Actually, now I thought a little about it, I don't think I want to slightly narrow down the vertical dispersion. Though the vertical dispersion of the tweeter obviously is a low narrower than a normal dome or cone speaker. At the crossover frequency between the midranges and tweeter, ~2 kHz, vertical dispersion is still very strong. It is shown in smaller intervals of 5º but it's still really strong, so I think at that frequency, I think keeping the vertical dispersion of the midranges stronger will actually match better. So I think a MMT will be better then, because e it better preserves the vertical dispersion.
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Why go with fewer bigger drivers? I don't really see any advantage to that. The middle points of the sources will be further apart and they won't be as fast. Actually, I'd rather prefer to go with smaller drivers than the C220-6-222 because they are even faster, will form a tighter packed line source, I could make the cabinet narrower and though the least important factor I think a larger number of 6,5" mid woofers looks cooler than a slightly lower number of 8" mid woofers but that is just me and not that relevant. I would actually really like to use four C173-6-096s instead but unfortunately they don't go nearly deep enough in a closed box. And though it's smaller size four C173-6-191s won't have an advantage in either speed and distortion over the C220-6-222s because of the smaller voice coil and lower quality motor.
I actually looked into pro audio drivers because of their immense speed but I'm already done with them because even the highest quality B&C or BMS or any of those very high quality PA brands drivers actually seem to have surprising levels of distortion though their very high efficiency, even the biggest 21" subs don't go very low and to go low they'll have to be pushed with DSP harder than I want to and also even the best ones around aren't designed to sound particularly like the way you want things to sound for hifi. Or at least not me.
I actually looked into pro audio drivers because of their immense speed but I'm already done with them because even the highest quality B&C or BMS or any of those very high quality PA brands drivers actually seem to have surprising levels of distortion though their very high efficiency, even the biggest 21" subs don't go very low and to go low they'll have to be pushed with DSP harder than I want to and also even the best ones around aren't designed to sound particularly like the way you want things to sound for hifi. Or at least not me.
I talked about an Hornbach-Keele approach with a waveguide crossed low.
I already told you i like bigger diameter driver's sound. It is different than multiple smaller drivers of same membranne area. I thought i gave you the example of B&W when they switched from 1x15" to 2x10", the engineers prefered the sound of the 15" to the 2x10". Ultimately as more is better in the eye of customers marketing departments won and gone the 15...
The distinction you make in the pro drivers vs hifi just show me you never used one of the former, in fact there is situation where there is no border between pro and hifi.
I won't try to convince you but you should try one in real life one day, just to see what they are able to do. And if spec parameters and words of the internet take the comparaison to a real life test.
I already told you i like bigger diameter driver's sound. It is different than multiple smaller drivers of same membranne area. I thought i gave you the example of B&W when they switched from 1x15" to 2x10", the engineers prefered the sound of the 15" to the 2x10". Ultimately as more is better in the eye of customers marketing departments won and gone the 15...
The distinction you make in the pro drivers vs hifi just show me you never used one of the former, in fact there is situation where there is no border between pro and hifi.
I won't try to convince you but you should try one in real life one day, just to see what they are able to do. And if spec parameters and words of the internet take the comparaison to a real life test.
Okay. I'll take your word for it. But then again, I'm already using the biggest models of the driver lines I'm using, All of them. The C168 is the biggest model of the Accuton Cell midrange line. I didn't pick the C90 because first of all, it's smaller. Second of all though it's smaller size, its off-axis response starts to roll of at 2 kHz, which is the same as with the C168 so in frequency response it somehow actually doesn't have any advantage if you're looking to keep the off-axis response as linear as possible. And third of all, I simply don't understand how you're supposed to mount the thing in the baffle but that isn't really relevant.
The C220-6-222s also are the biggest ceramic Accuton mid woofers. They go low enough in a sealed box, have the lowest distortion of any driver of it's size on the market, and it's exceptionally fast.
For the subs, I also have the biggest 32W model Revelator sub. Because it goes the deepest by itself, though its bigger size it's as fast as the 28W and because it has the biggest surface area.
The C220-6-222s also are the biggest ceramic Accuton mid woofers. They go low enough in a sealed box, have the lowest distortion of any driver of it's size on the market, and it's exceptionally fast.
For the subs, I also have the biggest 32W model Revelator sub. Because it goes the deepest by itself, though its bigger size it's as fast as the 28W and because it has the biggest surface area.
Btw Krivium, I really, really appreciate your advice but I'm not going away from the Accuton drivers. I've heard them at shows and a couple of times with different models from Marten at Chattelin and they're definitely my favourite. So we all have our preferences don't we? 🙂
I like subs but in my room, with what my speakers can already do, a sub just doesn't really add that much. With four 9,5" woofers in the room that are quite good at bass from themselves the towers can already go pretty much as low as it gets. And a lot of the very deep stuff I don't even perceive that well because the wavelengths are so much bigger than the room.
On top of that. Even building a medium quality sub with a single 12" Dayton Audio Refenrence series driver will cost me €600,-. At the time I don't have that money and I'm raising money to buy the NAD HP70 headphones first. After that I'm gonna have to buy a laptop. And €600,- at a minimum for a sub that doesn't even really add that much to the system is a too much for me. If I where in a bigger room. I might consider it. But I'm not.
This (highlighted in bold) is a common misconception.
In fact, all else being equal, just to produce the same SPL at any given frequency, the smaller the driver, the longer it has to travel and hence the faster it has to accelerate... BUT, this is just in order to keep up - it does NOT mean that the smaller driver will "sound faster" (whatever that may be misconstrued to mean).
That actually is very interesting. But than still, I'm already using the biggest model, and it suits perfectly.
Instead, a useful analogy is this:
suppose you want to create an air current of a given strength, by using one, or multiple, fans.
And let's take the concept to the extreme: which would you think would do a better job: furiously moving 100 confetti-sized fans, or gently swinging one large fan of the same overall area?
Your current system is pretty much as good as you're going to get with hi-fi drivers. Live dynamics is what you get from pro audio and it's a big deal if you're trying to do better than what you have.
Compare how much power it takes to match the spl of a prosound system cruising at 100w. Distortion and power compression will be through the roof if the drivers are still alive.
What this guy says.
In terms of distortion and overall driver linearity the SB Satori line are literally the best in the world, at least for what they are. The Accuton drivers arent better, especially in regards to distortion. In fact Accuton tend to have rather lacklustre motors compared to the best of what Hifi drivers can do. Accuton make a handful of drivers that are actually worth a look, but on the whole you're better going elsewhere.
As far as hifi drivers go if SB would put their ribbed aluminium cones on their Satori motors then you'd literally have the perfect series of hifi drivers right there.
In other words, the drivers in your current speakers are about as good as it gets. The only thing I dislike is the cone edge/surround resonance between 1-2kHz on the satori mids. This is what a metal cone would solve.
So basically your drivers are some of the best in the world. Your Hypex plate amplifiers include some of the best amplification in the world (Hypex ncores) and then the DSP = the way to go for speaker integration. I mean really you're off to a very good start. Obviously the way you've designed the crossovers is ultimately what's going to set the absolute quality of what this system can provide.
Going pro drivers can give you a dose what hifi drivers usually cannot, but this is only if it's necessary. High sensitivity is always something that's worth striving for though, providing you aren't actually giving anything up (that you don't want to give up) in the process.
If I were you I would want to experiment with things like waveguides and different driver configurations to see how changes in directivity control alter the sound.
You've already got a good example of what basic cones/domes can do. Try making a speaker with a waveguide on the tweeter instead and see what you think to that. Make an open baffle. A cardiod. Try multiple subs. Try and omni speaker. Experiement.
These don't have to expensive either. Just basic but well selected drivers will do. Good proofs of concept on basic drivers are usually all it takes to steer you in a direction you find more pleasing for you as an individual.
I know the Satori drivers are the best measuring around and also sounding depending on how you use them and what you like. But now that I'm starting to better understand my preferences I actually prefer the speed, transparency, detail and potential clarity of hard cone drivers, especially ceramic, offering the best damping, stiffness, lowest mass and potential clarity.
Just taken a look at measurements of the Accuton drivers, or the model that comes closest and actually, I'll be totally honest, the distortion on those things is actually quite laughable, especially considering their price and especially in comparison to the closest matching models of SB-Acoustics, Scan-Speak and Seas. I feel so dumb now and I'm really surprised but man some of these measurements are just horrible. Especially those of the Aluminum Sandwich woofers. the smallest AS168 costs over €500 each up to over €1.250 for the large AS250 and distortion graphs are just a joke even compared to the much less beefy MW19P-4. It does have an advantage below 100 Hz but that's because it's a way lower and much beefier and more powerful motor specifically designed for those frequencies. But still, for that price, and with the way they look, especially those insanely beefy motors, I expected the best performance in the universe. But this is almost like a scam. Put the bigger AS190 or AS250 against a Satori, Revelator or Excel driver of similar Sd and and they're just gonna get absolutely annihilated in any way.
Now I discover this, and I honestly feel kind of dumb, naive and also shocked, I think I might actually rather prefer the magnesium Seas Excel drivers. The motors on those things are very powerful and they are some immensely quick drivers. They have significantly less distortion than the Accuton, though apparently anything has, go low without any problems at all, offer the same kind of very crisp, transparent sound signature though with potentially more snap as I can tell having heard the Grimm LS1Be.
Though they do brake up very quickly and the very big motors will limit soundstage.
Now I discover this, and I honestly feel kind of dumb, naive and also shocked, I think I might actually rather prefer the magnesium Seas Excel drivers. The motors on those things are very powerful and they are some immensely quick drivers. They have significantly less distortion than the Accuton, though apparently anything has, go low without any problems at all, offer the same kind of very crisp, transparent sound signature though with potentially more snap as I can tell having heard the Grimm LS1Be.
Though they do brake up very quickly and the very big motors will limit soundstage.
So I was thinking of this: two W15CH001's for midrange and six W22EX001s for mid bass. Subs will stay Scan-Speak 32W. They're simply unbeatable.
The W15CH001s offer quite exactly the same conical performance as the W15CY001, though they have a tiny motor. This way reflections on the motor are minimized, the ability for the cone to breathe is optimized and so soundstage is optimized. They can go to over 2 kHz which makes them a perfect match with the Mundorf AMT.
The W15CH001s offer quite exactly the same conical performance as the W15CY001, though they have a tiny motor. This way reflections on the motor are minimized, the ability for the cone to breathe is optimized and so soundstage is optimized. They can go to over 2 kHz which makes them a perfect match with the Mundorf AMT.
Mundorf and Beyma make great AMT's. Good choice.
32W is a good driver but expensive for what it is. The BMS 15N850 meaures very similarly in all important measures of linearity but offers more displacement for the same price or less. You can even get 18's that measure closely like the 18TBW100 for even less.
The Seas stuff is good but that's a lateral move from one nice hi-fi driver to another with no real improvement in performance. They are all high quality and will sound more similar than not once crossover and eq is optimized.
Can't deny the sexy looks of hi-fi drivers. For ultimate fidelity I'll choose pro drivers all day long if there is room for them.
Have you taken a look at Troels projects? You might find his insight interesting as he's played with all the big name drivers and various pro audio drivers over the years. Guess which ones make the biggest impressions....
The monstrous Jbl clone ErnieM! 🙂
Threewayaddict, yes you are right about taste/preference: each one his own! This is what make spice of life ( for me).
Don't feel dumb. As you said you liked their sound when you listened to the Accuton drivers, so i would take things the other way around: why spec doesn't follow my impression. Is there other things at play?
I could'nt explain better why i prefer pro drivers than what have been already expressed.
In fact i don't see things like pro vs hifi: a driver is a driver, if it had been engineered in a good way it does have a set of characteristics that are applicable for what i want or not.
Pro audio does have a better behavior ( usually and for serious products) about thermal compression and sensitivity. In my view those are pretty important parameters( : better dynamic behavior).
Yes they usually don't go as low as one could expect (especially for larger diameter) but those are the target of the dedicated market ( you need low to medium box volume for PA to keep cost down in system bulkyness and weight during shipping). Once you know what to do with that this is not nescessarely an issue.
Couple that to high membranne area ( did i say i like multiple large diameter drivers 😉 ...but i'm lucky to have a room that allow this -almost 200m3) so less displacement and you have high dynamic and low distortion.
That said pro driver are not usually good looking ( well it depends some are nice!) and don't enter in the 'audiojewelry' field often so are not well known by mass except by engineer in pro fields and keeners or 'amateurs' ( in one of the french language signification for this word: a initiated connaisseur).
Depends what you are looking for in the end.
Threewayaddict, yes you are right about taste/preference: each one his own! This is what make spice of life ( for me).
Don't feel dumb. As you said you liked their sound when you listened to the Accuton drivers, so i would take things the other way around: why spec doesn't follow my impression. Is there other things at play?
I could'nt explain better why i prefer pro drivers than what have been already expressed.
In fact i don't see things like pro vs hifi: a driver is a driver, if it had been engineered in a good way it does have a set of characteristics that are applicable for what i want or not.
Pro audio does have a better behavior ( usually and for serious products) about thermal compression and sensitivity. In my view those are pretty important parameters( : better dynamic behavior).
Yes they usually don't go as low as one could expect (especially for larger diameter) but those are the target of the dedicated market ( you need low to medium box volume for PA to keep cost down in system bulkyness and weight during shipping). Once you know what to do with that this is not nescessarely an issue.
Couple that to high membranne area ( did i say i like multiple large diameter drivers 😉 ...but i'm lucky to have a room that allow this -almost 200m3) so less displacement and you have high dynamic and low distortion.
That said pro driver are not usually good looking ( well it depends some are nice!) and don't enter in the 'audiojewelry' field often so are not well known by mass except by engineer in pro fields and keeners or 'amateurs' ( in one of the french language signification for this word: a initiated connaisseur).
Depends what you are looking for in the end.
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On ceramic drivers: measurements aren't everything. Just because we know how to measure something doesn't always mean that it's more important than other factors that may be difficult to measure. Many believe that harmonic distortion is not a problem until it is much higher.
Geddes on Distortion perception
I find ceramic drivers to have a certain sharpness or accuracy that is very different from other drivers. Who knows, the good sound could be partly BECAUSE of the distortion. Anyone else prefer vinyl and SET amplification?
I do however agree with some others suggestion that you play with some other speaker types. Line array? OB? My favorite: horns!? Realize that directivity control affects sound much much more than most of the tiny factors people obsess over. It's directivity differences that these other speaker types give you an opportunity to explore. Congratulations on the success you've enjoyed so far! I wish I was as far along as you in skill 20+ years ago when I was starting my diy journey.
Geddes on Distortion perception
I find ceramic drivers to have a certain sharpness or accuracy that is very different from other drivers. Who knows, the good sound could be partly BECAUSE of the distortion. Anyone else prefer vinyl and SET amplification?
I do however agree with some others suggestion that you play with some other speaker types. Line array? OB? My favorite: horns!? Realize that directivity control affects sound much much more than most of the tiny factors people obsess over. It's directivity differences that these other speaker types give you an opportunity to explore. Congratulations on the success you've enjoyed so far! I wish I was as far along as you in skill 20+ years ago when I was starting my diy journey.
I support the idea of trying to make cornerfriendly speakers. If it works out fine it could be usefull for others. Just build them from cheap secondhand drivers. Maybe find at recycle station or red cross shops
Hi all,
Cspieker, i fully agree with your post and analysis. I could ad to it 'which kind of distortion is at play? Second, third, fourth, fifth... seventh? I bet this is a mix of third,5th and 7th which give the feeling of accuracy and details with ceramic drivers.
Other than that yes control of directivity change the rendering. A lot.
Threeway don't let our suggestions take you away of your hypothesis/design line though. This is just suggestions. But keep that in mind if you ever push the trigger to buy things. 😉
I don't remember who said you may not find better through 'hifi' drivers that you already enjoy, but it seems wise to me.
Sometimes the whole is more than the sum of parts and i feel that adaptation to your listening space and smart strategy may be more rewarding than using 'the best parts you can get'.
Cspieker, i fully agree with your post and analysis. I could ad to it 'which kind of distortion is at play? Second, third, fourth, fifth... seventh? I bet this is a mix of third,5th and 7th which give the feeling of accuracy and details with ceramic drivers.
Other than that yes control of directivity change the rendering. A lot.
Threeway don't let our suggestions take you away of your hypothesis/design line though. This is just suggestions. But keep that in mind if you ever push the trigger to buy things. 😉
I don't remember who said you may not find better through 'hifi' drivers that you already enjoy, but it seems wise to me.
Sometimes the whole is more than the sum of parts and i feel that adaptation to your listening space and smart strategy may be more rewarding than using 'the best parts you can get'.
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