Hi, I wonder if any of you fellow DIY members have Modaunt Short Signifers or any tech details of their x-over.
I am in the process of bringing a pair back to life, but I think the modified/upgraded/ semi submerged in adhesive, hardwired x-over is incorrectly wired. The problem seems to be centred around the mid-hf part of xover. It appears to have a 4th order filter for hf section, but the way it's presently wired it has a 3.3uF in each half of the 4th order network. I have scoured the net and can not find any 4th order networks that replicate this, ie, butterworth, linkwitz etc. There is also a 6.8uf capacitor that is presently wired in the midrange roll of section of x-over, which I suspect should really be in 2nd half of high pass filter and the 3.3uF should be where the 6.8 has been wired.This would be more in line with what I have seen in most schematics. The units are nominal 8-ohms and xover frequency 5K.
Opinions, info, would be very much appreciated.
I am in the process of bringing a pair back to life, but I think the modified/upgraded/ semi submerged in adhesive, hardwired x-over is incorrectly wired. The problem seems to be centred around the mid-hf part of xover. It appears to have a 4th order filter for hf section, but the way it's presently wired it has a 3.3uF in each half of the 4th order network. I have scoured the net and can not find any 4th order networks that replicate this, ie, butterworth, linkwitz etc. There is also a 6.8uf capacitor that is presently wired in the midrange roll of section of x-over, which I suspect should really be in 2nd half of high pass filter and the 3.3uF should be where the 6.8 has been wired.This would be more in line with what I have seen in most schematics. The units are nominal 8-ohms and xover frequency 5K.
Opinions, info, would be very much appreciated.
Signifer crossover.
Hi there,
Did you manage to find the info you needed for the Signifer crossover repair? I can send you some pics of an original unit if you haven't had any luck.
Hi there,
Did you manage to find the info you needed for the Signifer crossover repair? I can send you some pics of an original unit if you haven't had any luck.
Hi Jules, I've just seen your message.
I hope it's not too late to take you up on your offer, it would be very much appreciated.
Have you got a pair of the Signifiers in use yourself?
I noticed that on the X-Over board the left and right speaker designations conflict with what I understand is the generally accepted speaker positioning.
What I mean by that is, during most of the research I've done, most people say on mirror image speakers, Mid/Treble units are on the inside, but if you go by the MS x-overs, they would be on the outside.
Any opinions?
Many Thanks
Aug
I hope it's not too late to take you up on your offer, it would be very much appreciated.
Have you got a pair of the Signifiers in use yourself?
I noticed that on the X-Over board the left and right speaker designations conflict with what I understand is the generally accepted speaker positioning.
What I mean by that is, during most of the research I've done, most people say on mirror image speakers, Mid/Treble units are on the inside, but if you go by the MS x-overs, they would be on the outside.
Any opinions?
Many Thanks
Aug
Hi Aug,
I've just got your reply now. I'd be more than happy to send you some pics as I know how frustrating it can be to find out that kind of info on rare gear.
I do indeed have a pair of Signifers that have were in regular use until a friend was playing me some music through his phone and he yanked the 3.5mm plug out of the phone with volume up and promptly fried one of the tweeters. That was a couple of years ago. I'd had the bass units re foamed at Wembley loudspeakers a couple of years before that and had enough time listening to them to realise they were the best speakers I'd ever owned. Sourced replacement matched tweeters but haven't got round to fitting them yet. My plan was to recap the crossovers at some point but one of the crossover mid/top contour controls had also broken to bits (flimsy/brittle plastic construction) and although they work fine running flat I've been putting off getting involved with the repairs due to other stuff going on and having other speakers to use instead. Currently listening to some Goodmans Achromat Sigma's (recapped). They are really superb speakers so that also hasn't hurried me up much to get the big Sigs sorted.
Quite incredibly, last year, someone was selling a pair of midrange units for the Signifers on ebay, and I asked them if they still had the crossovers (which they did) so I managed to get those and the treble units as spares. This was like finding two sets of hens teeth at once! This makes taking pictures of the crossovers much, much easier so when I saw your message I had to reply just in case you hadn't managed to get the info you need.
Regards,
Jules.
I've just got your reply now. I'd be more than happy to send you some pics as I know how frustrating it can be to find out that kind of info on rare gear.
I do indeed have a pair of Signifers that have were in regular use until a friend was playing me some music through his phone and he yanked the 3.5mm plug out of the phone with volume up and promptly fried one of the tweeters. That was a couple of years ago. I'd had the bass units re foamed at Wembley loudspeakers a couple of years before that and had enough time listening to them to realise they were the best speakers I'd ever owned. Sourced replacement matched tweeters but haven't got round to fitting them yet. My plan was to recap the crossovers at some point but one of the crossover mid/top contour controls had also broken to bits (flimsy/brittle plastic construction) and although they work fine running flat I've been putting off getting involved with the repairs due to other stuff going on and having other speakers to use instead. Currently listening to some Goodmans Achromat Sigma's (recapped). They are really superb speakers so that also hasn't hurried me up much to get the big Sigs sorted.
Quite incredibly, last year, someone was selling a pair of midrange units for the Signifers on ebay, and I asked them if they still had the crossovers (which they did) so I managed to get those and the treble units as spares. This was like finding two sets of hens teeth at once! This makes taking pictures of the crossovers much, much easier so when I saw your message I had to reply just in case you hadn't managed to get the info you need.
Regards,
Jules.
Hi Jules, thanks for getting back to me.
You were very lucky picking up those Mordaunt short bits, not sure how I missed them.
Yes, I agree with you, the Signifiers sound great, still not sure about whether xover components are wired right but with your help should be able to clarify.
I like my speakers big, for bandwidth rather than sound levels.
My listening is usually through my Signifers or a pair of B&W DM6s.
I prefer the more dynamic presentation of the MS but still rate the DM6s highly.
They are my longest serving bit of Hifi kit.
I've had them for about 25 years.
You were very lucky picking up those Mordaunt short bits, not sure how I missed them.
Yes, I agree with you, the Signifiers sound great, still not sure about whether xover components are wired right but with your help should be able to clarify.
I like my speakers big, for bandwidth rather than sound levels.
My listening is usually through my Signifers or a pair of B&W DM6s.
I prefer the more dynamic presentation of the MS but still rate the DM6s highly.
They are my longest serving bit of Hifi kit.
I've had them for about 25 years.
Hi Aug,
No problem. Yup, very lucky to find those MS bits for sure. Still can't quite believe it to be honest as they were the first parts in about 5 years to pop up for sale.
I'm with you on bandwidth 100% and big speakers shifting decent amounts of air are the only way to really achieve that at lower volume levels. The DM6's are a model of speaker I would love to hear. I've had DM4's in the past which were good but not dynamic enough for me and a bit clinical. A pal has a pair of DM7's and when run with the right amp they are good. I've had many, many pairs of quality vintage speakers over the years and I have to say that the Goodmans Sigma's are my favourites. I just keep going back to them and that's been against Chartwell PM400's (15 years of ownership), Kef 107's (didn't last that long) and Lecson SP1's. Having the Sigma's recapped with Jantzen standard z caps has been a revelation and the amount of quality bass they produce for their size defies the laws of physics. With the ambient bass unit they'll go below 20hz. They are dynamic speakers for sure and the most non fatiguing speakers I've ever owned.
The big Sigs' however are in a different class for image size and breadth/depth of sound stage though. They are serious monitors.
I run my speakers from classic Japanese power amp set ups from the late 70s/80s that I've had rebuilt or serviced. Currently using a Rotel ra-1412 (fantastic amplifier) but also have an Onkyo M-508/P-308 combo and a Luxman M-02/C-02. Which amp do you run your B&W's from?
I'll get pics done this week but I'm not sure how to upload them here? Any pointers would be great.
J
No problem. Yup, very lucky to find those MS bits for sure. Still can't quite believe it to be honest as they were the first parts in about 5 years to pop up for sale.
I'm with you on bandwidth 100% and big speakers shifting decent amounts of air are the only way to really achieve that at lower volume levels. The DM6's are a model of speaker I would love to hear. I've had DM4's in the past which were good but not dynamic enough for me and a bit clinical. A pal has a pair of DM7's and when run with the right amp they are good. I've had many, many pairs of quality vintage speakers over the years and I have to say that the Goodmans Sigma's are my favourites. I just keep going back to them and that's been against Chartwell PM400's (15 years of ownership), Kef 107's (didn't last that long) and Lecson SP1's. Having the Sigma's recapped with Jantzen standard z caps has been a revelation and the amount of quality bass they produce for their size defies the laws of physics. With the ambient bass unit they'll go below 20hz. They are dynamic speakers for sure and the most non fatiguing speakers I've ever owned.
The big Sigs' however are in a different class for image size and breadth/depth of sound stage though. They are serious monitors.
I run my speakers from classic Japanese power amp set ups from the late 70s/80s that I've had rebuilt or serviced. Currently using a Rotel ra-1412 (fantastic amplifier) but also have an Onkyo M-508/P-308 combo and a Luxman M-02/C-02. Which amp do you run your B&W's from?
I'll get pics done this week but I'm not sure how to upload them here? Any pointers would be great.
J
Hi, we have a lot of similarities in our systems.
I'm presently using Modified Luxman C120/M120 combo.
I've also got a Sony TA-N80ES, which I'll probably sell to raise funds for other bits I want to try.
Also got Chinese 808 Tube Amp and self built Dartzeel Power Amp.
All sound pretty good, but best are the Lux or Sony.
The DM6s are very good.
I've actually replaced bass units with a pair of Dayton Audio coated paper units.
This has improved transient response quite a lot and also integrates more smoothly to the kevlar midrange.
I'm presently using Modified Luxman C120/M120 combo.
I've also got a Sony TA-N80ES, which I'll probably sell to raise funds for other bits I want to try.
Also got Chinese 808 Tube Amp and self built Dartzeel Power Amp.
All sound pretty good, but best are the Lux or Sony.
The DM6s are very good.
I've actually replaced bass units with a pair of Dayton Audio coated paper units.
This has improved transient response quite a lot and also integrates more smoothly to the kevlar midrange.
Signifer crossover pics
Hi,
Big British speakers and vintage Japanese monster amps. A lovely fusion. I had the M-120 and C-120 for a while and loved them. A very reasonably priced C-02 came up on ebay in 2015 so I went for that based on my experience with those and I found a very reasonable M-02 in Germany. Unfortunately that needed a complete overhaul with many caps replaced and solder joints checked/repaired, the power supply on the C-02 was rebuilt at the same time so that ended up being quite an expensive excercise but I'm extremely glad I did that now. Your Sony is quite a device by the looks of the internals, that I would like to hear.
Here are some pics of the Signifer crossovers. Hopefully they are sufficient to help you out. I removed the board from the fascia/control panel so you can see the tone control components. This has been good for me too as I'm going to have to be canny with capacitors and available space on the board and the lower compartment of the cabinet. Let me know if you need anymore shots or specific details or values of bits if you can't see them clearly.
Hi,
Big British speakers and vintage Japanese monster amps. A lovely fusion. I had the M-120 and C-120 for a while and loved them. A very reasonably priced C-02 came up on ebay in 2015 so I went for that based on my experience with those and I found a very reasonable M-02 in Germany. Unfortunately that needed a complete overhaul with many caps replaced and solder joints checked/repaired, the power supply on the C-02 was rebuilt at the same time so that ended up being quite an expensive excercise but I'm extremely glad I did that now. Your Sony is quite a device by the looks of the internals, that I would like to hear.
Here are some pics of the Signifer crossovers. Hopefully they are sufficient to help you out. I removed the board from the fascia/control panel so you can see the tone control components. This has been good for me too as I'm going to have to be canny with capacitors and available space on the board and the lower compartment of the cabinet. Let me know if you need anymore shots or specific details or values of bits if you can't see them clearly.
Attachments
Hi Jules, just saw your message, for some reason diyaudio not sending notifications to my inbox, I'll have to check my settings.
Thanks for the photos, just what I need to check and restore my crossovers.
I'm presently using the 2 Luxman Units, but both have been modified.
The M120 has an external 2kw power supply that plugs into the back of Amplifier and takes over Power Output boards supply duty. Also internally has separate final smoothing section for left and right channels.
The C120 has been been converted to relay operated switching to get over the problem with intermittent switches. Components upgraded and also external power supply.
They both sound great, but I still think the Sony Power Amplifier has the edge in terms of overall presentation. All the details of the Luxman, but with a more richer and effortless delivery.
I'm giving it a few more weeks for all the components in the Luxman to burn in, then I'll compare it with the Sony again to see if I can let the Sony go.
Thanks for the photos, just what I need to check and restore my crossovers.
I'm presently using the 2 Luxman Units, but both have been modified.
The M120 has an external 2kw power supply that plugs into the back of Amplifier and takes over Power Output boards supply duty. Also internally has separate final smoothing section for left and right channels.
The C120 has been been converted to relay operated switching to get over the problem with intermittent switches. Components upgraded and also external power supply.
They both sound great, but I still think the Sony Power Amplifier has the edge in terms of overall presentation. All the details of the Luxman, but with a more richer and effortless delivery.
I'm giving it a few more weeks for all the components in the Luxman to burn in, then I'll compare it with the Sony again to see if I can let the Sony go.