I'm not sure exactly what I said. Suggesting and explicitly saying something are indeed different. However, I have said in many videos that higher sensitivity doesn't guarantee greater dynamics. I have tested a few speakers that are in the low 80's which have great dynamic range (judging by compression tests).
I stopped when you referred to yourself as an expert. I work with literal rocket scientists. Even the SME's don't call themselves 'experts'. I think that is quite telling of a person and their intentions (often ego driven) when they use self-descriptors like this. That is why I decided not to engage. But I see you came back with a more reasoned reply so I opted back in.
That's on you, then. I never said that. I never intimated as much. It was you who decided I don't have the experience and assumed things about me that are (likely) untrue.
ahhh... there is that "expert" word again. 😉
You experts seem to have missed the main discussion point which is simply: cheaper tower speakers often don't have the crossover network to prevent phase issues which results in a more diffuse image in the soundstage and thus a potentially "larger" sound. I did explicitly mention the things you said I missed which gives me the impression that your purpose here isn't to discuss the topic but rather pick nits at me. Which is discouraging and doesn't really show good faith.
At any rate, if we want to talk about experts then: a very well-respected designer emailed me about my video and offered some other ideas as well. He suggested the influence of baffle step wrt front wall placement as another point. I've heard a couple cardioid designs that eliminated this below ~150Hz and it is quite interesting that those actually had a larger (wider) soundstage than I would have expected. So, even on the basis of assuming that rear reflections can create a larger soundstage I'd have to say that I'm not fully convinced based on those impressions. But do not misconstrue me being "not convinced" with saying it is "definitely not the reason". A couple instances doesn't equal certain causality.
As for driver beaming calculations, this is straightforward. You can argue with Tom Danley, Vance Dickason etc. Hell, you can argue with physics. If you want to talk about horn loaded drivers then of course that changes. But the standard commercially available 2-way bookshelf speaker isn't using a horn loaded MF driver (heck, few use a waveguide on a tweeter). So the rule applies to these general cases. These are the people watching my videos. If someone is building a 10 foot tall midbass horn in their basement then I'm gonna guess they aren't watching my videos. They're probably reading the experts' posts on diyaudio. 😉
What I'd like to see you guys discuss is "should a bigger speaker sound bigger". I'd be interested in reading your thoughts on that. I am of the opinion that a speaker should ideally remain a pointsource and that if it sounds big then it needs to do so not because of phase issues. Of course there are aspects like room involvement, the overall enveloping sound of more air being moved, etc. But I think those are just "scaling factors" and not necessarily what a speaker should do.
@camplo I just PM'd you my phone number. You can call me and discuss there. Honestly, I have so much going on that doing a tit-for-tat on the internet - which this feels like is what this became - isn't a way I can afford to spend my time. So I am bowing out now. I encourage you to call me if you're game.
- Erin
Edit: When I hear someone refer to themself as an expert, publicly, I am reminded of this scene:
Last edited by a moderator:
lol I'm not an expert, and so far your skill level seems to be about the same as mine except I can see some things described by you, not done so, well, which isn't saying much because I do it all the time (lol!) the difference; I am usually explaining myself to an expert looking for confirmation or correction while you are explaining yourself to a large audience as hard science when you don't actually have it all down pat. This is what I said
I, am asking, like many here (the rest of us), questions, to, the experts. We have some pretty high level professionals here, no need to assume or guess... Just ask them. Planet10 is definitely one of those experts. I mean we get to talk to people like Dr. Geddes on a daily basis... he never said "I'm an expert" nor did the people I might mention... they don't have to because whats understood need not be said. Tbh the Experts tend to agree on a lot of things when it comes to the basics of loudspeaker design, just something to think about, because, nothing that you've touched on is advance, its all very basic.
For the record, I highly value @bikinpunk 's contributions, his website, his reviews, and his data. Whatever his speaker design experience may be, he is an expert in speaker measurements.
Then simply state this and don't confuse them with an overflow of vaguely related info.
If you're noticing this trend, then it might be time to assess and take ownership of what may be causing this. Don't assume others are always to blame if they dislike you. We all have defects in character which put off some more than others.
Thanks for chiming in Erin. You are doing decent stuff, but we all have room to learn. Take what we say as constructive criticism. In my post i hi-lighted where you were right on with and things i thot needed more context or were phrased in ways that are at least somewhat misleading.
You often refer top prices, here in the diy world that has much less impact on quality & performance. As well you will find many more ways of a builders needs being satisfied (ie much greater diversity of designs). And exploration of more of the corners of hifi design. More specific and detailed information is often needed, prticualrily as members delve deeper into the hobby. There are guys here every bit as skilled as the designers of commercail prodcuts, are not held back by the restraints of selling into a marketplace so generalizations often don’t go far.
And as to measurement (i have not seen any of yours), nut if you aquired a Klippel you are serious. But measurements only go so far, we still do not understand the human ear/brain system well enuff to really accurately interpret them.
Be nice to se emeasures of DDR and 5-cyle burst distortion as well (since Geddes has shown the traditional way does not prodcue that useful a result [ie little ot no correlation with audibility]) as watefall garphs consistently shown with the time axis in cycles.
Shaped toneburst generator way down the page: https://www.linkwitzlab.com/sys_test.htm
When i got back into diying loudspeakers in the late 90s i started with cheap car speaker swith surprisingly pleasant results.
Keep the vieos coming, and as members post them here expect them to be disected. Take it constructively.
dave
This is misleading. A generalization that falls down here. Cheap does not equate to imadequate XOs.
I m a soundstage/image freak. Even a modest loudspeaker can do whatever is on the software
It depends. Bigger boes are more costly to make disappear. Not a huge issue here, but if you have to put them in cardboard boxes, ship then to a distributer, whoi sends it onto a dealer (that model is breakin gdown as th erinterweb makes it easier tpo sell direct from the “garage”
Tom is a ‘god” much in the same league as Nelosn. Vance writes a real decent basic primer on diy loudspeakers.
Th ephysics of a flat piston are not those of a cone with complex , usually concavish, shapes.
You.can use it as a generalization, much like saying bigger drivers need bigger boxes, the reality is much, much squishier and you have ot pay attention to that when you ar editing.
The cone + dome box.
Much smaller percentage of them here i would wager. Not really worthy of generalization. And a muxh larger concentration of 1-way bookshelves. Abd standmounts of all kinds in much more creative and usefuul shapes when it comes to soundstage/image/diffractuion signature, as well as more adequate contruction to suppress (potential) box resonances from middiying things up.
Can be done with a pulsating 4d sphere where the parts we “see”a 3D pointsource radiating from a point with the approximate acoustic size to energize the air that tramsmits the waves we interpret as sound. But you still have a room.
Can be approximated with WAW, FRs, and (good) Coax+DSP.
dave