Bill Fitzpatrick....
"He dismisses out of hand the idea that cables have directionality and states that inductance can be responsible for a mere fraction of a db in frequency response and not at all responsible for distortion of any kind."
Just the facts, only the facts. But be careful, the snakes around here will hiss and **** on them, and maybe even strike.
"Frank VanAlstine, ceratinly an outspoken critic in the cable debate arena, makes similar assertions."
What's wrong with that guy? Is he ONLY interested in the truth?
"I recently read an article where a group of "golden ears" were put to the test. The testor claimed to be switching cables when in fact he wasn't. The testees could hear a difference. Clearly the testees were influenced by their own expectations and not by real world events."
Ah, you would be referring to the famous(infamous according to 'golden ears') John Dunlavy, would you not? He is a real trickster, fooling those gosh-darned goldies. Interesting, how Dunlavy even admits, that he believe HE hears a difference in cables under sited tests, yet states he can not pick them out in blind tests.
"Not by a long shot am I an expert in transmission lines but I don't see how a few microhenries of inductance can have such a gross effect, as some claim, when down the length of the cable at the speaker end sits several much larger inductances as part of the crossover network. "
Once again--hype, hype and MORE hype. Now, if you were a bat, and were bothered by that signficant attenuation at 100khz....
"I have never heard about or read anything which suggests that speaker cables are a culprit in bad sound except where it was obvious hype intended to sell expensive wire to the unsuspecting and gullible consumer. "
MORE HYPE? NO! IT CAN"T BE! Well, stop speaking all this truth. It's annoying the 'believers'!
"I will happily keep my 12ga. zip cord and I'm not even going to bother to elevate it with those little ceramic cones some are marketing. Neither am I going to buy a Tice product or a green magic marker for my CDs."
Michael Greene would NOT approve of your choices. Don't you know that if you 'tune' your circuit breaker box, you'll have a more *musical experience?
(*musical=fruit-o-matic)
"I am now involved in the design and manufacture of electronic crossover networks. At the onset, we debated the use of op-amps. Why, we concluded, should we worry about a couple of quality opamps when the signal has likely passed through possibly hundreds of 5532s in the recording and mixdown consoles? End of debate."
Well, I am rather satisfied with 4580s myself, as a cheap solution with rather high quality characteristics, for economical applications. However, when comparing premium op amps, such as a select few from Burr Brown and Analog Devices, I can not see how any one can 'diss' the presence of these devices in a circuit. Of course, I still can't see why someone would want to waste lots of time and/or money on 'special' speaker cables that have never proven to do anything 'special', excpet for those 'low inductance' ones with rediculously high capacitance that will send an amp with high damping into oscillation. But, I'm sure I just am not fortunate enough to have those prized 'golden ears' to realize the error of MY ways. Maybe I should seek HELP.
I'm certain that my opinion is not wanted in this discussion, but alas, I care not. I just don't like to see newbies sucked into this blackhole. Oh? Perhaps the golden ears wish me to backup every sentence with a published reference? Nah...no need. If you want THAT, just ask mrtycrafts, eyespy, etc at audioreview, they wll provide you with a nice long bibliography for those inquisitive minds.
-Chris
"He dismisses out of hand the idea that cables have directionality and states that inductance can be responsible for a mere fraction of a db in frequency response and not at all responsible for distortion of any kind."
Just the facts, only the facts. But be careful, the snakes around here will hiss and **** on them, and maybe even strike.
"Frank VanAlstine, ceratinly an outspoken critic in the cable debate arena, makes similar assertions."
What's wrong with that guy? Is he ONLY interested in the truth?
"I recently read an article where a group of "golden ears" were put to the test. The testor claimed to be switching cables when in fact he wasn't. The testees could hear a difference. Clearly the testees were influenced by their own expectations and not by real world events."
Ah, you would be referring to the famous(infamous according to 'golden ears') John Dunlavy, would you not? He is a real trickster, fooling those gosh-darned goldies. Interesting, how Dunlavy even admits, that he believe HE hears a difference in cables under sited tests, yet states he can not pick them out in blind tests.
"Not by a long shot am I an expert in transmission lines but I don't see how a few microhenries of inductance can have such a gross effect, as some claim, when down the length of the cable at the speaker end sits several much larger inductances as part of the crossover network. "
Once again--hype, hype and MORE hype. Now, if you were a bat, and were bothered by that signficant attenuation at 100khz....
"I have never heard about or read anything which suggests that speaker cables are a culprit in bad sound except where it was obvious hype intended to sell expensive wire to the unsuspecting and gullible consumer. "
MORE HYPE? NO! IT CAN"T BE! Well, stop speaking all this truth. It's annoying the 'believers'!
"I will happily keep my 12ga. zip cord and I'm not even going to bother to elevate it with those little ceramic cones some are marketing. Neither am I going to buy a Tice product or a green magic marker for my CDs."
Michael Greene would NOT approve of your choices. Don't you know that if you 'tune' your circuit breaker box, you'll have a more *musical experience?
(*musical=fruit-o-matic)
"I am now involved in the design and manufacture of electronic crossover networks. At the onset, we debated the use of op-amps. Why, we concluded, should we worry about a couple of quality opamps when the signal has likely passed through possibly hundreds of 5532s in the recording and mixdown consoles? End of debate."
Well, I am rather satisfied with 4580s myself, as a cheap solution with rather high quality characteristics, for economical applications. However, when comparing premium op amps, such as a select few from Burr Brown and Analog Devices, I can not see how any one can 'diss' the presence of these devices in a circuit. Of course, I still can't see why someone would want to waste lots of time and/or money on 'special' speaker cables that have never proven to do anything 'special', excpet for those 'low inductance' ones with rediculously high capacitance that will send an amp with high damping into oscillation. But, I'm sure I just am not fortunate enough to have those prized 'golden ears' to realize the error of MY ways. Maybe I should seek HELP.
I'm certain that my opinion is not wanted in this discussion, but alas, I care not. I just don't like to see newbies sucked into this blackhole. Oh? Perhaps the golden ears wish me to backup every sentence with a published reference? Nah...no need. If you want THAT, just ask mrtycrafts, eyespy, etc at audioreview, they wll provide you with a nice long bibliography for those inquisitive minds.
-Chris
Time to pour some gasoline on the fire.....
(You guys knew I couldn't resist...........)
As an engineer who has spent a lot of time in "high-end" audio over the last 20 years or so, I can provide the following answers:
"Do wires and cables sound different?"
Yes.
"How large of a difference: small or huge?"
Small
"Are these differences large enough that the average listener (audiophile) can hear them?"
Depends.
"Could you be more specific, and not vague, as usual?"
Depends whether or not they spent money on them. If yes, then it not only has to sound different, but better. Otherwise, a definite maybe.
"Can you hear the difference?"
Yes, but a better question would be do I care, and what do I do about it. To which the replies are no, and very little. I have better things to do.
"Is there anything that you can conceive doing to wire that justifies spending $$$ on them?"
No. No matter what you do to it, it is still just wire. This is what really gets me mad. People will complain that charging $1000 for a custom electronic crossover is gouging; but these are the same people that will spend twice as much on a speaker cable. I have heard all the sophistry: exotic materials, special design, all that research..........
How much research goes into buying a commercial product, and either putting your name on it or dressing it up a bit so that no one knows what it really is. Oh, I forgot........special little metal boxes with RC networks in them. Cost to make, including labor: $85. Cost to audiophiles: >$2K. (Fact.)
Now........which one is better value for money: custom electronic crossover that someone actually had to do some design work on, or a big fat piece of cable with some overpriced capacitors hung on the end. You tell me.
But if spending $$$ makes you happy, then please feel free to be my guest. We'll both be happy.
Jocko
(You guys knew I couldn't resist...........)
As an engineer who has spent a lot of time in "high-end" audio over the last 20 years or so, I can provide the following answers:
"Do wires and cables sound different?"
Yes.
"How large of a difference: small or huge?"
Small
"Are these differences large enough that the average listener (audiophile) can hear them?"
Depends.
"Could you be more specific, and not vague, as usual?"
Depends whether or not they spent money on them. If yes, then it not only has to sound different, but better. Otherwise, a definite maybe.
"Can you hear the difference?"
Yes, but a better question would be do I care, and what do I do about it. To which the replies are no, and very little. I have better things to do.
"Is there anything that you can conceive doing to wire that justifies spending $$$ on them?"
No. No matter what you do to it, it is still just wire. This is what really gets me mad. People will complain that charging $1000 for a custom electronic crossover is gouging; but these are the same people that will spend twice as much on a speaker cable. I have heard all the sophistry: exotic materials, special design, all that research..........
How much research goes into buying a commercial product, and either putting your name on it or dressing it up a bit so that no one knows what it really is. Oh, I forgot........special little metal boxes with RC networks in them. Cost to make, including labor: $85. Cost to audiophiles: >$2K. (Fact.)
Now........which one is better value for money: custom electronic crossover that someone actually had to do some design work on, or a big fat piece of cable with some overpriced capacitors hung on the end. You tell me.
But if spending $$$ makes you happy, then please feel free to be my guest. We'll both be happy.
Jocko
Here is the 'infamous' collection of newsgroup posts submitted by John Dunlavy in 1997, explaining measured vs. audible differences in cables, and references to his often cited switch tests. Obviously, the validitiy of the data Dunlavy presents is dependant on his honesty. Hardly scientific proof, but a good read none the less.
I would think most people have already come across this link one time or another, but just in case you did not:
http://home.new.rr.com/zaph/audio/johndunlavyonwire.htm
-Chris
I would think most people have already come across this link one time or another, but just in case you did not:
http://home.new.rr.com/zaph/audio/johndunlavyonwire.htm
-Chris
I think the whole point in doing anything at all about cables is to come up with something that will change the signal as little as possible. Everything the signal goes through will change it to some degree. The idea of better sounding cables is absurd. The last thing you want from your cables is to hear them. Another point is that starting with the recording the music is going to be as good as the weakest link in the system. Having better than average cables can only mean something if everything else is better than average too. Most often this is not the case. 16 guage HT wire is as good as any when I am using my old Fisher 400. The fact that I get better soundstaging and all that fun stuff with my modern SET and the isolation transformer, hospital grade plugs on DIY power cords and all the rest of the things I have done could well be all in my mind and it makes a difference because I want it to. Then again enough little things can add up into something that does make a difference. Both ways. Taking a bit of time to make something that will at least not degrade your sound can be worth while if the rest of your system merits it.
The Thatch Man
The Thatch Man
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