I wondered about that. I guess no different really to overall interactions when you have multiple legs in a crossover.
Tony.
Tony.
Ok thank you so far for the input ,,,yet too many answers very confusing ....Stay with me please i am an amplifier guy and i may know class AB inside out but not speakers Yes i can use a simulator but its pointless since i am not able to evaluate the results correctly .
So the original story is going to be long but it might help out ....The speaker design was given to me by a 75 year old speaker guru who calculated needs of my space , needs of my budget and needs of my music .
Speaker is working as we speak ( with the right hand xover ) in a symmetric living room with a center tap listening area and distance. The enclosure is about 100 lt (bit less) and has inline starting from the top two mid range one tweeter and two woofers .... Rear bass reflex
result :
Bass is super punchy , speedy ,transparent, rich, no boomy at all, while low mid is also present with no issues
High's are also reach, extremely clean, very crispy and remind the high of the JBL 2405 tweeter in pro systems and monitors
Mid area : at first nothing screams like in upper low mid or in high mid middle is there but lets say that it doesn't " dominate " the system ...
Distribution of sound outside the sweet spot is even for both vertical axis and horizontal axis cause often you get speakers that work perfectly inside the sweet spot but outside is a complete mess ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So to begin with here is a note from the author and designer about the xover
--You see the tweeter filter and actually what you see there from topology aspect is 4th order filter even though the values of the mid xover do not work in favor of the tweeter from topology aspect it remains a forth order filter
--Where ever you have a capacitor in series you have phase invert of some amount in the circuit so the capacitor next to the tweeter inverts phase , but if tweeter network is fed from the mid capacitor the phase is re inverted back
--At this point you have your tweeters in phase with the woofer and this is something we need Also passing through two capacitors will insert in the signal both a minor voltage drop and some amount of delay and in this case we might need both of those factors since spl of tweeter is higher
--yet again adding the tweeter net work on the mid net work will produce at some point some additional voltage drop in the mid network which this is something we also need
---so the all network will work very smoothly and no resistor will be used anywhere
---your only problem is the mid range that if connected correctly in polarity it will be out of phase of some amount and that will produce a speaker that emphasizes edges which can be very nice for your music ( soulful house where the middle should be there should be enough but not that much to dominate the system ) and completely visa versa if mid is connected in inverted polarity and the correct phase then you will have a speaker dominated by the mid area .
I confirm that this is how exactly the speaker sounds working as we speak as described above with the second schematic and the mid connected in the correct polarity so out o phase ....
After careful listening of a few days i could do with 8-10% less high but i also could do with may be 15-20% more mid but no more than that
The mid as said above is in a way less effective than the rest of the speaker
so in zero listening level you hear everything superb excpet the middle is a bit dead above that and even in power of 5 W everything sounds perfect up to the 85 W that is produced from the amplifier .
Question is
can i do better than that ?
In the next post i will provide all the tech data for those who are willing to bother with this
Thank you very much all !!!!
So the original story is going to be long but it might help out ....The speaker design was given to me by a 75 year old speaker guru who calculated needs of my space , needs of my budget and needs of my music .
Speaker is working as we speak ( with the right hand xover ) in a symmetric living room with a center tap listening area and distance. The enclosure is about 100 lt (bit less) and has inline starting from the top two mid range one tweeter and two woofers .... Rear bass reflex
result :
Bass is super punchy , speedy ,transparent, rich, no boomy at all, while low mid is also present with no issues
High's are also reach, extremely clean, very crispy and remind the high of the JBL 2405 tweeter in pro systems and monitors
Mid area : at first nothing screams like in upper low mid or in high mid middle is there but lets say that it doesn't " dominate " the system ...
Distribution of sound outside the sweet spot is even for both vertical axis and horizontal axis cause often you get speakers that work perfectly inside the sweet spot but outside is a complete mess ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So to begin with here is a note from the author and designer about the xover
--You see the tweeter filter and actually what you see there from topology aspect is 4th order filter even though the values of the mid xover do not work in favor of the tweeter from topology aspect it remains a forth order filter
--Where ever you have a capacitor in series you have phase invert of some amount in the circuit so the capacitor next to the tweeter inverts phase , but if tweeter network is fed from the mid capacitor the phase is re inverted back
--At this point you have your tweeters in phase with the woofer and this is something we need Also passing through two capacitors will insert in the signal both a minor voltage drop and some amount of delay and in this case we might need both of those factors since spl of tweeter is higher
--yet again adding the tweeter net work on the mid net work will produce at some point some additional voltage drop in the mid network which this is something we also need
---so the all network will work very smoothly and no resistor will be used anywhere
---your only problem is the mid range that if connected correctly in polarity it will be out of phase of some amount and that will produce a speaker that emphasizes edges which can be very nice for your music ( soulful house where the middle should be there should be enough but not that much to dominate the system ) and completely visa versa if mid is connected in inverted polarity and the correct phase then you will have a speaker dominated by the mid area .
I confirm that this is how exactly the speaker sounds working as we speak as described above with the second schematic and the mid connected in the correct polarity so out o phase ....
After careful listening of a few days i could do with 8-10% less high but i also could do with may be 15-20% more mid but no more than that
The mid as said above is in a way less effective than the rest of the speaker
so in zero listening level you hear everything superb excpet the middle is a bit dead above that and even in power of 5 W everything sounds perfect up to the 85 W that is produced from the amplifier .
Question is
can i do better than that ?
In the next post i will provide all the tech data for those who are willing to bother with this
Thank you very much all !!!!
Last edited:
speaker box is about 100 lt
rear bass reflex
calculated fs is about 56hz
Configuration is in line starting from the top
2* mids Visaton MR 130 89db 8R parallel 4 R MR 130 - 8 Ohm | Visaton
1* tweeter DSM 25 FFL 90db 8R DSM 25 FFL - 8 Ohm | Visaton
and down bellow 2* woofers W200s 88db 8R in parallel 4R W 200 S - 8 Ohm | Visaton.....
The actual filter is according the schematic bellow and has two notes from the author
1) if you find that there is absence of low mid decrease woofer capacitor from the total of 56 uf to something lower like 10uf lower
2) if high mid is screaming increase the value of the last coil from 0.33 up to 1.3
this is what i got so far the rest is up too you
Minor correction so i don't have to extract the schematic again woofer coil has lower resistance than 0.6 not higher is written and mids and woofers are connected on the correct polarity
rear bass reflex
calculated fs is about 56hz
Configuration is in line starting from the top
2* mids Visaton MR 130 89db 8R parallel 4 R MR 130 - 8 Ohm | Visaton
1* tweeter DSM 25 FFL 90db 8R DSM 25 FFL - 8 Ohm | Visaton
and down bellow 2* woofers W200s 88db 8R in parallel 4R W 200 S - 8 Ohm | Visaton.....
The actual filter is according the schematic bellow and has two notes from the author
1) if you find that there is absence of low mid decrease woofer capacitor from the total of 56 uf to something lower like 10uf lower
2) if high mid is screaming increase the value of the last coil from 0.33 up to 1.3
this is what i got so far the rest is up too you
Minor correction so i don't have to extract the schematic again woofer coil has lower resistance than 0.6 not higher is written and mids and woofers are connected on the correct polarity
Attachments
Last edited:
Have you tried inverting the midrange drivers polarity? I think you should do so and see whether you prefer it that way. If it is currently out of phase you will have a midrange suckout, maybe it will be too far the other way if you connect in phase, but it doesn't take much to try it.
Tony.
Tony.
I have shown some options (you have to imagine the crossover frequency 😉) The black trace is before and pink is after.
The first plot is increasing the value of C7. Lower mid is increased. This is the easiest to make a difference.
The second plot is reducing L7. Upper mid is increased.
The third plot is increasing L5. Mid is increased while lower treble is reduced.
In my opinion, try increasing C7 first and see if it is the right frequency, and think about setting your treble with two resistors.
The first plot is increasing the value of C7. Lower mid is increased. This is the easiest to make a difference.
The second plot is reducing L7. Upper mid is increased.
The third plot is increasing L5. Mid is increased while lower treble is reduced.
In my opinion, try increasing C7 first and see if it is the right frequency, and think about setting your treble with two resistors.
Attachments
as said i find the mid slightly lower but this happens in very low listening levels i actually spot that in the high mid area but as said only in very low listening level
At 5 W of power everything is very balanced
Plan is to invert the mid next weekend to have available listening time to spend . and get back with my answers
So far thsi is not a problem for me but since many times i like to have my system playing in the background a good tonal balance even in dead quiet levels is something that i like to have Not sure if is possible to get
I listen to low levels average is 15W with amplifier that is 85 W