Re: Mr Liang 845 amplifier
to be fair, the lundahl, sowter and other known brands would be much higher quality than those in your amp.
you don't have boutique parts (and not so boutique parts like milspec Vishay Dale) which some prefer.
and lastly, the joy of building something that sounds beautiful
BUT the chassis is definitely nice. you can't get anything close unless you have it done in a machine shop.
Stevie342000 said:
to be fair, the lundahl, sowter and other known brands would be much higher quality than those in your amp.
you don't have boutique parts (and not so boutique parts like milspec Vishay Dale) which some prefer.
and lastly, the joy of building something that sounds beautiful
BUT the chassis is definitely nice. you can't get anything close unless you have it done in a machine shop.
Mr Liang Amplifier
Hi
I know exactly what you mean but to be fair for sure but I did not pay Sowter prices either, for what i paid i would not have got the output transformers, I checked £180 + VAT + P & P. A better bet I suspect pricewise would have been Hammond for the transformers but I did not check that.
The internals such as the resistors and capacitors might not be of the highest quality but they are of one in which I can improve them myself, should I feel they need to be changed.
Quite frankly although I am reasonably competant in building valve pre-amps, I am loathe to mess around with an amplifier like this given the lethal voltages that are in there, which is why I did not build one.
I am a student (a mature one I might add), so one of limited income, as a starter amplifier I think this is more than adequate, after all if it serves my purpose then it has dones its job.
As for the quality of components I do think some of them are worth it but a lot of it is in the land of diminishing returns paying a lot of money for not that much overall improvement in cost:returns ratio, in other words it might be worth it to you but I would think more than twice.
One area where I do think improvements can be made is in the power supply department where the large capacitors are by-passed is it with a 0.47uF and and 0.01uF capacitor, I have done this in the past and i did hear an improvement.
The first time I built a pre-amp (hybrid type BC109 and ECC88) I did not believe it until I heard it myself that you could hear the various components burning in, the sound did change.
So who am I do disrepect the issue of component quality at the end of the day there are all kinds of demands on our purse and what we think is or is not a valid upgrade.
I however will be making limited changes to the components in this amplifer, I for one have not seen the inside of it, so how can I comment.
have a nice day
steve in the uk
Hi
I know exactly what you mean but to be fair for sure but I did not pay Sowter prices either, for what i paid i would not have got the output transformers, I checked £180 + VAT + P & P. A better bet I suspect pricewise would have been Hammond for the transformers but I did not check that.
The internals such as the resistors and capacitors might not be of the highest quality but they are of one in which I can improve them myself, should I feel they need to be changed.
Quite frankly although I am reasonably competant in building valve pre-amps, I am loathe to mess around with an amplifier like this given the lethal voltages that are in there, which is why I did not build one.
I am a student (a mature one I might add), so one of limited income, as a starter amplifier I think this is more than adequate, after all if it serves my purpose then it has dones its job.
As for the quality of components I do think some of them are worth it but a lot of it is in the land of diminishing returns paying a lot of money for not that much overall improvement in cost:returns ratio, in other words it might be worth it to you but I would think more than twice.
One area where I do think improvements can be made is in the power supply department where the large capacitors are by-passed is it with a 0.47uF and and 0.01uF capacitor, I have done this in the past and i did hear an improvement.
The first time I built a pre-amp (hybrid type BC109 and ECC88) I did not believe it until I heard it myself that you could hear the various components burning in, the sound did change.
So who am I do disrepect the issue of component quality at the end of the day there are all kinds of demands on our purse and what we think is or is not a valid upgrade.
I however will be making limited changes to the components in this amplifer, I for one have not seen the inside of it, so how can I comment.
have a nice day
steve in the uk
I've seen the similar amps in ebay today and the e-caps and resistors are not even high quality. some noname chinese brand. resistors seems to be generic mox.
but getting such an amp and replacing the parts with better parts might be a good idea for part swapping.
great looks and much better sound (unless there is something wrong with the design)
but getting such an amp and replacing the parts with better parts might be a good idea for part swapping.
great looks and much better sound (unless there is something wrong with the design)
Mr Liang Amplifier
Hi Jarthel
Yes I agree about the quality of components but chances are the no name components are often only rebadged in the west anyhow.
Until this item arrives I am assuming that all is fine with it. If you look at one of my earliers posts on this thread then you will see that there are two versions of this amplifier, one uses a 300B, the other uses a 6P3P (5881) and the design seems fine to me, i bought the later.
I modelled the power supply on duncan amps program for same it wobbles for the first second or two then it settles down to a steady 1039Vd.c., thankfully there is a ht delay circuit involved it is about a 200v swing, which does settle down nicely.
I suspect for the money I paid for this that I got what many people would say I paid for. But I however feel I got more than I paid for in the build quality of that chassis, the transformers seem of an adequate size and in my eyes there seems little wrong with the design.
I do feel all the disrespect given to the Chinese goods as being inferior really does annoy me there are many countries that have their fair share of what I would consider to goods that deserve to be looked at in this way.
I suspect it was much the same thing with the Japanese when they first started to infiltrate the western markets, anyone old enough to comment there.
Just because some of the goods is not up to scratch by Western standards does not mean it is all garbage or should be looked at with suspicion.
What I was looking for was some more constructive criticisms on the sound of the item and any problems encountered relevant to this specific model.
Given that in the west we expect goods to be cheap then in some respects we only have ourselves to blame. Not wanting to play the name or the blame game, the Italians are known for buying only quality goods, they have one or two rather expensive pieces, the French are similar except they call it style. Should we not be learning by their example, if we want cheap then cheap is what we will get and in the long run it will be replaced by another cheap item, when we should have bought the best in the first place.
I am student I do not have a vast amount of money to spend but given that, have I not just done what I said and bought the best I could afford, I know it will have limitations all equipment does.
It was money well spent, in my humble opinion. Still looking for information on how this equipment shapes up soundwise.
thanks
have a nice
steve in the UK
Hi Jarthel
Yes I agree about the quality of components but chances are the no name components are often only rebadged in the west anyhow.
Until this item arrives I am assuming that all is fine with it. If you look at one of my earliers posts on this thread then you will see that there are two versions of this amplifier, one uses a 300B, the other uses a 6P3P (5881) and the design seems fine to me, i bought the later.
I modelled the power supply on duncan amps program for same it wobbles for the first second or two then it settles down to a steady 1039Vd.c., thankfully there is a ht delay circuit involved it is about a 200v swing, which does settle down nicely.
I suspect for the money I paid for this that I got what many people would say I paid for. But I however feel I got more than I paid for in the build quality of that chassis, the transformers seem of an adequate size and in my eyes there seems little wrong with the design.
I do feel all the disrespect given to the Chinese goods as being inferior really does annoy me there are many countries that have their fair share of what I would consider to goods that deserve to be looked at in this way.
I suspect it was much the same thing with the Japanese when they first started to infiltrate the western markets, anyone old enough to comment there.
Just because some of the goods is not up to scratch by Western standards does not mean it is all garbage or should be looked at with suspicion.
What I was looking for was some more constructive criticisms on the sound of the item and any problems encountered relevant to this specific model.
Given that in the west we expect goods to be cheap then in some respects we only have ourselves to blame. Not wanting to play the name or the blame game, the Italians are known for buying only quality goods, they have one or two rather expensive pieces, the French are similar except they call it style. Should we not be learning by their example, if we want cheap then cheap is what we will get and in the long run it will be replaced by another cheap item, when we should have bought the best in the first place.
I am student I do not have a vast amount of money to spend but given that, have I not just done what I said and bought the best I could afford, I know it will have limitations all equipment does.
It was money well spent, in my humble opinion. Still looking for information on how this equipment shapes up soundwise.
thanks
have a nice
steve in the UK
Hello everybody,
I'm new to the forum and also to the world of HI-FI thanks to the 845SE amp from Mr Liang.
And I have very much the impression that it was a terrific deal. No doubt about it.
I'm an eletronical engineer, and when I found this amp through the Web, i felt that i have found what I was looking for.
I'm just surprised how many people have bad impression on this device. Even if the majority had never listened to it. Just a priori feelings.
The schematic of this amp is quite good and even if it's not perfect, nothing come close to it for less than 3 or 4 times more expensive.
I listen to it every night on my Klipsch RF82 and it's a pleasure every time i hear Diana Krall singing for ME in MY room... Too bad there's also the musicians...
All parts inside are high quality, but surely not mystical audiophile over-priced parts...
So yes Steve you've made the best choice for your budget...
I'm new to the forum and also to the world of HI-FI thanks to the 845SE amp from Mr Liang.
And I have very much the impression that it was a terrific deal. No doubt about it.
I'm an eletronical engineer, and when I found this amp through the Web, i felt that i have found what I was looking for.
I'm just surprised how many people have bad impression on this device. Even if the majority had never listened to it. Just a priori feelings.
The schematic of this amp is quite good and even if it's not perfect, nothing come close to it for less than 3 or 4 times more expensive.
I listen to it every night on my Klipsch RF82 and it's a pleasure every time i hear Diana Krall singing for ME in MY room...
Too bad there's also the musicians...All parts inside are high quality, but surely not mystical audiophile over-priced parts...
So yes Steve you've made the best choice for your budget...
Mr Liang Amplifier
Hi Webgelato
This was the kind of response I was looking for as to the people who had already bought this piece of equipment, I knew you were out there.
I agree, there is a lot of tittle tattling on the merits of equipment not heard, not really of any interest in that, sorry guys.
But to comment on most things one should have experience in that issue.
The circuit to me looks fine too, just the same as many others, also I like the option of possibly upgrading it to 300B as well, there is very little in the circuits, except against the original stock versions that the latter with 300B's has slightly bigger output transformers.
I am still not convinced about audiograde components with silly high prices, take the Jenzen capacitors the ones that Angela instruments has rebadged as their own, pretty sure they will be selling that for premium prices.
Yes I know if you want Prada you won't find it on Salford market or if you did you would be very lucky. Sorry to say in the land of hifi the laws of diminishing returns against cost do apply and if you constantly spend your time upgrading the internal components when do you actually sit down and enjoy the music.
I am sure for one that the components in this amplifier are just fine, I suspect they have used good ones too, not the best, but i would not be surprised if they were the same manufacturer/supplier as others but un-rebadged.
Am I being suggesting unscrupulous behavour, can anyone counter otherwise, I am afraid in this world nothing surprises me.
I would however like to hear further constructive comments on this amplfier or the range of Mr Liang Amplifiers, they seem to me to be a bargain one all to often overlooked because of it's parentage in it's country of origin, one they do not deserve, but that is only my opinion, as it has not arrived yet but i am sure I made the right choice in buying this piece of equipment.
Have a nice day all
steve in the UK
Hi Webgelato
This was the kind of response I was looking for as to the people who had already bought this piece of equipment, I knew you were out there.
I agree, there is a lot of tittle tattling on the merits of equipment not heard, not really of any interest in that, sorry guys.
But to comment on most things one should have experience in that issue.
The circuit to me looks fine too, just the same as many others, also I like the option of possibly upgrading it to 300B as well, there is very little in the circuits, except against the original stock versions that the latter with 300B's has slightly bigger output transformers.
I am still not convinced about audiograde components with silly high prices, take the Jenzen capacitors the ones that Angela instruments has rebadged as their own, pretty sure they will be selling that for premium prices.
Yes I know if you want Prada you won't find it on Salford market or if you did you would be very lucky. Sorry to say in the land of hifi the laws of diminishing returns against cost do apply and if you constantly spend your time upgrading the internal components when do you actually sit down and enjoy the music.
I am sure for one that the components in this amplifier are just fine, I suspect they have used good ones too, not the best, but i would not be surprised if they were the same manufacturer/supplier as others but un-rebadged.
Am I being suggesting unscrupulous behavour, can anyone counter otherwise, I am afraid in this world nothing surprises me.
I would however like to hear further constructive comments on this amplfier or the range of Mr Liang Amplifiers, they seem to me to be a bargain one all to often overlooked because of it's parentage in it's country of origin, one they do not deserve, but that is only my opinion, as it has not arrived yet but i am sure I made the right choice in buying this piece of equipment.
Have a nice day all
steve in the UK
Mr Liang 845 Amplifier
Hi Audiodesign
thanks for that, it seems like an interesting design but I for one am not found of designs that use transformers in them, yes I can understand that they might drive the output tubes better and put less of a load on the driving tube in this case an EL34.
But many of them are bandwidth limited but many of todays designs are much better, is it not bad enough that we go back to an old design such as single ended with out adding further complications into the mix with transformers.
I for one can not afford the transformers for this design, so until I could I really should not be saying it is not any good. For me that is a lot of money to spend on some iron and copper to find out it i not a good design.
I am sure it sounds just great, you are much braver than me in building one of these, I for one have twitchy fingers so would probably ended up fried by those lethal volts.
have a nice day
steve in the UK
Hi Audiodesign
thanks for that, it seems like an interesting design but I for one am not found of designs that use transformers in them, yes I can understand that they might drive the output tubes better and put less of a load on the driving tube in this case an EL34.
But many of them are bandwidth limited but many of todays designs are much better, is it not bad enough that we go back to an old design such as single ended with out adding further complications into the mix with transformers.
I for one can not afford the transformers for this design, so until I could I really should not be saying it is not any good. For me that is a lot of money to spend on some iron and copper to find out it i not a good design.
I am sure it sounds just great, you are much braver than me in building one of these, I for one have twitchy fingers so would probably ended up fried by those lethal volts.
have a nice day
steve in the UK
Mr Liang 845 amplifier
Hi Audiodesign
I have seen the circuit before did it not come out of Glass Audio or some such, it is a good design but for me personally, there is limit to what I can afford (this design is one of ones I can not) and the other is there is a limit with what voltages I will personally work with.
Most of the designs over 750V I try to avoid, at least that way if I make a mistake by touching something I should not. You see my reasoning here, if I avoid it then I do not make the mistakes.
You did a wonderful job here and I am the first to commend you on what you did, you are far braver than I.
I have an inbuilt fear of voltages as high as this, once you get to this level they tend to do what they want, you have to be real careful with these things, respect and fear.
I will let you know how the one i got turned out when it arrives.
have a nice day
steve in the UK
Hi Audiodesign
I have seen the circuit before did it not come out of Glass Audio or some such, it is a good design but for me personally, there is limit to what I can afford (this design is one of ones I can not) and the other is there is a limit with what voltages I will personally work with.
Most of the designs over 750V I try to avoid, at least that way if I make a mistake by touching something I should not. You see my reasoning here, if I avoid it then I do not make the mistakes.
You did a wonderful job here and I am the first to commend you on what you did, you are far braver than I.
I have an inbuilt fear of voltages as high as this, once you get to this level they tend to do what they want, you have to be real careful with these things, respect and fear.
I will let you know how the one i got turned out when it arrives.
have a nice day
steve in the UK
Re: Mr Liang 845 Amplifier
I, umm sad to say echoed these same sentiments until something less than a decade ago, to say I was wrong on both counts would be an understatement. I haven't looked at the design in question, but have (designed) devices with all of the offending topologies/components mentioned which are currently in my system and they shall we say supplanted other devices not "hobbled" by the theoretical limitations of interstage transformers or SE operation..
They also measure extremely well at the power levels I typically enjoy. (Bandwidth well beyond the range of my hearing, predominantly second order distortion rising monotonically with power level, slew rates > 10V/uSec.. Great SNR.. Lousy damping factor - designed speakers for that.)
Your concern about safety is valid and I'll not minimize that, but with due care it is possible to design and build something to operate at relatively high voltages. I draw the line somewhere around 1KV - 1.2KV as the insulation issues start to require rather specialized construction techniques. Voltages far lower than this can be lethal if treated inappropriately so it's not a bad idea to read up on safety here.
Just my two cents worth.. Carry on...
Stevie342000 said:
I, umm sad to say echoed these same sentiments until something less than a decade ago, to say I was wrong on both counts would be an understatement. I haven't looked at the design in question, but have (designed) devices with all of the offending topologies/components mentioned which are currently in my system and they shall we say supplanted other devices not "hobbled" by the theoretical limitations of interstage transformers or SE operation..
They also measure extremely well at the power levels I typically enjoy. (Bandwidth well beyond the range of my hearing, predominantly second order distortion rising monotonically with power level, slew rates > 10V/uSec.. Great SNR.. Lousy damping factor - designed speakers for that.)
Your concern about safety is valid and I'll not minimize that, but with due care it is possible to design and build something to operate at relatively high voltages. I draw the line somewhere around 1KV - 1.2KV as the insulation issues start to require rather specialized construction techniques. Voltages far lower than this can be lethal if treated inappropriately so it's not a bad idea to read up on safety here.
Just my two cents worth.. Carry on...
Mr Liang 845 amplifier
Hi Ed
The reasons you mentioned for not working with voltages around or over 1-1KV2 is a valid one, which is why I steer clear of them, I might however be persuaded to build an amplifier with inter-stage coupling transformers but I am pretty sure it will be an 813 push-pull design....as it is so over the top, it uses Llundhal transformers as well, I am sure it would not be cheap.
But I try not to limit myself in my ambitions or my aims, right now I got the best I can afford, when I have graduated from university then I should be in a better position to afford whatever I want. In theory I should be able to earn £1000/day($2000US at the end of last week), I am sure it will on occasion be at this level but it will not be the norm.
I wisely am studying in the environmental sector, one in which there are going to be huge salaries involved as we struggle to become a sustainable society over the next few years, should see me through to retirement age and beyond, I am looking at in theory only working 6 months of the year and taking a holiday the rest, to see the world and to add to my carbon footprint.
So I am not adverse to change but I was aware that there were limitations with using inter-stage transformers, yet alone with using single ended, or push pull. On the design or DIY front I tend to stick to building pre amplifiers, which tend to work at lover voltages, yep they are all dangerous, that is the problem sometimes too people just forget the dangers, oh it only operates at blah de blah and then they go ahead and touch the mains inlet....lethal whether it is 110 or 240V AC.
Well got to run guys, will catch you all later
have a nice sounding day
steve in the UK
Hi Ed
The reasons you mentioned for not working with voltages around or over 1-1KV2 is a valid one, which is why I steer clear of them, I might however be persuaded to build an amplifier with inter-stage coupling transformers but I am pretty sure it will be an 813 push-pull design....as it is so over the top, it uses Llundhal transformers as well, I am sure it would not be cheap.
But I try not to limit myself in my ambitions or my aims, right now I got the best I can afford, when I have graduated from university then I should be in a better position to afford whatever I want. In theory I should be able to earn £1000/day($2000US at the end of last week), I am sure it will on occasion be at this level but it will not be the norm.
I wisely am studying in the environmental sector, one in which there are going to be huge salaries involved as we struggle to become a sustainable society over the next few years, should see me through to retirement age and beyond, I am looking at in theory only working 6 months of the year and taking a holiday the rest, to see the world and to add to my carbon footprint.
So I am not adverse to change but I was aware that there were limitations with using inter-stage transformers, yet alone with using single ended, or push pull. On the design or DIY front I tend to stick to building pre amplifiers, which tend to work at lover voltages, yep they are all dangerous, that is the problem sometimes too people just forget the dangers, oh it only operates at blah de blah and then they go ahead and touch the mains inlet....lethal whether it is 110 or 240V AC.
Well got to run guys, will catch you all later
have a nice sounding day
steve in the UK
Mr Liang 845 Audio Amplifier
Hi Jarthel
In ones defence I did not start this link but mearly continued it, it is in my opinion valid. The said item is or could be referred to as a DIY item, as it is possible that it might need some work, which was what I came here to find out.
If it did need some work, as there was other that had bought it already, I was hoping that they might be able to point me in the right direction.
There is room for improvement in many goods that you buy, they tend to work to a limited budget where compromises and limits have been applied. I tend to think that spending shed loads of money on specialist items is not always money well spent when it should be on selected items, such as the best coupling capacitors that you can afford, buying the best is not always going to work in every circuit, as all the components will inter-act in differing ways in differing designs.
This is what I wished to find out how to improve the sound of the design without completely re-building it and if anyone who has had experience of one of these amplifiers has gone down such a route and if so what they had found out...I was trying to save time, effort, money and resources...not such a bad thing in the current global climate.
Have a nice Day All
steve in the UK
Hi Jarthel
In ones defence I did not start this link but mearly continued it, it is in my opinion valid. The said item is or could be referred to as a DIY item, as it is possible that it might need some work, which was what I came here to find out.
If it did need some work, as there was other that had bought it already, I was hoping that they might be able to point me in the right direction.
There is room for improvement in many goods that you buy, they tend to work to a limited budget where compromises and limits have been applied. I tend to think that spending shed loads of money on specialist items is not always money well spent when it should be on selected items, such as the best coupling capacitors that you can afford, buying the best is not always going to work in every circuit, as all the components will inter-act in differing ways in differing designs.
This is what I wished to find out how to improve the sound of the design without completely re-building it and if anyone who has had experience of one of these amplifiers has gone down such a route and if so what they had found out...I was trying to save time, effort, money and resources...not such a bad thing in the current global climate.
Have a nice Day All
steve in the UK
Visit to Mr. Liang
Having noted that Mr. Liang Audio is located in Wuhan, I had filed away this information in my mind as I visit China quite often. I was in Wuhan for a few days and decided to pay a visit to Mr Liang. A phone call from my local host to Mr Liang and a quick appointment was fixed for the Sunday afternoon. He was very keen to host me and I thought that was very gracious of him particularly on a Sunday.
Wuhan is the rapidly modernizing capital city of Hubei province in central china. It’s a huge metropolis made up of 3 towns Hankou, Hanyang and Wuchang divided by the might Yangtze River.
Mr.Liang’s lives in Wuchan and after driving an hour from my hotel we reached the area where his workshop is located. Parts of Wuhan are more modern and futuristic than Shanghai, but in this Maoist era neighbourhood we had some difficulty in locating Mr.Liang’s address. A call to his mobile and in seconds he hotfooted to the places where we were stranded. He escorted us to his place; again hotfooting as an outrider under the blazing sun. Mr Liang looks a bit like Elvis Presley and certainly demonstrates a vigour that would make a youngster proud.
We finally parked the car a little away and strode thro an alley which I suspect will be soon torn down to make way for those space age glass/steel structure. I was expecting amused stares from the local gentry, but later learned that a foreigner is not a new phenomenon in the area as Mr Liang receives many of them every month.
Mr.Liang’s workshop is quite sizeable considering its location in middle of city. An area of approx 275feet x 150feet is very neatly built up and houses a transformer winding room, a PCB room, one mechanical workshop, one store room, final assembly row with an adjacent packing and dispatch area. An audition room and a small office which also doubles up as the design room rounds up the premises. All areas are clearly marked and tools organized neatly. This being a Sunday only Mr Liang, his wife (I presume) and an office manager were present.
Since Mr Liang speaks only Mandarin, he had requested an English speaking friend Dr. Shouqi Xie who is a Research Professor in the Chinese Academy of Sciences to ease dialogue. In the event I had my own interpreter along, but it was interesting to meet Dr. XIE who is a great audiophile. In fact he is the interface when non Chinese people need to contact Mr.Liang, a job he thoroughly enjoys and performs voluntarily despite his 24x7 schedule.
We quickly got around to discussing Mr Liang’s flagship LS-845-3 SET. This amp uses the Chinese equivalent of 6SJ7 as input and 300B as driver tube to the 845B output. The demo set had its op-point set at a rather hot 1000VDC/90mA. Mr.Liang has been using similar op point for a pair of tube since 2000 and reports no problems. But I think the amps going out to customers may have a slightly lower B+ just to be on the safer side. Changing the bias is easy. Each 845 have nice pot next to it. The bias current is displayed in the round blue glow ammeter in the front panel. They are Chinese military.
The first impression one gets is of the solid build quality. Mr. Liang explained the rationale of choosing this particular layout. The chassis is made of stainless steel and the front fascia is 10mm Aluminium plate. It is made by a company in Guangzhou and due to CNC machinery used the cut, finish and fitting is of excellent standards. Even the internal bracing, angles and brackets are either aluminium or SS. The fasteners appeared to be SS. Out of listed price of RMB 5200 for the amp, just the chassis cost around RMB1200. The RCA input sockets and speakers binding posts are pure copper gold plated and look chunky. Switches, fuses and connectors are of similar quality.
Make no mistakes on this; there is nothing cheap in it. Building a similar product in the west will cost a fortune. Even in China, the batch quantity needs to be sufficiently large considering Stainless Steel is used in construction. I saw quantities of the LS-845-3 bare chassis staked high in the storage area.
Soon we settled down for a longish demo session with his 845 SET accompanied by generous servings of Chinese tea. Source used was a Chinese CDP and own built interconnects. Power supply was maintained with AC conditioner and demo room was treated with a little absorbing material. The amp was wired up to a large 3 way floor stander (I forgot the name - will ask). Other speakers on demo were made by Mr Liang.
I have heard 845 amps earlier most notably being a pair of De Havilland monoblocks with a friend in US a few years ago and I know what the 845 tube is capable. But what I heard was beyond all my expectations. Mr Liang put a Chinese pop CD with mushy lyrics and music. The female vocals and string instrument were completely life like. Difficult passages, such a heavy orchestral background to female vocals, were a charm. We then switched to some faster Chinese pop/rock music which had somewhat more dynamic content. I never expected a SET to have a Bass like a 70’s monster Sansui SS amplifier. But there it was. The bass guitar and drums were shaking the innards of my stomach. The slam and speed was just hard to believe. I was even looking for a hidden subwoofer somewhere! This amp CAN do rock music better than many SS amps. Period.
The imaging was mind boggling. The sweet spot seemed everywhere and you need not necessarily plonk yourself in the middle. The sound was surely mellow and non-fatiguing, but that midrange magic of the 300B or small triode strapped KT66 was surely missing. But I guess an 845 must sound like an 845. I also noticed some sibilants at edges of high frequency which sounded a little unnatural. I believe a buyer may like to experiment with boutique coupling capacitors to address those. Also, I do not know how the Chinese tubes like 6J4P stack up against the western 6SJ7 or for that matter if a NOS 845 will make a noticeable difference over the Chinese 845. But I overall liked the presentation, appearance and audio quality of this excellent amp. Even my companion and interpreter (complete tube strangers) felt moved by the performance.
I had recalled some of the issues raised in the thread about Mr. Liang amps. I opened this thread in his office and let him have a look at this. He was particularly puzzled with issue of overheating mains tranny and mentioned that since last few month they have souped up the VA. I touched the mains tranny of the amp which had been playing for last several hours and it was only warm to touch. I also saw that the safety ground is present and floated from the main chassis. I don’t know about the older amps (that some of poster have) but the one I saw had a PCB and very little wiring. PSU Caps appeared to be generic Taiwanese jobs while the signal coupling caps looked like WIMA red MKP’s.
I asked Mr Liang about his early days. He had been dabbling with tubes since 1970 and made his first amp around that time using Chinese military tubes. I recalled my own early run-ins to those big bang Sansui/Yamaha/Pioneer amps of the 70’s and enquired rather patronizingly if audio was a thing to do in Mao’s China. He seemed surprised that I asked him, because as per him tube amps were preferred even then over the new fangled SS and many models were available to buy. This was new information for me. I was expecting the comrades to stick by a frugal lifestyle; not rock ‘n’ rolling to a PP EL34 hi fi.
Mr Liang made many amplifiers as a DIY’er and finally in 2000 started his own audio company. Hi-fi print media in China is quite vibrant and in his office I saw many trade magazines which covered Mr Liang amps and published their tests results. I was pointed out a list in one of the magazine which had Mr Liang in 6th or 7th place. I think it was a listing of amp makers by the quantity they produced each year. Number one was Cayin.
Finally, after almost 4 hours it was time to say bye. Mr Liang very graciously invited all of us for dinner which I politely declined due to a prior appointment. But we did exchange gifts when parting. I got a pair of those funky blue glow round ammeter.
This longish post almost looks like a sales pitch for Mr Liang. But the man is really a gentle and dedicated bloke. He is nice to a fault and remains a DIY’er at heart. This is not his mainline business, but he seems to be happier doing this. I hope his gets a much wider recognition.
Pics follow
Having noted that Mr. Liang Audio is located in Wuhan, I had filed away this information in my mind as I visit China quite often. I was in Wuhan for a few days and decided to pay a visit to Mr Liang. A phone call from my local host to Mr Liang and a quick appointment was fixed for the Sunday afternoon. He was very keen to host me and I thought that was very gracious of him particularly on a Sunday.
Wuhan is the rapidly modernizing capital city of Hubei province in central china. It’s a huge metropolis made up of 3 towns Hankou, Hanyang and Wuchang divided by the might Yangtze River.
Mr.Liang’s lives in Wuchan and after driving an hour from my hotel we reached the area where his workshop is located. Parts of Wuhan are more modern and futuristic than Shanghai, but in this Maoist era neighbourhood we had some difficulty in locating Mr.Liang’s address. A call to his mobile and in seconds he hotfooted to the places where we were stranded. He escorted us to his place; again hotfooting as an outrider under the blazing sun. Mr Liang looks a bit like Elvis Presley and certainly demonstrates a vigour that would make a youngster proud.
We finally parked the car a little away and strode thro an alley which I suspect will be soon torn down to make way for those space age glass/steel structure. I was expecting amused stares from the local gentry, but later learned that a foreigner is not a new phenomenon in the area as Mr Liang receives many of them every month.
Mr.Liang’s workshop is quite sizeable considering its location in middle of city. An area of approx 275feet x 150feet is very neatly built up and houses a transformer winding room, a PCB room, one mechanical workshop, one store room, final assembly row with an adjacent packing and dispatch area. An audition room and a small office which also doubles up as the design room rounds up the premises. All areas are clearly marked and tools organized neatly. This being a Sunday only Mr Liang, his wife (I presume) and an office manager were present.
Since Mr Liang speaks only Mandarin, he had requested an English speaking friend Dr. Shouqi Xie who is a Research Professor in the Chinese Academy of Sciences to ease dialogue. In the event I had my own interpreter along, but it was interesting to meet Dr. XIE who is a great audiophile. In fact he is the interface when non Chinese people need to contact Mr.Liang, a job he thoroughly enjoys and performs voluntarily despite his 24x7 schedule.
We quickly got around to discussing Mr Liang’s flagship LS-845-3 SET. This amp uses the Chinese equivalent of 6SJ7 as input and 300B as driver tube to the 845B output. The demo set had its op-point set at a rather hot 1000VDC/90mA. Mr.Liang has been using similar op point for a pair of tube since 2000 and reports no problems. But I think the amps going out to customers may have a slightly lower B+ just to be on the safer side. Changing the bias is easy. Each 845 have nice pot next to it. The bias current is displayed in the round blue glow ammeter in the front panel. They are Chinese military.
The first impression one gets is of the solid build quality. Mr. Liang explained the rationale of choosing this particular layout. The chassis is made of stainless steel and the front fascia is 10mm Aluminium plate. It is made by a company in Guangzhou and due to CNC machinery used the cut, finish and fitting is of excellent standards. Even the internal bracing, angles and brackets are either aluminium or SS. The fasteners appeared to be SS. Out of listed price of RMB 5200 for the amp, just the chassis cost around RMB1200. The RCA input sockets and speakers binding posts are pure copper gold plated and look chunky. Switches, fuses and connectors are of similar quality.
Make no mistakes on this; there is nothing cheap in it. Building a similar product in the west will cost a fortune. Even in China, the batch quantity needs to be sufficiently large considering Stainless Steel is used in construction. I saw quantities of the LS-845-3 bare chassis staked high in the storage area.
Soon we settled down for a longish demo session with his 845 SET accompanied by generous servings of Chinese tea. Source used was a Chinese CDP and own built interconnects. Power supply was maintained with AC conditioner and demo room was treated with a little absorbing material. The amp was wired up to a large 3 way floor stander (I forgot the name - will ask). Other speakers on demo were made by Mr Liang.
I have heard 845 amps earlier most notably being a pair of De Havilland monoblocks with a friend in US a few years ago and I know what the 845 tube is capable. But what I heard was beyond all my expectations. Mr Liang put a Chinese pop CD with mushy lyrics and music. The female vocals and string instrument were completely life like. Difficult passages, such a heavy orchestral background to female vocals, were a charm. We then switched to some faster Chinese pop/rock music which had somewhat more dynamic content. I never expected a SET to have a Bass like a 70’s monster Sansui SS amplifier. But there it was. The bass guitar and drums were shaking the innards of my stomach. The slam and speed was just hard to believe. I was even looking for a hidden subwoofer somewhere! This amp CAN do rock music better than many SS amps. Period.
The imaging was mind boggling. The sweet spot seemed everywhere and you need not necessarily plonk yourself in the middle. The sound was surely mellow and non-fatiguing, but that midrange magic of the 300B or small triode strapped KT66 was surely missing. But I guess an 845 must sound like an 845. I also noticed some sibilants at edges of high frequency which sounded a little unnatural. I believe a buyer may like to experiment with boutique coupling capacitors to address those. Also, I do not know how the Chinese tubes like 6J4P stack up against the western 6SJ7 or for that matter if a NOS 845 will make a noticeable difference over the Chinese 845. But I overall liked the presentation, appearance and audio quality of this excellent amp. Even my companion and interpreter (complete tube strangers) felt moved by the performance.
I had recalled some of the issues raised in the thread about Mr. Liang amps. I opened this thread in his office and let him have a look at this. He was particularly puzzled with issue of overheating mains tranny and mentioned that since last few month they have souped up the VA. I touched the mains tranny of the amp which had been playing for last several hours and it was only warm to touch. I also saw that the safety ground is present and floated from the main chassis. I don’t know about the older amps (that some of poster have) but the one I saw had a PCB and very little wiring. PSU Caps appeared to be generic Taiwanese jobs while the signal coupling caps looked like WIMA red MKP’s.
I asked Mr Liang about his early days. He had been dabbling with tubes since 1970 and made his first amp around that time using Chinese military tubes. I recalled my own early run-ins to those big bang Sansui/Yamaha/Pioneer amps of the 70’s and enquired rather patronizingly if audio was a thing to do in Mao’s China. He seemed surprised that I asked him, because as per him tube amps were preferred even then over the new fangled SS and many models were available to buy. This was new information for me. I was expecting the comrades to stick by a frugal lifestyle; not rock ‘n’ rolling to a PP EL34 hi fi.
Mr Liang made many amplifiers as a DIY’er and finally in 2000 started his own audio company. Hi-fi print media in China is quite vibrant and in his office I saw many trade magazines which covered Mr Liang amps and published their tests results. I was pointed out a list in one of the magazine which had Mr Liang in 6th or 7th place. I think it was a listing of amp makers by the quantity they produced each year. Number one was Cayin.
Finally, after almost 4 hours it was time to say bye. Mr Liang very graciously invited all of us for dinner which I politely declined due to a prior appointment. But we did exchange gifts when parting. I got a pair of those funky blue glow round ammeter.
This longish post almost looks like a sales pitch for Mr Liang. But the man is really a gentle and dedicated bloke. He is nice to a fault and remains a DIY’er at heart. This is not his mainline business, but he seems to be happier doing this. I hope his gets a much wider recognition.
Pics follow
Mr Liang Audio Amplifiers
Thank you for such a concise reply to the post, I am sure that will put a lot of dissenters and their doubts to bed.
I have been listening to the amplifier I think for about 1 month now and in that time, I decided to wait until it had burnt in properly and when I had it set up correctly before I posted a reply.
Firstly I must point out that the transformers barely run warm, the toroidal power transformers run the hottest but not so hot that you could not keep you hand on the cage that protects them. The output transformers never get beyond are they warming up or not...in other words you can not tell.
The build quality on this item is second to none....had I purchased this in the Western World it would have cost many times more than what I paid for it and I would not be surprised if I did not get any change out of £5K.
I am currently in the process of selling of the family silver so to speak and the money coming in from selling the excess pieces of stereo systems that I had, will give me the money to do this Amplifier full justice.
As it needs 1.5-2.0 Volts to drive it to full output, it is obvious that driving it from a phono pre-amp and direct from the Cable box is not adequate, however one has an inkling of what the sound is like when you pop on a CD which is direct coupled to one of the other inputs.
Needless to say it sounds stunning, lots of bass, excellent mid-range and fine top end but there is an indication of the 845 sound in the top end....it is not quite as extended as it should be.
Should you run into Mr Liang again or perhaps you could get someone to drop him an email. I am not sure on what mains voltage those transformers are wound for....I am lead to suspect that they are wound for 110V x 2 in series for 220V and in parallel for 110V. This would mean that the amplifier is seeing somewhat more voltage across it's primary.
This does concern me, as this means the heaters on all tubes are over run as it is the HT...which puts the bias out as well. This could be cured simply in my case by using a 3A variac with the 240volts across the whole winding and tapping off the voltage that I require at about 110% of full-scale which is 115%.
The only issue I have is with the bias on the right hand tube I can not get it lower than 85mA, the left hand one is set at 75mA. The right hand one just glows a dull red when you see it at night and when you switch it off....this should be cured by the use of the variac.
The only other changes I have made is to the supplied tubes, I have for now stuck with the bog standard Chinese 845s (could it be I have a dudish one) but have replaced the 6PJ4 with General Electric 6SJ7s and the 6P3P (6L6GC) with new production Tung-Sol 5881.
Worth noting that it backs up my idea of not enough gain, for this to really sing it needs a pre-amp as with the change of tubes there has been a slight loss in gain.
As this is my first time adventure in Single ended land, the only other query I have is with the bias of the tubes....now let me see if I can explain it.
When you turn the bias pot towards the - (neg) this increases the reading on the lovely blue meters. In which direction on the meter will the tubes go as they age....as I am not sure what will happen as the 845s age.
Yes I am aware that this is a DIY Audio group but where does one go when one wants or requires such information, all of these things will have been addressed by others before me.
So just to get in the DIY flavour, I have to add that I will be running this from a Hybrid valve/tranny pre-amp that I built years ago but which is in sore need of being encased. Off the top of my head the tranny is a BC109 which is used in the MC stage of things the rest is a ECC88, one half for phono the other for line duties.
I will keep you all posted any ideas suggestions much appreciated...it is my opinion that the 47K bias pot is of too high a value and should be 25K... as there is not enough range on it I think....short of sticking a meter across the plate (anode) and one of the filament (Heater) terminals to establish exactly what the HT operating value is...however one has found a willing volunteer from across the pennines who is will to stick there hands in there....rather them than me......I am afraid I have to respect the voltages involved here and keep my hands out.
Well I am afriad I have gone on somewhat more than I wished but I am sure I have used the exact number of words needed.
Have a nice day all
ps did I mention that mine is not the 300B version but I do have the circuit diagrams to upgrade should I wish to. Including the latest one which uses a second choke and delay circuit.
Steve in the UK
Great to have such a detailed reply from someone who has visited the actual workshop.
Thank you for such a concise reply to the post, I am sure that will put a lot of dissenters and their doubts to bed.
I have been listening to the amplifier I think for about 1 month now and in that time, I decided to wait until it had burnt in properly and when I had it set up correctly before I posted a reply.
Firstly I must point out that the transformers barely run warm, the toroidal power transformers run the hottest but not so hot that you could not keep you hand on the cage that protects them. The output transformers never get beyond are they warming up or not...in other words you can not tell.
The build quality on this item is second to none....had I purchased this in the Western World it would have cost many times more than what I paid for it and I would not be surprised if I did not get any change out of £5K.
I am currently in the process of selling of the family silver so to speak and the money coming in from selling the excess pieces of stereo systems that I had, will give me the money to do this Amplifier full justice.
As it needs 1.5-2.0 Volts to drive it to full output, it is obvious that driving it from a phono pre-amp and direct from the Cable box is not adequate, however one has an inkling of what the sound is like when you pop on a CD which is direct coupled to one of the other inputs.
Needless to say it sounds stunning, lots of bass, excellent mid-range and fine top end but there is an indication of the 845 sound in the top end....it is not quite as extended as it should be.
Should you run into Mr Liang again or perhaps you could get someone to drop him an email. I am not sure on what mains voltage those transformers are wound for....I am lead to suspect that they are wound for 110V x 2 in series for 220V and in parallel for 110V. This would mean that the amplifier is seeing somewhat more voltage across it's primary.
This does concern me, as this means the heaters on all tubes are over run as it is the HT...which puts the bias out as well. This could be cured simply in my case by using a 3A variac with the 240volts across the whole winding and tapping off the voltage that I require at about 110% of full-scale which is 115%.
The only issue I have is with the bias on the right hand tube I can not get it lower than 85mA, the left hand one is set at 75mA. The right hand one just glows a dull red when you see it at night and when you switch it off....this should be cured by the use of the variac.
The only other changes I have made is to the supplied tubes, I have for now stuck with the bog standard Chinese 845s (could it be I have a dudish one) but have replaced the 6PJ4 with General Electric 6SJ7s and the 6P3P (6L6GC) with new production Tung-Sol 5881.
Worth noting that it backs up my idea of not enough gain, for this to really sing it needs a pre-amp as with the change of tubes there has been a slight loss in gain.
As this is my first time adventure in Single ended land, the only other query I have is with the bias of the tubes....now let me see if I can explain it.
When you turn the bias pot towards the - (neg) this increases the reading on the lovely blue meters. In which direction on the meter will the tubes go as they age....as I am not sure what will happen as the 845s age.
Yes I am aware that this is a DIY Audio group but where does one go when one wants or requires such information, all of these things will have been addressed by others before me.
So just to get in the DIY flavour, I have to add that I will be running this from a Hybrid valve/tranny pre-amp that I built years ago but which is in sore need of being encased. Off the top of my head the tranny is a BC109 which is used in the MC stage of things the rest is a ECC88, one half for phono the other for line duties.
I will keep you all posted any ideas suggestions much appreciated...it is my opinion that the 47K bias pot is of too high a value and should be 25K... as there is not enough range on it I think....short of sticking a meter across the plate (anode) and one of the filament (Heater) terminals to establish exactly what the HT operating value is...however one has found a willing volunteer from across the pennines who is will to stick there hands in there....rather them than me......I am afraid I have to respect the voltages involved here and keep my hands out.
Well I am afriad I have gone on somewhat more than I wished but I am sure I have used the exact number of words needed.
Have a nice day all
ps did I mention that mine is not the 300B version but I do have the circuit diagrams to upgrade should I wish to. Including the latest one which uses a second choke and delay circuit.
Steve in the UK
Great to have such a detailed reply from someone who has visited the actual workshop.
I would be surprised if those transformers were actually wound for 110V/220V if the intent is to sell into the USA and Europe, but sometimes the attention to these details is not quite there. Officially our line voltage is 120V and after harmonization in the EC theoretically your line voltage is 230V. If possible I'd find a convenient ac voltage to measure in the power supply (unloaded if possible) and determine what the primary winding voltage is actually supposed to be.
You don't need to use a variac, you can use a filament transformer to buck the line voltage. Should it truly be the case that the amplifier was designed for 220V you could use a 9V or 10V transformer with a 3 - 4A rating to do the job. Cheap and quick..
You don't need to use a variac, you can use a filament transformer to buck the line voltage. Should it truly be the case that the amplifier was designed for 220V you could use a 9V or 10V transformer with a 3 - 4A rating to do the job. Cheap and quick..
Mr Liang Amplifier
Hi Kevin
Ahhh now you see to bring us in line with Europe nothing changed we were already 240/250V the 230v euro standard has something like a +15% and -8% tolerance or range which means we had to do nothing to comply with regulations otherwise it would have meant the changing of generators or all the step down transformers.
Not sure how the remedy you suggested works. The only real way to find out if it is overvolts is to measure Potential Difference across the 845 from plate to filament.
I suspect I am unduly worrying but I do happen to notice the inconsistencies in the listings for these amplifiers from China.
I know someone who just bought a 2A3 version and it said the tube line up was ECC82/12AU7 all the tubes except the output tubes were International Octal. On the back it had mains switch for changing mains input 120 or 235...now you would have thought that that was made up of 2 120v windings.
So you see what I mean mine might say 240V on the back but is it?
Which is why I was going to use the variac...of course the other reason is if you bring it up slowly you stress very little within the amplifer...no swich on surges.
Have a nice day
Steve in the UK
Hi Kevin
Ahhh now you see to bring us in line with Europe nothing changed we were already 240/250V the 230v euro standard has something like a +15% and -8% tolerance or range which means we had to do nothing to comply with regulations otherwise it would have meant the changing of generators or all the step down transformers.
Not sure how the remedy you suggested works. The only real way to find out if it is overvolts is to measure Potential Difference across the 845 from plate to filament.
I suspect I am unduly worrying but I do happen to notice the inconsistencies in the listings for these amplifiers from China.
I know someone who just bought a 2A3 version and it said the tube line up was ECC82/12AU7 all the tubes except the output tubes were International Octal. On the back it had mains switch for changing mains input 120 or 235...now you would have thought that that was made up of 2 120v windings.
So you see what I mean mine might say 240V on the back but is it?
Which is why I was going to use the variac...of course the other reason is if you bring it up slowly you stress very little within the amplifer...no swich on surges.
Have a nice day
Steve in the UK
Re: Mr Liang Amplifier
Hi Steve,
To buck the voltage as I described find a filament transformer with about the right voltage which you can determine through measurements, btw the best place to make those measurements is on a filament circuit because you know exactly what that voltage should be even without a proper schematic. The plate voltage is hazardous and in any event is not that tightly toleranced. For example if the 845 filament measures 10.5V this is 5% high. Measure your line voltage and divide it by 105% (1.05) and subtract this value from YOUR AC line voltage as measured at that moment. This is the value you need for the secondary. In this example this would yield 12V assuming a 240V nominal line voltage.
Wire a 12V 3 - 5A filament transformer in parallel with the mains, connect the secondary in series (after the primary obviously) with the mains feeding the load. Check to make sure voltage is lower, not higher. IF higher reverse either primary or secondary connections, but not both. I am assuming your ac plug has a fuse in it, this should be about 5A to protect the transformer against overload.
I have used variacs to do this, and found them mechanically noisy, and their construction often raises the mains source impedance significantly and degrades amplifier performance, in some cases audibly.
Stevie342000 said:
Hi Steve,
To buck the voltage as I described find a filament transformer with about the right voltage which you can determine through measurements, btw the best place to make those measurements is on a filament circuit because you know exactly what that voltage should be even without a proper schematic. The plate voltage is hazardous and in any event is not that tightly toleranced. For example if the 845 filament measures 10.5V this is 5% high. Measure your line voltage and divide it by 105% (1.05) and subtract this value from YOUR AC line voltage as measured at that moment. This is the value you need for the secondary. In this example this would yield 12V assuming a 240V nominal line voltage.
Wire a 12V 3 - 5A filament transformer in parallel with the mains, connect the secondary in series (after the primary obviously) with the mains feeding the load. Check to make sure voltage is lower, not higher. IF higher reverse either primary or secondary connections, but not both. I am assuming your ac plug has a fuse in it, this should be about 5A to protect the transformer against overload.
I have used variacs to do this, and found them mechanically noisy, and their construction often raises the mains source impedance significantly and degrades amplifier performance, in some cases audibly.
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