yes I agree with you...I don't know exactly the potential of a fully restored TD-124 but I think they are great!
Nevertheless, this is my line of reasoning, please help me to see if I am thinking wrong.
The main advantage of these vintage tables are the fact that they are either direct drives or idlers with beasty motors.
This allows perfect speed rotation on the most complex passages.
There design was king, so the TT back then were really effective.
Some time has passed and market switched to belt drive. Accordingly to what I have read so far, belts don't match the vintages in that regard.
But time has not passed for nothing. Plinths are better, platter with their bearing are better quieter.
Even the best TD-124 fully restored won't be as good as a $7-10K brand new turntable in that regard.
As a matter of fact many people decide to upgrade their plinths and platter/bearing.
At that point, what is left of the vintage turntable? Exacly the motor and its control and the fact that they are either idler or direct drive.
This tell me that the idea of converting a modern table to a true idler drive with a top of the quality motor and control, is not so stupid.
At the end a vintage table completely redone with new platter bearing and plinth will just do the same job IMHO.
Difference is that, redo a vintage table probably costs if not as much a lot of money and a lot of time.
In my case VPI got back to me saying that transforming my TT in idler is very simple. Just enlarge holes on my motor, purchase a silicon oring and adjust the motor for proper tension and fix everything.
Controller is going to be the one recommended by sq (which I just ordered) and total expense is going to be on the $150 range.
I still think vintage tables have a better motor than my Hurst 300RPM AC Motor. I think I could do better.
So far I haven't gotten any advice on that.
I was also told that 24V AC motors are better, is that even true?
Can anybody here point out a good replacement for my Hurst? I would really appreciate it.
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Actually the belt drive is not a recent arrival (52yrs old) and has been commercially viable for a lot longer than the direct drive. The AR-XA was introduced in 1961, and was the original.
http://home.comcast.net/~vinylnirvana/ar_history_allison.html
Moving on to the TD-124, and Garrard 301/401 - these were a class of machines frequently known as transcription motors, and came without a plinth, arm or cartridge. The purchaser made the decision as to what plinth, arm and cartridge he would purchase for use with machine he had purchased. (Very flexible) Mine for example is installed in a 4 layer slate plinth (80lbs) with a 12" Schick tone arm and Royal N SPU. The combinations are endless.
Belt driven machines are made these days because building idlers (Loricraft does offer the Garrard 501/601 at great cost) and DD requires a level of capitalization and expertise that in large measure no longer exists.
I am not at all sold on the idea that most modern high end tables are better than the best vintage tables or even their equals in a lot of cases. Clearly tables from SME being an exception. (May be others)
http://home.comcast.net/~vinylnirvana/ar_history_allison.html
Moving on to the TD-124, and Garrard 301/401 - these were a class of machines frequently known as transcription motors, and came without a plinth, arm or cartridge. The purchaser made the decision as to what plinth, arm and cartridge he would purchase for use with machine he had purchased. (Very flexible) Mine for example is installed in a 4 layer slate plinth (80lbs) with a 12" Schick tone arm and Royal N SPU. The combinations are endless.
Belt driven machines are made these days because building idlers (Loricraft does offer the Garrard 501/601 at great cost) and DD requires a level of capitalization and expertise that in large measure no longer exists.
I am not at all sold on the idea that most modern high end tables are better than the best vintage tables or even their equals in a lot of cases. Clearly tables from SME being an exception. (May be others)
Well, yeah your set up with slate plinth and arm is ovbiously a killer.
Add VPI to your list. The new Classic 3 smokes the SME 20 in a second in dynamic and transparency wise in a direct comparison
Beside SME arm are way too overrated and are not worth the amount of money they ask (this is not only my opinion).
Anyway, I am still wondering if a 24V AC motor is better than a 115V AC motor and if so why.
On the same family of Hurst motor they make a 24V 300RPM that I could buy for $94 and use along with the controller I am purchasing.
I am thinking that the 115V is just more easy to use because you don't need any special controller, you can just plug that into the regular wall.
Yes making a direct drive would be a lot of capitalization, but I wouldn't see why if it is ALWAYS better than belt drive, why they wouldn't do it. Motor would be more expensive and design wise too....they could just make more expensive table.
So that wouldn't explain why a Clearaudio Statement or any other reference TT for what matters are driven by multiple motors and not Rim drives nor DD.
VPI is one of the few if not only who delivers a fully DD new design on the market! That table retails for $30K and uses same plinth, bearing and platter than my Classic 3.
I know I am not unbiased, but the Classic TT by VPI was a breakthrough design. Their cost to performance ration is unbelievable.
I am hoping that the RIM drive will bring further improvements.
Add VPI to your list. The new Classic 3 smokes the SME 20 in a second in dynamic and transparency wise in a direct comparison
Beside SME arm are way too overrated and are not worth the amount of money they ask (this is not only my opinion).
Anyway, I am still wondering if a 24V AC motor is better than a 115V AC motor and if so why.
On the same family of Hurst motor they make a 24V 300RPM that I could buy for $94 and use along with the controller I am purchasing.
I am thinking that the 115V is just more easy to use because you don't need any special controller, you can just plug that into the regular wall.
Yes making a direct drive would be a lot of capitalization, but I wouldn't see why if it is ALWAYS better than belt drive, why they wouldn't do it. Motor would be more expensive and design wise too....they could just make more expensive table.
So that wouldn't explain why a Clearaudio Statement or any other reference TT for what matters are driven by multiple motors and not Rim drives nor DD.
VPI is one of the few if not only who delivers a fully DD new design on the market! That table retails for $30K and uses same plinth, bearing and platter than my Classic 3.
I know I am not unbiased, but the Classic TT by VPI was a breakthrough design. Their cost to performance ration is unbelievable.
I am hoping that the RIM drive will bring further improvements.
Interesting. Good to know. If I get the 24V I won't need step up transformers. I will think about it.
Question for you:
How do you trim for optimal phase? Do you put a stethoscope and select phase that minimizes mechanical noise?
When you switch from 33 to 45 don't you need a higher voltage than when you go to 33?
My SDS will set a higher voltage.
Also on the controller, once you have programmed the correct frequency for both 33 and 45 and disconnect the USB interface, is there a switch to go from 33 to 45 or do I have to connect to the PC anytime I change vinyl that has different rpm?
I just hold the motor in my hand to feel the vibration, and then select the value in middle the +/- values when i can begin to feel noise. On my motor there is about a 5 degree range when i can't feel anything, so I select the middle value of that range.
There are connections for two momentary switches to select 33 and 45, the circuit logic only requires momentary switches. So just set the correct speed once via the usb interface and then use the physical switches.
You do need a slightly higher voltage for 45, in reality it's only about 2volts more and the 24v motor is happy down to about 18 volts. So there's no issue running 45rpm just over 24v and 33rpm just under. With the motor perfectly trimmed for phase the slight effect of higher voltage on vibration is totally negligible.
I've tried alot of motor controllers in the past five years and owned some very good decks, but this is just better than any of them.
There are connections for two momentary switches to select 33 and 45, the circuit logic only requires momentary switches. So just set the correct speed once via the usb interface and then use the physical switches.
You do need a slightly higher voltage for 45, in reality it's only about 2volts more and the 24v motor is happy down to about 18 volts. So there's no issue running 45rpm just over 24v and 33rpm just under. With the motor perfectly trimmed for phase the slight effect of higher voltage on vibration is totally negligible.
I've tried alot of motor controllers in the past five years and owned some very good decks, but this is just better than any of them.
I like the mat a lot, it's the exact opposite of the sound that you get from an SME with the centre clamp and slightly dished platter. I didn't pay anything for it, YNWOAN and I share the workload on our projects, he does the engineering stuff and I do the electronics builds.
I haven't tried the Resomat. Ynwoan lent one of his mats to Clive, Clive showed it to his friend and a few weeks later- hey presto the Resomat is on sale. Go figure. They use similar principles though the placement of the contact points is very different as is the composition of the mat and the contact points.
Mine is made from laser cut .5 mm carbon fibre sheet and the contact points are metal, it's very low mass. The carbon sheet is really just there to fix the location the contact points, but the composition of the mat does alter the sound a little. Low mass, high stiffness sounded the best out of all the versions Ynwoan tried,carbon, graphite, cardboard, polypropylene, HIPS and a host of other plastic sheet materials.
I haven't tried the solution with the outer clamp and ring, I'm not a big fan of adding any extra weight onto my TT bearing. I would imagine that a periphery ring like that gives a very consistent sound though, and of course it flattens those warps which has to be good. Like anything it's a game of compromises and taste- there are no absolutes in this hobby....
I haven't tried the Resomat. Ynwoan lent one of his mats to Clive, Clive showed it to his friend and a few weeks later- hey presto the Resomat is on sale. Go figure. They use similar principles though the placement of the contact points is very different as is the composition of the mat and the contact points.
Mine is made from laser cut .5 mm carbon fibre sheet and the contact points are metal, it's very low mass. The carbon sheet is really just there to fix the location the contact points, but the composition of the mat does alter the sound a little. Low mass, high stiffness sounded the best out of all the versions Ynwoan tried,carbon, graphite, cardboard, polypropylene, HIPS and a host of other plastic sheet materials.
I haven't tried the solution with the outer clamp and ring, I'm not a big fan of adding any extra weight onto my TT bearing. I would imagine that a periphery ring like that gives a very consistent sound though, and of course it flattens those warps which has to be good. Like anything it's a game of compromises and taste- there are no absolutes in this hobby....
Wight to the platter helps with momentum as it acts a little flywheel.
What clamp and ring do is couple the disc to the platter which is not always a good thing as it will pick up more noise.
My idea would be to use something that decouples but that supports a bit the outside and there nor so hath at clamp and ring can be applied.
I think that this would get both of the worlds again.
Remember, it is pointless to have wonderful speed regulation and low noise motor and beautiful controller if the pick up has to ride on a roller coaster to extract the signal because the vinyl is a bit warped.
Anyway...it is a compromise for the most part like you said....
Regarding the motor.....how do you know when you have enough torque or when you have to turn up a bit the voltage on your motor?
What clamp and ring do is couple the disc to the platter which is not always a good thing as it will pick up more noise.
My idea would be to use something that decouples but that supports a bit the outside and there nor so hath at clamp and ring can be applied.
I think that this would get both of the worlds again.
Remember, it is pointless to have wonderful speed regulation and low noise motor and beautiful controller if the pick up has to ride on a roller coaster to extract the signal because the vinyl is a bit warped.
Anyway...it is a compromise for the most part like you said....
Regarding the motor.....how do you know when you have enough torque or when you have to turn up a bit the voltage on your motor?
Stefano, as long as you run the motor at the recommended voltage you should have enough torque. When you begin to drop the voltage too far you will hear it struggle with the load as it kicks back and locks. My platter and sub-platter weigh 9lb and spin down from 33, with no belt attached, in about 5 seconds. So there's a fairly high MOI there.
I used two small ones, about 70x40mm with 30mm deep fins. I think they dissipate about 10 watts each.
You could probably heatsink them to the case they don't really run very hot.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
You could probably heatsink them to the case they don't really run very hot.
Hi guys,
i translate the software for you:
Please contact me via PM with your email address and i will send the file!
i translate the software for you:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Please contact me via PM with your email address and i will send the file!
Hi guys,
i translate the software for you:
Please contact me via PM with your email address and i will send the file!
Very nice!
Would you be so kind to send me the file at:
stefano_rumori@yahoo.it
Thanks!