I'm planning to build a 5.1 surround system for my home theater (see thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/282286-diy-home-theatre-where-start.html) with all active crossover and individual amplification. 3 way frontstage and 2-way rear surround
A friend of mine built a carputer about 10yrs ago where he would use the different output of a surround sound car to drive active 3-way frontstage. Would it be possible to do the same thing with an home theater? If it has been done, what kind of equipment would be adequate?
A friend of mine built a carputer about 10yrs ago where he would use the different output of a surround sound car to drive active 3-way frontstage. Would it be possible to do the same thing with an home theater? If it has been done, what kind of equipment would be adequate?
I don't see any restriction from the hardware side of things*, it'll depend of your budget, the number of total ways you need and what you use as source.
The issue i can see could come from the software set up though ( here again it'll depend of your source but something like JRiver should be able to perform everythings at once).
Could you describe more in depth your needs?
*if you don't try to mix up different interface from differents brands.
The issue i can see could come from the software set up though ( here again it'll depend of your source but something like JRiver should be able to perform everythings at once).
Could you describe more in depth your needs?
*if you don't try to mix up different interface from differents brands.
I’ve begun assembling components.
DML panels
Left and right of the TV.
I’ll try something a little unusual with the DMLs, using a pair of exciters on each panel - one exciter delivering the left or right stereo channel, then the second delivering center channel information to the same panel.
Magnepan has explored using a pair of their panels as this kind of dual center channel. It appears to work well especially when one doesn’t have a good place for a typical center speaker above or below the TV.
DMLs introduce interesting new possibilities.
No surround channels or subwoofer for this installation.
I want to explore what the DMLs will do before even thinking about anything else.
Amplifiers
I have a pair of stereo Hypex N-Core amps modules. Maybe overkill for the DMLs, but I’ve used versions of these with other DMLs with great success.
Streaming
I have an Apple TV feeding an LG OLED TV - no other sources. The LG TV will connect by optical audio to something to handle DSP & DAC.
DSP & DAC
Here I can use some advice.
I don’t want to buy an AV preamp/processor. I don’t see the sense in paying a premium for a lot of functionality I’ll never use.
I’ve got a computer I can dedicate to this. I guess I need the right sound card and software to do the DSP & DAC I’ll need.
Suggestions appreciated.
I can program, typically in Mathematica, which opens up a wide range of possibilities for DSP. Mathematica has lots of support for signal processing.
Downside, that programming would take time I may not have over the next few months.
The DSP solution needs to decode the current Dolby Surround stuff.
Although the only tricky part for me is extracting the center channel information.
Alternatively, I could use something like the miniDSP SHD. This would enable me to fabricate center channel information rather than decode/extract it.
An SHD or even a simpler miniDSP device could prove serviceable.
Not as good a solution as a dedicated AV processor, but the SHD also has a pretty good DAC and Dirac for room correction, which could prove very useful.
I’ve looked around for surround decoders, but haven’t found anything that look like it actually decode Dolby.
Thoughts on all or any of this appreciated.
Andreas
DML panels
Left and right of the TV.
I’ll try something a little unusual with the DMLs, using a pair of exciters on each panel - one exciter delivering the left or right stereo channel, then the second delivering center channel information to the same panel.
Magnepan has explored using a pair of their panels as this kind of dual center channel. It appears to work well especially when one doesn’t have a good place for a typical center speaker above or below the TV.
DMLs introduce interesting new possibilities.
No surround channels or subwoofer for this installation.
I want to explore what the DMLs will do before even thinking about anything else.
Amplifiers
I have a pair of stereo Hypex N-Core amps modules. Maybe overkill for the DMLs, but I’ve used versions of these with other DMLs with great success.
Streaming
I have an Apple TV feeding an LG OLED TV - no other sources. The LG TV will connect by optical audio to something to handle DSP & DAC.
DSP & DAC
Here I can use some advice.
I don’t want to buy an AV preamp/processor. I don’t see the sense in paying a premium for a lot of functionality I’ll never use.
I’ve got a computer I can dedicate to this. I guess I need the right sound card and software to do the DSP & DAC I’ll need.
Suggestions appreciated.
I can program, typically in Mathematica, which opens up a wide range of possibilities for DSP. Mathematica has lots of support for signal processing.
Downside, that programming would take time I may not have over the next few months.
The DSP solution needs to decode the current Dolby Surround stuff.
Although the only tricky part for me is extracting the center channel information.
Alternatively, I could use something like the miniDSP SHD. This would enable me to fabricate center channel information rather than decode/extract it.
An SHD or even a simpler miniDSP device could prove serviceable.
Not as good a solution as a dedicated AV processor, but the SHD also has a pretty good DAC and Dirac for room correction, which could prove very useful.
I’ve looked around for surround decoders, but haven’t found anything that look like it actually decode Dolby.
Thoughts on all or any of this appreciated.
Andreas
Look at atlona de-embedder, hd570. I think it takes an hdmi input and outputs 7.1 analog, digital out, and hdmi passthrough.
Of course you can also buy a cheap denon av receiver, use ARC, and ignore the video functions. That's what I do. I know you said you don't want to pay for functionality you won't use, but it's probably the cheapest option too.
ARC is important if your using the TV to stream.
Of course you can also buy a cheap denon av receiver, use ARC, and ignore the video functions. That's what I do. I know you said you don't want to pay for functionality you won't use, but it's probably the cheapest option too.
ARC is important if your using the TV to stream.
Hi rif,
I looked at the AT-HD570. It could work, but unless I missed something it wouldn’t give me the DSP control (even at a manual level rather than something like Dirac) that I think I’ll need for this build.
I also couldn’t find information about the DAC chips used in the device.
In any event, I’ve asked for a quote. Maybe worth trying.
I’ve got one of those old cheap Denon AV receivers. Just so big, clunky, and nothing about it ever helped with the sound.
I admit to being a design snob, NO I meant seeker of minimalist elegant solutions ;-)
I never mind paying money for quality, but I do delight in embarrassing my NY investment banker friends who spend $60k to $100k for audio equipment. I get them over to my place and blow them away with DIY stuff that I’ve cobbled together from parts that have lived in a closet or drawer for a couple of years.
…an extra audio pleasure.
Thx.
- Andreas
I looked at the AT-HD570. It could work, but unless I missed something it wouldn’t give me the DSP control (even at a manual level rather than something like Dirac) that I think I’ll need for this build.
I also couldn’t find information about the DAC chips used in the device.
In any event, I’ve asked for a quote. Maybe worth trying.
I’ve got one of those old cheap Denon AV receivers. Just so big, clunky, and nothing about it ever helped with the sound.
I admit to being a design snob, NO I meant seeker of minimalist elegant solutions ;-)
I never mind paying money for quality, but I do delight in embarrassing my NY investment banker friends who spend $60k to $100k for audio equipment. I get them over to my place and blow them away with DIY stuff that I’ve cobbled together from parts that have lived in a closet or drawer for a couple of years.
…an extra audio pleasure.
Thx.
- Andreas
Hi,
Unusual interesting approach you have!
Ok first the bad news:
From what i gather you espect some D(igital)R(oom)C(orrection) to happen through FIR processing.
This will lead to a delay time on the audio stream.
You can't do anything about that, this is the nature of the beast ( FIR) and the exact delay time will be known only when everything is 'done' ( you have your FIR filter profile built).
As the system will be used to monitor 'real time event' ( the stream from your TV) you'll will face desynchronisation of image and sound. Image will be in advance by an amount of given ms over audio. This offset is stable in time though ( it doesn't vary randomly over time).
As long as this offset is under 3 to 5ms it doesn't matter. Once it is longuer it is disturbing ( to say the least).
So as you can't do anything about your audio delay ( we can't go back in time) the answer is to hold image for the same time as your audio delay to resynchronise everything together.
I don't know if this option is availlable through your TV but i doubt. If it is availlable then no issue it'll work no problem given you accept as a compromise a small lag time between your action ( eg:changing chanel) and your tv/audio reaction.
I know Netflix offer this function in the option but i suppose you will want to see other programs too.
Then how to proceed if you want your tv to be the source?
How i see things is you could output tv signal to a pc going back to it ( through HDMI out and an hdmi input card on computer ) and let a software proceed the video hold and the audio processing.
JRiver allow this i'm sure. The hdmi acquiring card required for the computer should cost around 200dollars ( 180 euros) for the one i've seen.
Second thing mandatory if you want FIR to be used: you'll need to take measurements. And for this you'll need a mic, a soundcard including mic preamp a stand and xlr. And learn how to make measurements and interpret them.
This will require some investissment in time but it is woth rewarding imho.
If this two points are ok then the good news is your wishes are possible:
By extracting the audio stream in hdmi you can have access to each discreet multi chanel independently or if you just want a center from a stereo stream you only need an M/S encoding/ decoding plug in ( it exist into JRiver i believe or you can import any VST plug in in it to perform the job).
If you don't sant to invest into an hdmi input card for the computer then the only answer i see is to skip the tv and use internet tv service as source into JRiver ( or other player with same functionality). This will have impact on ergonomy though if you like to have a remote ( maybe use a smartphone application as a remote?).
Before proceeding further think about this points.
If ok then you could go deeper and see what hardware could be ok.
If others have thoughts about other limitations please express them.
Or any answer to the delay issue i don't know of ? ( i've looked for way to only produce the image delay but it doesn't seem to be availlable to consumer. I know it exist in pro environnment but standards are differents and prices too).
Unusual interesting approach you have!
Ok first the bad news:
From what i gather you espect some D(igital)R(oom)C(orrection) to happen through FIR processing.
This will lead to a delay time on the audio stream.
You can't do anything about that, this is the nature of the beast ( FIR) and the exact delay time will be known only when everything is 'done' ( you have your FIR filter profile built).
As the system will be used to monitor 'real time event' ( the stream from your TV) you'll will face desynchronisation of image and sound. Image will be in advance by an amount of given ms over audio. This offset is stable in time though ( it doesn't vary randomly over time).
As long as this offset is under 3 to 5ms it doesn't matter. Once it is longuer it is disturbing ( to say the least).
So as you can't do anything about your audio delay ( we can't go back in time) the answer is to hold image for the same time as your audio delay to resynchronise everything together.
I don't know if this option is availlable through your TV but i doubt. If it is availlable then no issue it'll work no problem given you accept as a compromise a small lag time between your action ( eg:changing chanel) and your tv/audio reaction.
I know Netflix offer this function in the option but i suppose you will want to see other programs too.
Then how to proceed if you want your tv to be the source?
How i see things is you could output tv signal to a pc going back to it ( through HDMI out and an hdmi input card on computer ) and let a software proceed the video hold and the audio processing.
JRiver allow this i'm sure. The hdmi acquiring card required for the computer should cost around 200dollars ( 180 euros) for the one i've seen.
Second thing mandatory if you want FIR to be used: you'll need to take measurements. And for this you'll need a mic, a soundcard including mic preamp a stand and xlr. And learn how to make measurements and interpret them.
This will require some investissment in time but it is woth rewarding imho.
If this two points are ok then the good news is your wishes are possible:
By extracting the audio stream in hdmi you can have access to each discreet multi chanel independently or if you just want a center from a stereo stream you only need an M/S encoding/ decoding plug in ( it exist into JRiver i believe or you can import any VST plug in in it to perform the job).
If you don't sant to invest into an hdmi input card for the computer then the only answer i see is to skip the tv and use internet tv service as source into JRiver ( or other player with same functionality). This will have impact on ergonomy though if you like to have a remote ( maybe use a smartphone application as a remote?).
Before proceeding further think about this points.
If ok then you could go deeper and see what hardware could be ok.
If others have thoughts about other limitations please express them.
Or any answer to the delay issue i don't know of ? ( i've looked for way to only produce the image delay but it doesn't seem to be availlable to consumer. I know it exist in pro environnment but standards are differents and prices too).
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I think the Apple TV is a limiting factor here. Things become a lot more configurable when using a PC with linux, and for example Kodi as home theatre software, with pulseaudio and jack for audio routing.
Although the learning curve is steep, and things like netflix might be difficult to get working.
Although the learning curve is steep, and things like netflix might be difficult to get working.
bob1on1 —
The more I study this, the more I come to your thought on the Apple TV. Really about where one intercepts the stream to do what I need/want to do without creating other problems.
My hacking/programming experience leans toward software so maybe I can take up the open source HTPC code and streamline it for my specific (minimalist) use.
I really don’t need multiple sources, which should simplify what I need in an HTPC and soundcard.
I do wonder about tearing apart an old receiver or sound-bar and repurposing a Dolby decoding chip.
I guess the cost of licensing Dolby makes it too expensive for miniDSP to offer an add in for something like their SHD series, or Hypex to do so in their DSP modules but one can hope/dream.
I’ve already started sourcing a computer chassis with the kind of heatsinks many of us would use in amplifier builds to give me a fan-less/quiet computer.
My TV does have some image sound syncing settings. A bit crude, but maybe serviceable.
krivium —
I have everything I need for measurement and plenty of experience with REW and the Hypex tools. Thanks again.
The more I study this, the more I come to your thought on the Apple TV. Really about where one intercepts the stream to do what I need/want to do without creating other problems.
My hacking/programming experience leans toward software so maybe I can take up the open source HTPC code and streamline it for my specific (minimalist) use.
I really don’t need multiple sources, which should simplify what I need in an HTPC and soundcard.
I do wonder about tearing apart an old receiver or sound-bar and repurposing a Dolby decoding chip.
I guess the cost of licensing Dolby makes it too expensive for miniDSP to offer an add in for something like their SHD series, or Hypex to do so in their DSP modules but one can hope/dream.
I’ve already started sourcing a computer chassis with the kind of heatsinks many of us would use in amplifier builds to give me a fan-less/quiet computer.
My TV does have some image sound syncing settings. A bit crude, but maybe serviceable.
krivium —
I have everything I need for measurement and plenty of experience with REW and the Hypex tools. Thanks again.
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I'm using an old dell optiplex as htpc with 8TB hdd for bluray collection, connect thru diy dac using usb to spdif.
I also had an idea like this because i dont want to use any AVR, but my conclusion now if your movie audio is lossy like DTS Surround (bluray with lossy audio channel or DVD) then internal soundcard or even external sound card decode it. i have 5.1 dts processor bought from aliexpress with toslink input. good to decode lossy but dead silence when the audio is switched into loseless.
BUT if you have bluray movie (who will watch DVD anyway this day) with loseless audio codec like DTS HD Master or Dolby TrueHD or even Atmos then only AVR has the capability to decode it. no any soundcard has the licence to process this
buy an AVR or stay in stereo sound, well i'm watching bluray remux with VLC and have no issue with center image at all, don't need any AVR yet
I also had an idea like this because i dont want to use any AVR, but my conclusion now if your movie audio is lossy like DTS Surround (bluray with lossy audio channel or DVD) then internal soundcard or even external sound card decode it. i have 5.1 dts processor bought from aliexpress with toslink input. good to decode lossy but dead silence when the audio is switched into loseless.
BUT if you have bluray movie (who will watch DVD anyway this day) with loseless audio codec like DTS HD Master or Dolby TrueHD or even Atmos then only AVR has the capability to decode it. no any soundcard has the licence to process this
buy an AVR or stay in stereo sound, well i'm watching bluray remux with VLC and have no issue with center image at all, don't need any AVR yet
Hi,
If you go HTPC route don't bother: use it as source with a competent software like JRiver which will perform EVERYTHING you may need including resynchronisation, dematrixing of most formats usually used and the processing of FIR on every discreet chanel and then route each one to a dedicated output on any ASIO compatible soundcard. The routing within the soft is very flexible and powerful if you want to perform processing: you can import other plug ins for specific non implemented functions if needed...
Use your tv only as a screen.
Asio harware mean prosoundcard. This open multiple way for dac: use of digital only output card + converters or an integrated system including dac.
The offer is vast. I've got experience with Lynx and Rme for digital card. Both brands are flawless from stability or sound with very good clocks. I run RME for 20years and never had any trouble ( multiple cards on multiple systems).
One option i see is an RME DIgiface usb and some Topping or SMSL converters. Could works up to 192khz ( spdif) and up to 8 chanel with 4 differents units. Spdif being selfclocked signal no variations between the differents DACs.
There is models from Motu, Focusrite,... which include dacs too. The number of chanel will vary from 8 to 32 ( for 1 unity 19" racks with possibility to run multiple in // ) in case you want 5.1 or more of multiway loudspeakers, or athmos or whatever...
Ultimately it'll depend of your needs.
I'm interested by your use of BMR. There is no space above your tv to insert a panel as a real center?
And do you plan to have have surround and sub too?
If you are used to measurement then it'll be easier.
What do you plan about dsp treatments ( some eq profile target + DRC)? Do you have a routine you thoughts about?
If you go HTPC route don't bother: use it as source with a competent software like JRiver which will perform EVERYTHING you may need including resynchronisation, dematrixing of most formats usually used and the processing of FIR on every discreet chanel and then route each one to a dedicated output on any ASIO compatible soundcard. The routing within the soft is very flexible and powerful if you want to perform processing: you can import other plug ins for specific non implemented functions if needed...
Use your tv only as a screen.
Asio harware mean prosoundcard. This open multiple way for dac: use of digital only output card + converters or an integrated system including dac.
The offer is vast. I've got experience with Lynx and Rme for digital card. Both brands are flawless from stability or sound with very good clocks. I run RME for 20years and never had any trouble ( multiple cards on multiple systems).
One option i see is an RME DIgiface usb and some Topping or SMSL converters. Could works up to 192khz ( spdif) and up to 8 chanel with 4 differents units. Spdif being selfclocked signal no variations between the differents DACs.
There is models from Motu, Focusrite,... which include dacs too. The number of chanel will vary from 8 to 32 ( for 1 unity 19" racks with possibility to run multiple in // ) in case you want 5.1 or more of multiway loudspeakers, or athmos or whatever...
Ultimately it'll depend of your needs.
I'm interested by your use of BMR. There is no space above your tv to insert a panel as a real center?
And do you plan to have have surround and sub too?
If you are used to measurement then it'll be easier.
What do you plan about dsp treatments ( some eq profile target + DRC)? Do you have a routine you thoughts about?
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For PC playback - TrueHD DTS decoding is performed by software, as part of the driver bundle. I do not know of a soundcard which has a built-in DSP programmed to decode these digital formats. Maybe some X-Fis but I doubt it.
I just tested latest stable kodi on my Ubuntu stable 20.04 - plays an atmos-only sample from Dolby Trailers - The Digital Theater flawlessly to my integrated HD-audio soundcard. Checked with mediainfo - only one TrueHD DTS audio stream in the mkv container:
That means ffmpeg (and thus mplayer -> kodi) decodes HD audio OK, no need for AVR-based decoding.
The DSP processing could be CamillaDSP with its alsa adapter GitHub - scripple/alsa_cdsp: ALSA plugin for Camilla DSP -> multichannel soundcard. Just setting up the input chain to 8 channels. CamillaDSP can easily perform xovering for each channel, resulting in output 16 or 24 channels, if your soundcard offers this.
In addition, CamillaDSP offers adaptive resampling between input and output soundcard clock domains which allows DSPing external digital (SPDIF/HDMI) or even analog inputs - just like AVR.
A number of options have arisen recently (TrueHD support in ffmpeg, camilladsp, usb-audio gadget driver in linux for multichannel audio transfer between PC -> linux SBC), but all require less or more configuring in linux, depending on requirements.
I just tested latest stable kodi on my Ubuntu stable 20.04 - plays an atmos-only sample from Dolby Trailers - The Digital Theater flawlessly to my integrated HD-audio soundcard. Checked with mediainfo - only one TrueHD DTS audio stream in the mkv container:
Code:
Audio
ID : 2
Format : MLP FBA
Format/Info : Meridian Lossless Packing FBA
Commercial name : Dolby TrueHD
Codec ID : A_TRUEHD
Duration : 13 s 13 ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Maximum bit rate : 6 336 kb/s
Channel(s) : 8 channels
Channel layout : L R C LFE Ls Rs Lb Rb
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 1 200.000 FPS (40 SPF)
Bit depth : 24 bits
Compression mode : Lossless
Title : Surround 7.1
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : NoThat means ffmpeg (and thus mplayer -> kodi) decodes HD audio OK, no need for AVR-based decoding.
The DSP processing could be CamillaDSP with its alsa adapter GitHub - scripple/alsa_cdsp: ALSA plugin for Camilla DSP -> multichannel soundcard. Just setting up the input chain to 8 channels. CamillaDSP can easily perform xovering for each channel, resulting in output 16 or 24 channels, if your soundcard offers this.
In addition, CamillaDSP offers adaptive resampling between input and output soundcard clock domains which allows DSPing external digital (SPDIF/HDMI) or even analog inputs - just like AVR.
A number of options have arisen recently (TrueHD support in ffmpeg, camilladsp, usb-audio gadget driver in linux for multichannel audio transfer between PC -> linux SBC), but all require less or more configuring in linux, depending on requirements.
phofman --
Great addition to the discussion. This looks more and more possible.
Much appreciated.
-- Andreas
Great addition to the discussion. This looks more and more possible.
Much appreciated.
-- Andreas
Marantz makes slim receivers. It looks like you're drifting away from minimal elegant solutions by using a HT computer running various software.
But put that all aside. If your having fun and have the patience, go for it!
Hi krivium,
could you let me know the identification information of the Lynx and/or RME card(s) you have experience with?
Kindest regards,
M
could you let me know the identification information of the Lynx and/or RME card(s) you have experience with?
Kindest regards,
M
Hi,
Rme: Hdsp ( various models using adat or aes: pci 9652/36, AES32), hdspe Aes32. Win, from XP to win10. Digiface USB win7/8/10.
Lynx: aes16. Same OS and with Apple hardware.
Both brands are rock solid stable: you set them up once and forget about them. Typical (good) studio gear.
Rme: Hdsp ( various models using adat or aes: pci 9652/36, AES32), hdspe Aes32. Win, from XP to win10. Digiface USB win7/8/10.
Lynx: aes16. Same OS and with Apple hardware.
Both brands are rock solid stable: you set them up once and forget about them. Typical (good) studio gear.
Hi krivium,
first, thank you very much for the reply.
Also, you mentioned the OSs being Win and Apple. I will do some research on UNIX-type OSs, i.e., Linux, FreeBSD, but if you have any experience in this regards, please advise.
Kindest regards,
M
first, thank you very much for the reply.
Also, you mentioned the OSs being Win and Apple. I will do some research on UNIX-type OSs, i.e., Linux, FreeBSD, but if you have any experience in this regards, please advise.
Kindest regards,
M
Hi,
No direct experience with Linux, sorry. I think Rme have Alsa drivers availlable though.
Lynx i don't know.
No direct experience with Linux, sorry. I think Rme have Alsa drivers availlable though.
Lynx i don't know.