will fall apart at 5kHz in a big way.
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1455368-dayton-esoteric-es180tia-8
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/premios/
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/clarino/
Your bass coil is way too small, and bass capacitor too big. And a 5kHz tank notch is used in the Clarino to deal with the woofer breakup, but you must convert the 4 ohm bass circuit to 8 ohms.
The Premios uses a steeper 3rd order bass with an approx 2kHz presence notch.
Third order tweeter seems a good idea with a lowish 2kHz crossover. Simulation indicated. You must also allow for the shallow waveguide.
Best regards from Steve in Southsea, UK.
https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1415/es180tia-8-7-esoteric-series-woofer-8-ohm
https://sbacoustics.com/product/sb26stwgc-4-fabric/
All looks straightforward enough to me... it is almost a Morel style woofer but glass fibre with a 3" voicecoil and effectively a 3" dome, which will fall apart at 5kHz in a big way.
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1455368-dayton-esoteric-es180tia-8
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/premios/
https://projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/clarino/
Your bass coil is way too small, and bass capacitor too big. And a 5kHz tank notch is used in the Clarino to deal with the woofer breakup, but you must convert the 4 ohm bass circuit to 8 ohms.
The Premios uses a steeper 3rd order bass with an approx 2kHz presence notch.
Third order tweeter seems a good idea with a lowish 2kHz crossover. Simulation indicated. You must also allow for the shallow waveguide.
Best regards from Steve in Southsea, UK.
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As Steve writes, your crossover is way off. Your bass tuning as closed box, too, -3dB at 60Hz and -10dB at 30Hz. This driver doesn’t do full range in a closed box btw. Bringing the volume down to 10 liter brings you nothing wrt bass behavior.
So no wonder it doesn’t sound right. At 18 liter, you just have to port it. A 5cm diagonal and 22cm long port gives a good tuning. Your port wasn’t far off, but 4cm is just too small with a 7” driver. As for ‘boomy’, that was your room you were listening to for sure. Standing waves building up and cluttering the low range. As with every speaker, but good placement is quintessential and even then…
So no wonder it doesn’t sound right. At 18 liter, you just have to port it. A 5cm diagonal and 22cm long port gives a good tuning. Your port wasn’t far off, but 4cm is just too small with a 7” driver. As for ‘boomy’, that was your room you were listening to for sure. Standing waves building up and cluttering the low range. As with every speaker, but good placement is quintessential and even then…
I decreased enclosure size to 9l and it didn't helped tried different configurations as well as wiring only woofer. This driver just sucks for me in terms of sound performance. I have to be more careful next time I guess. Thank you all for help
I also usually wire them with sub and cross them at 80hz which is usual theater setup. I might try do another crossover soon to fix other issues but its getting a bit annoying especially that my previous speakers with scan speak and hivi worked flawlessly although I went a bit small size back then.
Just for the info I did try different tweeter resistance before but It sounded to harash so I wanted to mute it bit more. I now have 2R+coil in the end of the chain to smooth of the bump in tweeter boost later on.
When you tried the woofer only, was it without xo, directly to the amp?
In your measurements in post #1 (green line), I see several dB dip between 700 and 2000Hz which explains weak midrange. That looks like xo issue, driver datasheet shows fairly well balanced response.
What kind of amp are you using?
Woofer has Qms/Qes ratio of over 10 times. Such drivers are more dependant on electric damping. If amp has high output resistance, it may result in poorly controled cone excursion, giving boomy bass and smudged midrange.
Tweeter has a waveguide and its much higher sensitivity than woofer. That allows much lower xo point, and I would go around 1500Hz, maybe even lower.
And I also think your xo is poorly executed, as noted by others.
In your measurements in post #1 (green line), I see several dB dip between 700 and 2000Hz which explains weak midrange. That looks like xo issue, driver datasheet shows fairly well balanced response.
What kind of amp are you using?
Woofer has Qms/Qes ratio of over 10 times. Such drivers are more dependant on electric damping. If amp has high output resistance, it may result in poorly controled cone excursion, giving boomy bass and smudged midrange.
Tweeter has a waveguide and its much higher sensitivity than woofer. That allows much lower xo point, and I would go around 1500Hz, maybe even lower.
And I also think your xo is poorly executed, as noted by others.
Usually a perceived lack of bass comes about from a general lack of bafflestep compensation. Although it's also possible that expectations were unreasonably high and the bass is just typical rather than blowing you away.
The drivers are highly capable but like any speakers they need a good crossover to sound good.
A 6.5" driver is unlikely to ever blow you away with bass unless it's specifically designed to go low, in big ported cabinets, like some scan-speaks are. It's even less likely to blow you away in a sealed cabinet although it will sound good.
The drivers are highly capable but like any speakers they need a good crossover to sound good.
A 6.5" driver is unlikely to ever blow you away with bass unless it's specifically designed to go low, in big ported cabinets, like some scan-speaks are. It's even less likely to blow you away in a sealed cabinet although it will sound good.
But he is using the sub...how can this be an issue with midbass/tweeter bookshelf?
Maybe simple fr response measurement would be helpful. Without measuring and real data, all is guesswork.
Maybe simple fr response measurement would be helpful. Without measuring and real data, all is guesswork.
I was right, no tweeter!
You have no response above 6kHz, why?
This must sound boring.
Except room modes, there should be enough bass.
You have no response above 6kHz, why?
This must sound boring.
Except room modes, there should be enough bass.
Oh my god... This is a graph without crossover... As other people informed me to show it. I do have highs to 20khz if Im going through crossover and have tweeter connected as on previous graphs.
There is a lot wrong in that crossover, you pad the tweeter way to much, cross to high (should be arround 1500Hz 2nd order or higher) and the woofer filter is a bit asking for problemwi with the two cabs in parallel. If you want I can make a fast go on a crossover that should be much better as example, if you send me the files and the layout of the front of the cabinet (mainly distance between tweeter and woofer andd baffle width). But i mainly guess you need to read a lot more about how to design a crossover and what your target should be.
This choice of Dayton driver on paper is very doable if approached within its strengths. A sealed enclosure seems a non-started, the Efficiency bandwidth Product is pointing towards a ported enclosure.
The big bugaboo is the 85 or so Dbs. worth of sensitivity...this driver is going to eat wattage like crazy.
Plugging in the values on the SIMS, they crank out the safe conservative values. By my re-working/retuning, I get Thirty-Two liter volume, an fb of Thirty-one point seven Hertz. This extends the bottom end thus ...-3 Db. @ 28.94 Htz.
The port is tricky at 75mm diameter, and 350mm long.
--------------------------------------------------Rick...
The big bugaboo is the 85 or so Dbs. worth of sensitivity...this driver is going to eat wattage like crazy.
Plugging in the values on the SIMS, they crank out the safe conservative values. By my re-working/retuning, I get Thirty-Two liter volume, an fb of Thirty-one point seven Hertz. This extends the bottom end thus ...-3 Db. @ 28.94 Htz.
The port is tricky at 75mm diameter, and 350mm long.
--------------------------------------------------Rick...
I'll freely admit crossovers, to me, are a bit of a black-art ...& I'll gladly use a pre-built version. Within this context, you're gonna have a tough time finding a tweeter anywhere near that 85 Db. rated woofer. Granted a common 92 Db. tweeter can be used ...but knocking down seven Dbs. worth will be difficult to design...of course a straight-forward L-pad would work OK.
Dunno...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
Dunno...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
@wadimek11 Still need to measure and post impedance of woofer without crossover, and frequency response and impedance of tweeter without crossover.
Black art? It isn’t even rocket science. But at TS: what is your setup? I mean, speakers against front wall? It seems like a baffle step isn’t very present. And you’re certainly experiencing the room. If your measurement is correct, it ain’t that bad. Combined with a sub, a closed box of about 10 liters would be OK, maybe even a smaller one. But all in all no reason why this would not be a mission with success. So where is the problem?
OK - run the sweep with only the tweeter but incl. its x-over.
Bass - did you try reversing the phase on the sub?
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Bass - did you try reversing the phase on the sub?
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The sub is acutally flat to 30hz and response is alright to 120hz if I cross it right. What I dont like is how those drivers start to sound in the enclosure. They sound weirdly slow and unresponsive. It worked fine in open baffle but now it just doesnt sound high end at all just average at best in the sealed enclosure. At this stage they wont compete even with some speakers from midrange shelf like focal arias 906 which was one of my previous speakers. I dont think its just the bass thing but entire low to midrange range. I do have my speakers around 10cm from the wall which makes driver around 40cm from the wall, I can move them freely but It doesnt fix their sound.