No mention of tonality.Most people will have strong preferences for speakers based on tonal preferences.When musicians select instruments or amps it is all about tone ,timbre and dynamics.Which makes recommending speakers based on your own preferences pretty pointless.Especially if those preferences are influenced by how they measure.That could well become a case of the tail starting to wag the dog.
Yes U R right ... my tail feels so bad from moving that chubby lumberjack I am round and round all night longing for more 🙂
DIY is well known for such cases of overloads so be warned better stay off!
Now lets have a little dance tune :
DIY is well known for such cases of overloads so be warned better stay off!
Now lets have a little dance tune :
It depends on ones objectives. I would disagree that most people have a strong preference for coloured speakers and recall some of Harman's research confirming that most, whether audiophiles or not, prefer neutral speakers. Apologies for not having the reference to hand. Anyone? Creating music and listening to created music have different objectives when it comes to speakers. Erin would seem to be implicitly seeking neutral speakers which seems reasonable to me.
However, I would agree that there is an issue assessing neutrality (or alternatively attractiveness) when it comes to timbre, spaciousness and similar quantities which are altered by the interaction of the speaker's radiation pattern and the room. Ones familiarity/expectations when it comes to acoustic instruments in different acoustical spaces (e.g. concert halls, small intimate rooms) and studio created music which normally relies less on help from the room cannot all be optimum for a given room and pair of main speakers with a given radiation pattern. Not handling this explicitly does seem to lead to a degree of confusion among enthusiasts and, indeed, the objectives for both an optimum speakers radiation pattern and and optimum room response. A reasonable way forward might be to split the assessment of a speaker into that of the direct sound (i.e. perceivable linear and nonlinear distortion) and the interaction with a given "reference" room for given kinds of music.
For me there is only one way a speaker should sound and that is accurate. A speaker should not have it's own tone it should be neutral IMO . I play guitar so if i make a recording and play it back through my Altec model 19's the tone is very very warm and thick totally unnatural. The guitars fundamental frequency's are from around 80 HZ to 1200 HZ then of coarse overtones / harmonics the 12" speaker in my guitar amp has a cone weight of 28 gram's The model 19's crossover is 1200 HZ so 100% of the guitars fundamental frequency's are playing through a 90 gram 15" cone witch totally changes the tone. If I take that same recording of me playing guitar and play it through my friends Tekton Lore that has a 10" full range with a cone weight of 28 grams then my guitar recording sounds just like my guitar amp. The 10" in the Tekton lore crosses over at 5000 HZ so all the fundamental frequency's of my guitar are being played through a speaker with a cone that is the same weight as my guitars amplifiers speaker cone the Tekton's full range even plays the overtones / harmonics thanks to the whizzer cone being so light. And how a speaker measures will not effect tone.
So recommending speakers to someone based off of my own preferences is defiantly not pointless it's experience / knowledge. I have played guitar for 30+ years I know how a speaker will sound playing my own recordings based off of cone size weight and crossover points. I think a lot of people compare the sounds of speakers to other speakers you hear audio reviewers talk about their reference systems then they go on to compare a speaker they are reviewing to their reference speaker this is so wrong did they ever compare their reference speakers to the real instruments??? I have listened to unamplified / amplified live music my whole life and I have created music for 30+ years So when I listen to a speaker I am not comparing it to another speaker I am comparing it to real life and how real instruments sound. Can you tell by ear what key a guitar is tuned to is it G or did they tune down a couple steps to C can you tell if someone is singing in the same key as their guitar is tuned in? Can you tell if a guitar is steel or nylon strings even if they are both tuned to the same key? I can instantly. So I will rely on my knowledge of what real instruments sound like and I will then apply this knowledge with the knowledge I have of speaker design to achieve the most realistic sound possible and this is not based at all on measurements. There is an interesting interview on you tube audio reviewer Steve Guttenberg interviews Nelson Pass and he ask Nelson whats more important when designing an amplifier measurements or listening and Nelson says listening I could not agree more. I have heard speakers that measure great that did not sound so great and I have listened to speakers that measured great and sounded amazing so what did measurements have to do with the sounds of these speakers?
If an Audiophile or audio reviewer or someone that designs speakers tells me about how something sounds I usually don't pay much attention. But if a musician with thousands of hours of playing & listening to instruments tells me about how something sounds then I am all ears. Think of it this way whats the most important link in an audio system? Amp, speaker, pre-amp ? it's the source a bad recording sucks to listen to a great recording is a joy to listen to. Whats even more important than the source? The instruments without instruments there is no music so for me the most important knowledge to have when designing or buying speakers is the knowledge of what real instruments sound like without this knowledge everything is just a guess.
Why does this Erin guy gave such a big following and trust with reviewing stuff? I just don't understand why these vlogger guys have such trustworthy things to say? He's not that experienced IMO and just because he buys a klippel setup, doesn't mean he has the last word regarding speakers. I just see alot of opinions being spouted that aren't very objective in nature. Anyone can be a vlogger, but an educated ear is much harder to come by. I just don't see why he is so popular on here. Sorry
I had hard time to understand what was the best spŕead for him. The 40° overture of the Jbl or the others.
I think you will find that research concluded that people on average do not prefer an accurate sound but rather a down sloping frequency response.
And that only represents the average preference not the range of preference.
Most people find accurate quite unpleasant.
If by accurate you mean a flat response, I'd ask whether a flat response is necessarily correct...
Trust is built on the support of reproducible evidence/measurements rather than unsupported statements by an individual. This is how science, the law and other areas of life work where reliability is important.
In the case of Erin he is an enthusiastic amateur in the sense he lacks the technical expertise of a professional. As far as I can judge he seems honest and straightforward about this. It would be preferable to have reviews performed by those with genuine technical expertise but such people are going to require appropriate remuneration. Prior to the mid 70s the home audio industry functioned in a way this was economically viable but it hasn't been since. Perhaps it will change in the future but I wouldn't take any bets.
Now there are a fair few nontechnical people that project expertise onto web personalities like Erin but since he is not putting himself forward as such it is hard to see this as a failing at his end. It's more a case of understanding how people, the web and the world works.
If you value reliable technical information about commercial home speakers on the market then Erin is a source for some of it. Not all but some. Given the state and interests of the established home audio publications his looks like a useful contribution. Of course many have no interest in the technical side which is fair enough. What is less fair is claiming technical information therefore has no value for others.
I know/remember Erin as a member of DIYMobileAudio.com where I used to frequent. That site acquired a Klippel tester to test drivers and at one point Erin, back then called "Bikinpunk" (A name I always misread as Bikinipunk), was responsible for running that rig. If I remember correctly he got a Klippel tester for himself at one point and continued to test drivers and at that point posted the results on a website of his own. He was also active with the new Klippel tool to test speakers on ASR. At this point I think it sort of is his "job" to make these review video's but he's been at it for quite a while.
I wouldn't call myself a follower but I used to like the Klippel testing of drivers enough to know of him. I also like the tests of the several type of speakers he does, like the Klippel test of a Danley SH50. In contrast of Amirm's primary testing of small bookshelves, Erin will also test the bigger stuff from time to time and I'm curious enough to have a look. I haven't seen this whole video, just scanned it to see which speakers were in it. I actually never watch the video's, I simply like to look at the raw test data, the graphs etc.
As Erin has been active on multiple forums (including this one) I guess that has made him more trustworthy for many and I guess he's trying to give his audience what they want to see. It's not my thing but I'm not part of the target audience.
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This is not my recollection so I guess the work needs finding.
This makes no sense since it would mean people find live music unpleasant. There is certainly a question about whether deviations from neutrality are more or less valuable as put forward but some earlier in the thread.
If given the choice, I'd rather have accurate response, which i can always alter to taste with EQ or DSP. If I want some other person's interpretation of what response curve they think i should like,, then I may as well be one of the million sheeple out there buying bose or whatever else fashion accessory as audio. Apple people tend to be like that. While I like their proven hardware, I don't need to have an OS which thinks for me with AI to predict what I want or like.
The FR changes with SPL, which can be significant. I listen pretty loud at times and like a little dip around 3-4k to save my ears, plus it sounds more accurate that way with most recordings being accentuated in that area already to cut through at lower volumes. Flat is only desired when I want to mix or master something. When I'm in "consumer mode" its a different story.
The FR changes with SPL, which can be significant. I listen pretty loud at times and like a little dip around 3-4k to save my ears, plus it sounds more accurate that way with most recordings being accentuated in that area already to cut through at lower volumes. Flat is only desired when I want to mix or master something. When I'm in "consumer mode" its a different story.
I dislike people who think they're all that when they do non-professional reviews on Youtube. Just because he is showing measurements of something doesn't mean they're accurate, especially if he doesn't have the scientific background which can weed out bad from good data. I wish it were that easy, but it isn't, so I wouldn't say everything he states is gospel.
The main thing that urks me is the need for publicity, which is what drives him. Most people like that are afraid to have their own opinion about things in fear of potentially offending someone with an opposing thought or theory. Thats almost like politics when a person will say whatever the other guy wants them to, so they gain favor with a many people as possible. That has no place in a scientific process of measurements and fact finding.
That appears overly critical. Erin has always been a humble guy. He has freely distributed measurements and information over several years. All that matters is what’s in the video. Is it true or not?
What one can do with EQ is limited because it cannot address issues associated with the interaction of the off-axis response and the room. This requires changes to the speaker design and/or the room response.
Only to a minor degree. Hardware like his Klippel is largely automated and pretty well sorted, supported and documented. Even when a user is not on top of what they are doing it cannot go far wrong and discussion on forums tends to reveal issues that can be fixed. This was illustrated by Amir with his similar system.
Just like all simulations, all measurements have errors. So one checks them against the measurements of others, previous measurements from the same source and perhaps one or two other checks in order to assign a likely size to the errors. His measurements are almost certainly more accurate than most of those posted to this forum using uncalibrated mics in small living rooms. Measurements with significant errors can still be valuable and useful if you know the form and likely sizes of the errors.
If measurements are presented then the discussion and conclusions drawn from them can be checked. This is about the best one can hope for and is way ahead of most freely available information sources. Given the price of the hardware and the time he invests one can only hope his marketing is successful in driving eyeballs to youtube and the like to provide an income stream. Given the modest size of his audience I doubt it is a particularly fruitful venture in a financial sense but if it was then that would be an encouraging sign for helping to reverse the dumbing down that has occurred in the mainstream of home audio.
I always look at why people are motivated to do what they do. That will never be different tor the way I approach people. I dont care what other people think about me or the way I do what I do. You may call that being prejudice, but I'm ok with that. People do it to me all the time and thats fine, because its simply human nature.
I've never gotten any worthwhile info from Erin's videos. If you have, good for you. He'll continue to make money from his videos. I dont look at measurements being black and white. Look at for instance how difficult it is to make valid driver distortion measurements. I trust HIfi compass or Zaphs site more than any other source for this. Also, people are so hung up about perfect power response, which also isn't the whole story.
I've never gotten any worthwhile info from Erin's videos. If you have, good for you. He'll continue to make money from his videos. I dont look at measurements being black and white. Look at for instance how difficult it is to make valid driver distortion measurements. I trust HIfi compass or Zaphs site more than any other source for this. Also, people are so hung up about perfect power response, which also isn't the whole story.
@andy19191 If the speaker is designed to be flat and have good off axis response, it can be EQed any way you like without detriment to fidelity, given the DSP filtering is of good design, or in the case of analog EQ (yes, some people still use analog for this), it can be done just as well. This is why they used to put bass and treble controls on amplifiers back in the day. I still believe in not using any EQ if possible, but the real world dictates otherwise, so certain styles of music are more enjoyable. I dont know about others, but I can't deal with ear splitting mids if I want to raise the volume, which also adjusts for the Fletcher Munson loudness curve our hearing perceives. Again, some equipment used to have a loudness button for good reason.
A properly engineered speaker has (in theory) a flat FR, phase response and proportional off axis power response. The room contributes to that as well, some rooms more than others. I don't want a soeaker to have a "dumbed down" curve designed into it. I'll fix the curve if I want with EQ. It has worked for many years in the pro audio recording world and still works nowadays. FIR filters work well if employed judiciously as long as the pre-ringing isn't excessive.
A properly engineered speaker has (in theory) a flat FR, phase response and proportional off axis power response. The room contributes to that as well, some rooms more than others. I don't want a soeaker to have a "dumbed down" curve designed into it. I'll fix the curve if I want with EQ. It has worked for many years in the pro audio recording world and still works nowadays. FIR filters work well if employed judiciously as long as the pre-ringing isn't excessive.
Its necessary if you want to have neutrality. I wouldn't want my speakers to be purposely colored in sound to suit one or any other type of music. We call those things "one trick ponies". I like to have my own input on what coloration (there always is some practically speaking) I'm listening to. I wrote my own loudness algorithm for my processor, which adjusts the loudness curve continually as I adjust the volume level. Thats sort of what they tried to achieve with loudness circuits in amplifiers back in the day, but they never worked well enough to achieve this. Our ears aren't linear and that's why it's necessary to factor in when listening at louder levels. A set curve doesn't satisfy all listening needs. Thats why I'm against built in coloration.