Hey Guys;
I'm new at this, so forgive my ignorance.
I have an intresting story. You see, in 1984, I was playing music in a band and stopped playing and decided to sell my gear and purchase Hi Fi stereo and listen rather than play. So I tried to get the best for my ears. I purchased an amp Nad 2200 and all the other components, and a set of Kef 104/2. Boy I love the sound.
A short while I had my system, I started to have trouble when I open the throtle higher. My amp fell into "soft clipping" and switch back to normal after a second or two. It was getting very anoying and I wasn't too happy about it, so I went to the area where I purchased it to let them look at it.
They checked it and told me that there wasn't anything wrong. So I brought it back home. Same thing happened. I brought it back and this time they told me to purchase another amp and run each speaker with it's own amp. So I purchased another Nad 2200. The sound was pretty awsome, but same thing, after it warms up, and I open the throtle for more power, both amps, falls into "soft clipping" at the same time and resets themselves at the same time.
So, I called my sales person and told him this. He told me to not drive it too loud. Anyway, I used them like this for about a month and then my speakers started to sound awfull. I brought them to my sales person and they looked at them and told me that the tweeters were burned. They installed two new ones. They sounded great; (for a short while). They both burned again. Now I have two amps that always falls into soft clipping and two speakers that sound like a tin can. Again I brought my speakers to my sales person, and they suggested me to use another set and plug them in parralelle with the amps. So I purchased another set of Kef 104/2 and hooked them like he told me. "Guess what?"
You guys probably know this, but my amps stills fall into "soft clipping" and believe me, this time I burnt three nice t-33's. It is starting to cost me a lot.
Now I have four great speakers, two nice amps, but can't listen to it and I don't have any sources to get anymore tweeters for repairing my speakers. I sure would love if someone could guide me through the process in repairing this mess, as I called dozens of repair persons all over the nation and I even studied electronics to try to figure out what was happening and I went to various internet sites to get information with absolutly no valuble help. It seems hopeless.
This problem has been stretched for the last 23 years and I never had the pleasure to listen to a decent stereo. I believe that my amps are 8 ohms and my kef's are 4.
I don't want to get rid of it, because if I ever get it to run right, it would be like a high performance hotrod. Cheers my friends.
I'm new at this, so forgive my ignorance.
I have an intresting story. You see, in 1984, I was playing music in a band and stopped playing and decided to sell my gear and purchase Hi Fi stereo and listen rather than play. So I tried to get the best for my ears. I purchased an amp Nad 2200 and all the other components, and a set of Kef 104/2. Boy I love the sound.
A short while I had my system, I started to have trouble when I open the throtle higher. My amp fell into "soft clipping" and switch back to normal after a second or two. It was getting very anoying and I wasn't too happy about it, so I went to the area where I purchased it to let them look at it.
They checked it and told me that there wasn't anything wrong. So I brought it back home. Same thing happened. I brought it back and this time they told me to purchase another amp and run each speaker with it's own amp. So I purchased another Nad 2200. The sound was pretty awsome, but same thing, after it warms up, and I open the throtle for more power, both amps, falls into "soft clipping" at the same time and resets themselves at the same time.
So, I called my sales person and told him this. He told me to not drive it too loud. Anyway, I used them like this for about a month and then my speakers started to sound awfull. I brought them to my sales person and they looked at them and told me that the tweeters were burned. They installed two new ones. They sounded great; (for a short while). They both burned again. Now I have two amps that always falls into soft clipping and two speakers that sound like a tin can. Again I brought my speakers to my sales person, and they suggested me to use another set and plug them in parralelle with the amps. So I purchased another set of Kef 104/2 and hooked them like he told me. "Guess what?"
You guys probably know this, but my amps stills fall into "soft clipping" and believe me, this time I burnt three nice t-33's. It is starting to cost me a lot.
Now I have four great speakers, two nice amps, but can't listen to it and I don't have any sources to get anymore tweeters for repairing my speakers. I sure would love if someone could guide me through the process in repairing this mess, as I called dozens of repair persons all over the nation and I even studied electronics to try to figure out what was happening and I went to various internet sites to get information with absolutly no valuble help. It seems hopeless.
This problem has been stretched for the last 23 years and I never had the pleasure to listen to a decent stereo. I believe that my amps are 8 ohms and my kef's are 4.
I don't want to get rid of it, because if I ever get it to run right, it would be like a high performance hotrod. Cheers my friends.
I sold both NAD and KEF in the mid 80s.
The 2200 is way too much power for the 104/2, and the 104/2 tweeter is a bit fragile anyway.
Dump the pair of NAD and get a single McIntosh MC2200. It can drive 2 ohms (which is what both pair of your KEF end up being), sounds better, and won't blow anything up. You should be able to turn up an MC2200 at an estate sale in Florida for a reasonable amount.
The 2200 is way too much power for the 104/2, and the 104/2 tweeter is a bit fragile anyway.
Dump the pair of NAD and get a single McIntosh MC2200. It can drive 2 ohms (which is what both pair of your KEF end up being), sounds better, and won't blow anything up. You should be able to turn up an MC2200 at an estate sale in Florida for a reasonable amount.
Hmmm.........
circa 1KW per channel and 2 pairs of 92dB/W speakers.
You wouldn't be hard of hearing by any chance would you ?
One 2200 and one pair of Kef 104/2 would suit most people just fine.
You seem to be one of those people who like it too loud. You turn
it up, your ears get used to it, so you turn it some more, your ears
get used to it, so you turn it up some more, something has to give.
(In the long run it will be your hearing if you have a very loud system.)
Find a high quality listening room, low ambient noise, very good room
acoustics. As long as the room is not too large one 2200 and one pair
of 104/2 should be fine. Get used to realistic listening levels.
🙂/sreten.
circa 1KW per channel and 2 pairs of 92dB/W speakers.
You wouldn't be hard of hearing by any chance would you ?
One 2200 and one pair of Kef 104/2 would suit most people just fine.
You seem to be one of those people who like it too loud. You turn
it up, your ears get used to it, so you turn it some more, your ears
get used to it, so you turn it up some more, something has to give.
(In the long run it will be your hearing if you have a very loud system.)
Find a high quality listening room, low ambient noise, very good room
acoustics. As long as the room is not too large one 2200 and one pair
of 104/2 should be fine. Get used to realistic listening levels.
🙂/sreten.
For troubleshooting I would play a test tone through the system and measure the voltage being applied. I suggest 50-60Hz. P=(V^2)/R will give you the output power. For listening to music about 20dB of headroom is what has been suggested.
Myself excluding the subwoofer I use only up to about 5w and thats with an 82db sensitivity.
Myself excluding the subwoofer I use only up to about 5w and thats with an 82db sensitivity.
A pair of KEF 104/2 can go pretty loud - more than what most will ever want to sustain. Do you have an extremely large room?
I find it hard to believe that the tweeters would blow (agreed, KEF tweeters are fragile) without the bass drivers bottoming out first (or the crossover capacitors giving up the ghost).
Cheers!
I find it hard to believe that the tweeters would blow (agreed, KEF tweeters are fragile) without the bass drivers bottoming out first (or the crossover capacitors giving up the ghost).
Cheers!
burnedfingers said:
I'd bet that the T33 is good enough so that using such an approach would seriously drop its performance. The additional resistance of the bulb would also throw the crossover frequency off...
Cheers
For to save the tweeters connecting a light bulb in series.
(after crossover) try a car bulb of 12V 5W or 10W.
a light bulb works as a PTC Resistor 🙂
(after crossover) try a car bulb of 12V 5W or 10W.
a light bulb works as a PTC Resistor 🙂
Nad 2200 Blows up my Tweeters.
Hey, thanks all you guys for your help.
I really don't want to get rid of my 2200's, I think that it is not normal to purchase something and doesn't work as it suppose to.
Saywe have a car and the electronic injection was wrong with it, do we need to change the car?
I am not hard of hearing, this system was like this when I purchased it 23 years ago, 23 years ago I was 23 years younger and heard the same thing.
There must be something wrong as my speaker tweeters burns. I think that I don't listen to my systen too loud, I have friends that drives their JVC much much higher than mine and been doing this in parties for years with no problems, and they paid about 25 times less money for it.
When I blow up my tweeters, the amp is at (3), and I never drove my amps over (4), you are right guys, in saying that music needs to be heard in an acoustical manner, but, when I want to hear the snapping punch of a snare drum hitting, I really need to feel it and while the bass drums are pounding, at the same time a small litte bell is ringing, I want to hear it also crisp and clear.
Here is what I tried in the two decades I went through.
I tried to hook my speakers in duel parrarlelle, no, difference, can't drive more than (3), then I hooked duel speaker in series to each amp, again, no difference, can't drive more than(3) and I blew two more tweeters.
Hey, (ocool_15), you seem to have a way to make a test. I would really appreciated if you can guide me with details. Please, I am no proffessional in electronics, just a bit handy.
Cheers my friends.
Hey, thanks all you guys for your help.
I really don't want to get rid of my 2200's, I think that it is not normal to purchase something and doesn't work as it suppose to.
Saywe have a car and the electronic injection was wrong with it, do we need to change the car?
I am not hard of hearing, this system was like this when I purchased it 23 years ago, 23 years ago I was 23 years younger and heard the same thing.
There must be something wrong as my speaker tweeters burns. I think that I don't listen to my systen too loud, I have friends that drives their JVC much much higher than mine and been doing this in parties for years with no problems, and they paid about 25 times less money for it.
When I blow up my tweeters, the amp is at (3), and I never drove my amps over (4), you are right guys, in saying that music needs to be heard in an acoustical manner, but, when I want to hear the snapping punch of a snare drum hitting, I really need to feel it and while the bass drums are pounding, at the same time a small litte bell is ringing, I want to hear it also crisp and clear.
Here is what I tried in the two decades I went through.
I tried to hook my speakers in duel parrarlelle, no, difference, can't drive more than (3), then I hooked duel speaker in series to each amp, again, no difference, can't drive more than(3) and I blew two more tweeters.
Hey, (ocool_15), you seem to have a way to make a test. I would really appreciated if you can guide me with details. Please, I am no proffessional in electronics, just a bit handy.
Cheers my friends.
104s deserve better than crabby NAD2200s.
But i actually only came overhere to see beautifull HEMIspherical pics.
NAD is like a Ford, get a Mopar
But i actually only came overhere to see beautifull HEMIspherical pics.
NAD is like a Ford, get a Mopar
Same story, cheaper gear - 1977
I'll only offer this as my personal experience during the late 1970s with a Marantz 1060 integrated amplifier and an original pair of Bose
301 speakers. 30 watts per channel RMS should never have harmed the Bose 301's, but their tweeters would fry at the drop of a hat. Bose officially blamed it on my amplifier clipping but replaced the tweeters under warranty anyway. Before the second series of 301s came out, Bose were retrofitting a small 12VDC lamp between the crossover and the tweeter to do exactly what burnedfingers suggested: limit the current delivered to the tweeter and take the brunt of any DC resulting from amplifier clipping.
In other words, I've felt your pain, albeit it with much less expensive gear and 30 years ago. You have my empathy.
I'll only offer this as my personal experience during the late 1970s with a Marantz 1060 integrated amplifier and an original pair of Bose
301 speakers. 30 watts per channel RMS should never have harmed the Bose 301's, but their tweeters would fry at the drop of a hat. Bose officially blamed it on my amplifier clipping but replaced the tweeters under warranty anyway. Before the second series of 301s came out, Bose were retrofitting a small 12VDC lamp between the crossover and the tweeter to do exactly what burnedfingers suggested: limit the current delivered to the tweeter and take the brunt of any DC resulting from amplifier clipping.In other words, I've felt your pain, albeit it with much less expensive gear and 30 years ago. You have my empathy.
Re: Nad 2200 Blows up my Tweeters.
As an indicator all you need is a test tone from the computer or on a disc(commonly found on Bass or car spl test discs), a voltmeter(Digital recommended).
Play a tone around 50-60Hz and measure the voltage applied to the speaker. P=V^2/R or Power = Voltage Measured/ Speaker impedence.
This is a quick way and you could improve your accuracy by finding the actual impedence at the test tone frequency.
I looked at some pics of the speaker described and would wonder if they are intended as a D'appolito configuration. If you just need to improve power handling of the tweeter I would look at changing the crossover. If you can discrible the current crossover or better yet post a schematic I could give you some pointers as to where to start.
Hemiguy said:
As an indicator all you need is a test tone from the computer or on a disc(commonly found on Bass or car spl test discs), a voltmeter(Digital recommended).
Play a tone around 50-60Hz and measure the voltage applied to the speaker. P=V^2/R or Power = Voltage Measured/ Speaker impedence.
This is a quick way and you could improve your accuracy by finding the actual impedence at the test tone frequency.
I looked at some pics of the speaker described and would wonder if they are intended as a D'appolito configuration. If you just need to improve power handling of the tweeter I would look at changing the crossover. If you can discrible the current crossover or better yet post a schematic I could give you some pointers as to where to start.
Re: Nad 2200 Blows up my Tweeters.
the answer -
dont get rid of your 2200
the Gods (most likely mercury) want you to build your own amp's
start here-
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8
Hemiguy said:
the answer -
dont get rid of your 2200
the Gods (most likely mercury) want you to build your own amp's
start here-
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8
My Nad 2200 blows up my tweeters 3
Hi all my friends.
I am going to try to install that 12 v light into my circut, biy I still don't understand why my amps fall into clipping all the time I open the volume to 3 .
I do appreciate all your help, best help in years.
I'll be in contact soon to let you know the results. I will need to find 3 more tweeters (t-33's) at first.
Thanks again.
Hi all my friends.
I am going to try to install that 12 v light into my circut, biy I still don't understand why my amps fall into clipping all the time I open the volume to 3 .
I do appreciate all your help, best help in years.
I'll be in contact soon to let you know the results. I will need to find 3 more tweeters (t-33's) at first.
Thanks again.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Could one of the capacitors in the tweeter section of the crossover have shorted? Or perhaps you've been getting "dried out" T33s (ferrofluid)...
Cheers
Cheers
Like I posted before.... Why not put a small light bulb in series with the high frequency output to the tweeter? This is after the crossover of course. Very simple and inexpensive procedure that I use all the time in large format systems.
I use a larger bulb to limit the wattage to 60 watt high frequency drivers because the light turns on limiting the power to the speaker at 60 watts and therefore I don't have to tear down a driver,clean the burned spent remains out and sell them an expensive new part.
Gentlemen this is a very simple procedure here because you pick a bulb that will turn on at the tweeter's rated limit. No complex measurements needed here because it isn't going to change the frequency output or pattern of the tweeter. I've done the measurements in the past.
Yes, the tweeter is fragile and needs to be protected as long as concert levels will be played thru the system. Personally, I don't believe that you and your hearing will be buddies for too much longer if you continue the way you are headed. I would start to question your equipment if you cannot be satisfied with lower levels. I personally beileve the true mark of a system is if it sounds good at both low and higher levels.
Good Luck as always
I use a larger bulb to limit the wattage to 60 watt high frequency drivers because the light turns on limiting the power to the speaker at 60 watts and therefore I don't have to tear down a driver,clean the burned spent remains out and sell them an expensive new part.
Gentlemen this is a very simple procedure here because you pick a bulb that will turn on at the tweeter's rated limit. No complex measurements needed here because it isn't going to change the frequency output or pattern of the tweeter. I've done the measurements in the past.
Yes, the tweeter is fragile and needs to be protected as long as concert levels will be played thru the system. Personally, I don't believe that you and your hearing will be buddies for too much longer if you continue the way you are headed. I would start to question your equipment if you cannot be satisfied with lower levels. I personally beileve the true mark of a system is if it sounds good at both low and higher levels.
Good Luck as always
Well, first of all the bulb needs to be sized correctly to turn on just slightly before the wattage rating of the tweeter is reached.
Secondly, signal determines when an amplifier clips not the respective volume control setting. Signal and load to be more correct. Do not rely on the control setting here because the higher the signal into the preamp section the more out. This is a slimmed down answer here. Running a load of 4 ohms will tax an amplifier harder than a 8 ohm load will and thus clipping will come quicker.
Member
Joined 2002
The Nad 2200 is a strong amplifier. I bet it is clipping at some frequency. Mine was and was killing tweeters. the amp was rebuilt and still used. I traded my dad the 2200 for a Phase-Linear 400 amplifier. Miss them both of corse. Its a good amp i would not sell it. Maybe use it to power subwoofers or something. I used it for many reason's Even to power some 15 watt speakers and never blew them up either.
Jase
Jase
Tweeters
Hi:
Have you used the same wires for all these speaker changes? If so try speaker wire of a different configuration. Certain amps will oscillate at higher levels with a particular type of speaker cable.
Do you know anyone , or do you have an oscilloscope? Try hooking it across the tweeter itself or the amp speaker terminals to see if there is any sign of oscillation. This WILL fry a tweeter fast.
Even try some generic 14 ga power cord to see if that fixes the prob. Hey , it is worth the try.
Hope this helps
Edward Lipman
Hi:
Have you used the same wires for all these speaker changes? If so try speaker wire of a different configuration. Certain amps will oscillate at higher levels with a particular type of speaker cable.
Do you know anyone , or do you have an oscilloscope? Try hooking it across the tweeter itself or the amp speaker terminals to see if there is any sign of oscillation. This WILL fry a tweeter fast.
Even try some generic 14 ga power cord to see if that fixes the prob. Hey , it is worth the try.
Hope this helps
Edward Lipman
Re: Nad 2200 Blows up my Tweeters.
I think a better analogy would be having a car and thrashing the balls off it, then wondering why the engines keep blowing! - or why is that turbo a heap of molten metal?.
As your amps are even indicating they are clipping, you are driving them far too loud - if the volume is only at 3, then the input signal to the amp is MUCH too large!.
From the sound of things you like it REALLY loud, I would suggest getting much higher rated speakers, and a much bigger amp - over driving an amp is always bad news!.
Hemiguy said:
I think a better analogy would be having a car and thrashing the balls off it, then wondering why the engines keep blowing! - or why is that turbo a heap of molten metal?.
As your amps are even indicating they are clipping, you are driving them far too loud - if the volume is only at 3, then the input signal to the amp is MUCH too large!.
From the sound of things you like it REALLY loud, I would suggest getting much higher rated speakers, and a much bigger amp - over driving an amp is always bad news!.
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