Thanks man too much i am very happy about results , but when you say physical laws my problemwhat means ? Means that cant get out this output or what ?Or you should come near 30-140hz @140db, but at +/-6db, in 0,5pi space, and hitting xmax, with the distortion (unlinearity) that it come with
Design type or kind is not the problem. It's physical laws your problem here ^^
EDIT :
Just for fun :
That is 0,5pi response. 1pi is more reallistic, and gives around 135db theorical, and maybe 130db taking compression into acount. Phisical law => you cannot go further speaker caracteristics with any box...
But it just here one way to come near you speakers limits. Others here with real experience of such speaker, tweaking better hornresp should give you more suitable box, but it don't expect to go really more powerfull than that (in spl on this frequency range).
But it just here one way to come near you speakers limits. Others here with real experience of such speaker, tweaking better hornresp should give you more suitable box, but it don't expect to go really more powerfull than that (in spl on this frequency range).
To this design i have combine this ( http://www.eighteensound.it/portals/0/EnclosuresKits/18sound_double18_kit.jpg ) and this box ( http://www.eighteensound.it/Portals/0/EnclosuresKits/18sound_18%20horn%20loaded.pdf ) . Do you belive that this could works with my Beyma and gets max output 135 - 137 db and frequency 30hz and up ? Also recommended woofers from 18 sound for those boxes are similar with mine....
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...in my simulation, it's a offset driver, as super scoop. There's no rear chamber.
It's possible to simulate a rear chamber with hornresp, but i'm only a newbie at hornresp for something like that...i just managed to do something near your specifications, tweaking fast, without optimisation, with a unrealistic 500L rear chamber, and 5500L horn in front. It come close your specification, but again more to 130db range taking in acount compression... And for heat dissipation, closed chamber is not maybe a good idea.
And look at frequency response of the cab...
It's possible to simulate a rear chamber with hornresp, but i'm only a newbie at hornresp for something like that...i just managed to do something near your specifications, tweaking fast, without optimisation, with a unrealistic 500L rear chamber, and 5500L horn in front. It come close your specification, but again more to 130db range taking in acount compression... And for heat dissipation, closed chamber is not maybe a good idea.
And look at frequency response of the cab...
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Hi koutrou,
Did you notice the enclosure size in papasteack's example from Post #80? 1812 Litres. And without a back chamber this is a resonant pipe with the offset driver (OD) mounted into the side.
The simple bass-reflex box from Post #44 looks a lot better if you use 0.5 x Pi as your environment reference. It actually gets close to your target, I'll attach an SPL screen @ Xmax.
You have to decide how to realistically simulate the environment for your application (0.5 x pi = large hard surface corner, e.g.: concrete corner).
18 Sound has a lot of very interesting looking "manifolded" enclosures, but they are designed for specific drivers, and putting another driver into those enclosures take a full design cycle to get from the basic box dimensions to the individual volumes and ducts.
Regards,
Did you notice the enclosure size in papasteack's example from Post #80? 1812 Litres. And without a back chamber this is a resonant pipe with the offset driver (OD) mounted into the side.
The simple bass-reflex box from Post #44 looks a lot better if you use 0.5 x Pi as your environment reference. It actually gets close to your target, I'll attach an SPL screen @ Xmax.
You have to decide how to realistically simulate the environment for your application (0.5 x pi = large hard surface corner, e.g.: concrete corner).
18 Sound has a lot of very interesting looking "manifolded" enclosures, but they are designed for specific drivers, and putting another driver into those enclosures take a full design cycle to get from the basic box dimensions to the individual volumes and ducts.
Regards,
Attachments
with the real dimensions my enclosure is 920 litres (with a close area of the box without it this is 700-750 litres about) ,154cm length , height 62cm and depth 96cm so the results are better also 18 sound driver for manifolded box hase same xmax ,same frequency and about same power , for horn loaded area the recomended 18 sound drivers have same xmax and less power.... so there isnt big problem i think....
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This is beyond "trying to run before learning to walk" and more like "trying to walk a tightrope blindfolded before you can stand up"
@ bitSmascher. Thanks man that is exactly what koutrou trys to do here!!!
@koutrou
I have taken a closer look at the Subs you talk about. Let take out the Martin and the Fohhn out of that listing, cause they are not to copy, as long as you dont get the Driver and also the Amping!
Start with the KV2 Woofer!
135dB sustained output / 137dB peak (using 2 units of VHD 1.21). So not one Woofer, two of them!!!
With two of the Beyma in well designed enclosures and with a good amping/controlling maybe also in reach!
The Nexo:
Its a very loud Bandpass enclosure but with a small bandwith. I would guess that the 143 dB are maybe possible in the area around 50 to 55 maybe 60 Hz! Its what I call a BangBass. It hits you like a hammer just at one frequency, below and above there is not much energy!
The RCF:
Its a simple 18 vented woofer with a build in amp and a digital controlling!
136 dB, maybe yes, at the absolut upper limit, 0.01% before destruction!
And its nothing else as that what I have suggested to you, only with a 21" Driver! And what I have suggest to you is a working and also safe Sub. As long as you use a good amplifier and also a controlling then!
For example a SpeakerPower SP1-3200 and a external DSP-Controller, or other AMP-Modules that are suitable for ProUse!
You do make one big mistake. You look at the Datasheets for the drivers and see for example the Spl of the Beyma, stated with 98.5 dB. Yes it does the 98.5 decibels, but where? When you take a closer look at the Datasheet of the Beyma, you will see that at 100 Hz it drops to 96.5 dB and then down to below 90 dB form 36 Hz down. Its absolutely unimportant what the drivers delivers at 200, 500 or maybe 1 k an up!
Important for you and for that what the Sub should do, is the range between 20 and 100 Hz!!! Because there is its working area!
Or do you want to use the 21" as midrange!!!
@koutrou
I have taken a closer look at the Subs you talk about. Let take out the Martin and the Fohhn out of that listing, cause they are not to copy, as long as you dont get the Driver and also the Amping!
Start with the KV2 Woofer!
135dB sustained output / 137dB peak (using 2 units of VHD 1.21). So not one Woofer, two of them!!!
With two of the Beyma in well designed enclosures and with a good amping/controlling maybe also in reach!
The Nexo:
Its a very loud Bandpass enclosure but with a small bandwith. I would guess that the 143 dB are maybe possible in the area around 50 to 55 maybe 60 Hz! Its what I call a BangBass. It hits you like a hammer just at one frequency, below and above there is not much energy!
The RCF:
Its a simple 18 vented woofer with a build in amp and a digital controlling!
136 dB, maybe yes, at the absolut upper limit, 0.01% before destruction!
And its nothing else as that what I have suggested to you, only with a 21" Driver! And what I have suggest to you is a working and also safe Sub. As long as you use a good amplifier and also a controlling then!
For example a SpeakerPower SP1-3200 and a external DSP-Controller, or other AMP-Modules that are suitable for ProUse!
You do make one big mistake. You look at the Datasheets for the drivers and see for example the Spl of the Beyma, stated with 98.5 dB. Yes it does the 98.5 decibels, but where? When you take a closer look at the Datasheet of the Beyma, you will see that at 100 Hz it drops to 96.5 dB and then down to below 90 dB form 36 Hz down. Its absolutely unimportant what the drivers delivers at 200, 500 or maybe 1 k an up!
Important for you and for that what the Sub should do, is the range between 20 and 100 Hz!!! Because there is its working area!
Or do you want to use the 21" as midrange!!!
...BR vs OD, simulation fight !
As if they where something different ^^
Ok, 0,5pi, OD with the same f3 around 35hz (maybe a bit higher...?) as the BR of post #44, and 628L for 2 drivers VS 460L for the BR with 2 drivers. Running both at xmax=10mm : BR Pmax is 500w, OD Pmax is 800w. OD smoothed with 1,5kg polyfill 🙂
Bandwith X f3 X size X efficiency : only a matter of choice !
BR :
OD :
As if they where something different ^^
Ok, 0,5pi, OD with the same f3 around 35hz (maybe a bit higher...?) as the BR of post #44, and 628L for 2 drivers VS 460L for the BR with 2 drivers. Running both at xmax=10mm : BR Pmax is 500w, OD Pmax is 800w. OD smoothed with 1,5kg polyfill 🙂
Bandwith X f3 X size X efficiency : only a matter of choice !
BR :
OD :
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I see at the Datasheets
20hz-200hz and Beyma is very good to this Frequency
(special 20hz-40hz) , you are righ about
KV2 didnt see that with 2 of them this peak.... Also maybe make cabinets like X1 with small changes....( http://img.webme.com/pic/s/speakers/subwoofer_x1_glas.jpg ) similar with Nexo ( http://gtaust.com/products/nexo/stm/stm-s118/stm-s118-front.jpg ) and Fohhn Audio PS 9 ( http://cdn.soundlightup.com/2014/09/Fohhn_PS-9-principe.jpg )....Also i like low frequency of Nexo if i make something similar not 143 db something like 138-139 db I will be very contented...
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OD results are enough good i think thanks for your help...BR vs OD, simulation fight !
As if they where something different ^^
Ok, 0,5pi, OD with the same f3 around 35hz (maybe a bit higher...?) as the BR of post #44, and 628L for 2 drivers VS 460L for the BR with 2 drivers. Running both at xmax=10mm : BR Pmax is 500w, OD Pmax is 800w. OD smoothed with 1,5kg polyfill 🙂
Bandwith X f3 X size X efficiency : only a matter of choice !
BR :
OD :
what do you think guys is better X1 cabinet or this --> http://wizardaudio.hu/hasznos/hangfal tervek/bass/band pass/pdf/18Sound Kit21.pdf ???
Hi koutrou,
That is a BP6 from 18 Sound. For the Beyma 21PW1400Fe you could use the Hornresp input screen from Post #48, and see if you can get results that suit you. It's a nice box, but will not go from 30Hz to 200Hz.
Regards,
That is a BP6 from 18 Sound. For the Beyma 21PW1400Fe you could use the Hornresp input screen from Post #48, and see if you can get results that suit you. It's a nice box, but will not go from 30Hz to 200Hz.
Regards,
Hi papasteack,
I did not mean to say that the BR looks better than your OD simulation. I meant that even though the box is not changed, the BR @ 0.5 x Pi looks much more impressive than the BR @ 2.0 x Pi, that's what I tried to say. 🙂
The BR does have a size advantage, and is probably better behaved at higher frequencies (?), but, it does have the disadvantage of the much smaller port size, which-by the way-also kills a lot of bandpass designs at high power.
Your Dual OD-QWP (offset driver 1/4 wave pipe) has a much larger output cross-section, but, even the small one is big, and you used a lot of dense stuffing inside. The QWP is a valid approach, and one of the easiest to build.
Regards,
I did not mean to say that the BR looks better than your OD simulation. I meant that even though the box is not changed, the BR @ 0.5 x Pi looks much more impressive than the BR @ 2.0 x Pi, that's what I tried to say. 🙂
The BR does have a size advantage, and is probably better behaved at higher frequencies (?), but, it does have the disadvantage of the much smaller port size, which-by the way-also kills a lot of bandpass designs at high power.
Your Dual OD-QWP (offset driver 1/4 wave pipe) has a much larger output cross-section, but, even the small one is big, and you used a lot of dense stuffing inside. The QWP is a valid approach, and one of the easiest to build.
Regards,
Hi,
Thanks tb46 for confirming again the awesomeness of hornresp : that even only playing (more or less) randomly with hornresp slides, it's possible to simulate things not too bad, even without knowing what the physic behind it ^^
Hornresp is just a awesome tool/toy. So, we say thanks David !
Damien
Thanks tb46 for confirming again the awesomeness of hornresp : that even only playing (more or less) randomly with hornresp slides, it's possible to simulate things not too bad, even without knowing what the physic behind it ^^
Hornresp is just a awesome tool/toy. So, we say thanks David !
Damien
Tapped hooorn raw power wach this http://inlowsound.weebly.com/diy-tapped-horn-sub.html, maybe make this design, not nice but earthquake 🙂 looks like Danley Sound Labs TH20 18hz frequency response TappedHorn.jpg Photo by AudioVoice | Photobucket
Hi koutrou,
Tapped horns have gotten a very good name for PA. Their advantage is higher output v. the normal vented box. Their disadvantage is increased size (over e.g.: bass reflex or transmission line) and reduced bandwidth. Your looking at best at a three octave range, most designs struggle trying to get to 2 octaves. The DTS-20 and Inlow's corner horn are true subwoofers for the very bottom range.
Lots of examples in this forum. Maybe you could rescale Art Welter's Keystone for your driver.
Regards,
Tapped horns have gotten a very good name for PA. Their advantage is higher output v. the normal vented box. Their disadvantage is increased size (over e.g.: bass reflex or transmission line) and reduced bandwidth. Your looking at best at a three octave range, most designs struggle trying to get to 2 octaves. The DTS-20 and Inlow's corner horn are true subwoofers for the very bottom range.
Lots of examples in this forum. Maybe you could rescale Art Welter's Keystone for your driver.
Regards,
How many litres sould be my subwoofer for my driver do you have any idea ? Beyma brand recommended 100 - 250 litres but do you think that this is truth or i can make a biger cabinet for example 500 litres ?
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