HDCD
Thanks Bill,
I never heard of Arrogon. Thanks for that suggestion. Although HDCD is not my preference but whenever I have a choice between an ordinary CD and HDCD I go for HDCD of course.
As prices of really good CD players are high I even started to think about building by myself, with some help from friends of course, a stand alone converter with a good filter and discrete analog stage.
I'd take the digital output from one of my players and plug the output into converters of my choice and design associated circuits. I'd probably use 2 DACs per channel as in SA11. I was also thinking about getting in touch with Anagram to get the filtering and timing right (Azur 840c and 740c) use Anagram technology. I'd put HDCD circuit there as well but not SACD plus discrete analog stage of course.
Arragon could be a temporary solution as I have a new house to finish (flooring, pergola etc) so my budget in the next couple of years will be pretty limited. I intend to finish only projects for which I have already all parts (Stochino PAs and pioneer rt-909) plus funds for some minor expenditure for some additions. Upgrading my players and Arrogon fit here nicely. Does it use two DACs or one only?
If I had some savings left I'd buy Rythmik Audio subs towards the end of 2008. That is all untill Christmas 2009.
I never thought that for going up from 220V to 240V one would need a transformer. According to older EU standards all equipment should be able to handle from -10% to +20% power line voltage variation (more or less continuous). Or maybe it was the other way round. Would going from 5V to 5.5V DC (typical for many digital circuits) make such a difference?
cheers,
Thanks Bill,
I never heard of Arrogon. Thanks for that suggestion. Although HDCD is not my preference but whenever I have a choice between an ordinary CD and HDCD I go for HDCD of course.
As prices of really good CD players are high I even started to think about building by myself, with some help from friends of course, a stand alone converter with a good filter and discrete analog stage.
I'd take the digital output from one of my players and plug the output into converters of my choice and design associated circuits. I'd probably use 2 DACs per channel as in SA11. I was also thinking about getting in touch with Anagram to get the filtering and timing right (Azur 840c and 740c) use Anagram technology. I'd put HDCD circuit there as well but not SACD plus discrete analog stage of course.
Arragon could be a temporary solution as I have a new house to finish (flooring, pergola etc) so my budget in the next couple of years will be pretty limited. I intend to finish only projects for which I have already all parts (Stochino PAs and pioneer rt-909) plus funds for some minor expenditure for some additions. Upgrading my players and Arrogon fit here nicely. Does it use two DACs or one only?
If I had some savings left I'd buy Rythmik Audio subs towards the end of 2008. That is all untill Christmas 2009.
I never thought that for going up from 220V to 240V one would need a transformer. According to older EU standards all equipment should be able to handle from -10% to +20% power line voltage variation (more or less continuous). Or maybe it was the other way round. Would going from 5V to 5.5V DC (typical for many digital circuits) make such a difference?
cheers,
I thought one of my friends got the Arrogon DAC from an auction at Audio Connections for $300. Another friend likes the DAC so much and he waited in eBay for a few months and finally last month got one for about $300. It was an expensive DAC ten years ago but nobody wants it now. It is not brilliant CD player, but its HDCD decoder is top notch, much superior to the NAD.
I measured 250V on the mains often. I guess the transformer would be able to handle 250V if it can handle 220V, presume the manufacturer has built in some headroom. Note that the Arrogon is an American product and I trust its design and build quality. But, let us assume the output of the transformer was designed to be 20VDC before the regulator that regulates into 15VDC, i.e. 5V across the regulator. A change from 220V to 250V in the primary could yield 22.7VDC before the regulator, i.e. 7.7V across the regulator. It should work, but the regulator would need to dissipate more heat and create more wastes. Provided that the transformer is overrated and the regulator is mounted with sufficient heatsinks, it would have no problem. But, but... you had better on the safe side.
This theory does not apply to tube amps. Because for a heater of 6.3VAC, you would get 7.1VAC on the heater. You will still have the music, but only for a short while before your tube is burnt out. So I would be careful if buying from overseas.
I measured 250V on the mains often. I guess the transformer would be able to handle 250V if it can handle 220V, presume the manufacturer has built in some headroom. Note that the Arrogon is an American product and I trust its design and build quality. But, let us assume the output of the transformer was designed to be 20VDC before the regulator that regulates into 15VDC, i.e. 5V across the regulator. A change from 220V to 250V in the primary could yield 22.7VDC before the regulator, i.e. 7.7V across the regulator. It should work, but the regulator would need to dissipate more heat and create more wastes. Provided that the transformer is overrated and the regulator is mounted with sufficient heatsinks, it would have no problem. But, but... you had better on the safe side.
This theory does not apply to tube amps. Because for a heater of 6.3VAC, you would get 7.1VAC on the heater. You will still have the music, but only for a short while before your tube is burnt out. So I would be careful if buying from overseas.
aragon
Hi Bill,
I think it should be Aragon rather than Arrogon. I checked the web for Arrogon and found no such DAC unit.
If you meant Aragon then it is their last model (D2A2) Aragon built, before being absorbed by Klipsch Audio Technologies, which might be worth consideration. It uses two 20bit BurrBrown DACs and has HDCD module. It was made in 1997-98. About 10 years ago. Pretty old and that is somewhat discouraging.
There is a number of new add on DAC units available from China. I even thought about getting one early next year if I found a good one with at least 2 DACs (at least one per channel) and HDCD capability. So far I haven't found one. No problem to get a unit with single DAC or units without HDCD circuits inbuilt.
I believe all CD players send out 16bit, 44.1kHz output straight from the disc reader so Aragon's D2A2 should be compatible with all CD players.
Is it Aragon d2a2 model your friend has? You say it works very well with NAD c542. If so it should work well with c541i. Does it work well with your SA11 if you play HDCD disc? That is important to know before I start thinking about it. Pity it is so old.
Is it possible to get service manual on that Aragon unit? Would that be possible to upgrade DACs in it to some new 24bit ones without notable changes to the circuit? With the service manual I believe it would be no problem to upgrade PS and the analog section to get the best out of the unit. I would have to change my c541i circuits to get c542 equivalent and the rest would be done by Aragon. I'm already starting to think too much.
cheers,
Hi Bill,
I think it should be Aragon rather than Arrogon. I checked the web for Arrogon and found no such DAC unit.
If you meant Aragon then it is their last model (D2A2) Aragon built, before being absorbed by Klipsch Audio Technologies, which might be worth consideration. It uses two 20bit BurrBrown DACs and has HDCD module. It was made in 1997-98. About 10 years ago. Pretty old and that is somewhat discouraging.
There is a number of new add on DAC units available from China. I even thought about getting one early next year if I found a good one with at least 2 DACs (at least one per channel) and HDCD capability. So far I haven't found one. No problem to get a unit with single DAC or units without HDCD circuits inbuilt.
I believe all CD players send out 16bit, 44.1kHz output straight from the disc reader so Aragon's D2A2 should be compatible with all CD players.
Is it Aragon d2a2 model your friend has? You say it works very well with NAD c542. If so it should work well with c541i. Does it work well with your SA11 if you play HDCD disc? That is important to know before I start thinking about it. Pity it is so old.
Is it possible to get service manual on that Aragon unit? Would that be possible to upgrade DACs in it to some new 24bit ones without notable changes to the circuit? With the service manual I believe it would be no problem to upgrade PS and the analog section to get the best out of the unit. I would have to change my c541i circuits to get c542 equivalent and the rest would be done by Aragon. I'm already starting to think too much.
cheers,
You are right it is Aragon. Although it is old, it is still a nice looking unit and its HDCD decoding is superb. As said, its CD performance is only OK.
I can promise you, in a good system, when you use the Aragon DAC to play the FIM HDCD recording - "Songbirds", track 1, with its HDCD, the sound will send you to heaven. My SA11 playing the same SACD disk can not beat the Aragon playing the HDCD. It may be possible that the HDCD mastering was done better. Only the Aragon would give that type of sound. I tried every other CD players and DACs and none sounded as good as the Aragon. Believe me, its HDCD sound is close to the SACD sound with a good player.
We tried different transports (CD players digital out) and funny, they sound very different. It is most likely related to jitter.
I can promise you, in a good system, when you use the Aragon DAC to play the FIM HDCD recording - "Songbirds", track 1, with its HDCD, the sound will send you to heaven. My SA11 playing the same SACD disk can not beat the Aragon playing the HDCD. It may be possible that the HDCD mastering was done better. Only the Aragon would give that type of sound. I tried every other CD players and DACs and none sounded as good as the Aragon. Believe me, its HDCD sound is close to the SACD sound with a good player.
We tried different transports (CD players digital out) and funny, they sound very different. It is most likely related to jitter.
Aragon
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your answer, but which model is it? Aragon built these CD add ons and other equipment since 1980s. It's last model d2a2 (or one of the last) released in 1997 (second half of 1997 I think) might be worth consideration.
Does your friend have d2a2 model? or some earlier one? Can you play HDCD on your sa11 through Aragon or the digital output on SA11 is not compatible with Aragon input?
I wonder why CD playback is not so good. The first CD player add-ons Aragon released aparently sounded great on CDs in those times. On the other hand the first two had no HDCD capability as they had been designed before HDCD format was introduced and were CD dedidacted. Besides most early CD players sounded dreadful. I know that the first two Aragon decoders used external PSs. D2A2 if I remember correctly had an inbuilt transformer and had to be pluged into the mains.
Did you take a look under the cover? How the PS and the analog output sections look like? Is the latter discrete or op-amp based? And the AC power suply - is it set to 240V or one needs to get a step down transformer? The forme would be convenient but I have a 400VA transformer with 2x55V secondaries so that would not be a problem to use it as a step down transformer to 110V.
I tried to locate a service manual for Aragon CD player add-ons but could not locate one. Problem that company disappeared almost 10 years ago. Anyway, I'd be grateful if you could answer the above questions. Thank you,
cheers and have a nice weekend,
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your answer, but which model is it? Aragon built these CD add ons and other equipment since 1980s. It's last model d2a2 (or one of the last) released in 1997 (second half of 1997 I think) might be worth consideration.
Does your friend have d2a2 model? or some earlier one? Can you play HDCD on your sa11 through Aragon or the digital output on SA11 is not compatible with Aragon input?
I wonder why CD playback is not so good. The first CD player add-ons Aragon released aparently sounded great on CDs in those times. On the other hand the first two had no HDCD capability as they had been designed before HDCD format was introduced and were CD dedidacted. Besides most early CD players sounded dreadful. I know that the first two Aragon decoders used external PSs. D2A2 if I remember correctly had an inbuilt transformer and had to be pluged into the mains.
Did you take a look under the cover? How the PS and the analog output sections look like? Is the latter discrete or op-amp based? And the AC power suply - is it set to 240V or one needs to get a step down transformer? The forme would be convenient but I have a 400VA transformer with 2x55V secondaries so that would not be a problem to use it as a step down transformer to 110V.
I tried to locate a service manual for Aragon CD player add-ons but could not locate one. Problem that company disappeared almost 10 years ago. Anyway, I'd be grateful if you could answer the above questions. Thank you,
cheers and have a nice weekend,
My friends have probably the latest version.
The build quality is quite good. Component quality looks good. It has a double sided PCB and a single NE5534 used in the output stage.
I only briefly worked on it when helping my friend to replace the opamps. I had trouble removing the two NE5534 (one for each channel) so had to take it to another friends place. We installed two sockets, then tried the NE5534, OPA134, AD825 opamps. They all sound very different. the AD825s are still in the player. They are much better than the original Aragon after the opamp upgrade. I reckon I would replace the electrolytic caps as well considering their age.
The build quality is quite good. Component quality looks good. It has a double sided PCB and a single NE5534 used in the output stage.
I only briefly worked on it when helping my friend to replace the opamps. I had trouble removing the two NE5534 (one for each channel) so had to take it to another friends place. We installed two sockets, then tried the NE5534, OPA134, AD825 opamps. They all sound very different. the AD825s are still in the player. They are much better than the original Aragon after the opamp upgrade. I reckon I would replace the electrolytic caps as well considering their age.
aragon
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the info. Most likely it is a d2a2 model but could you check please with your friend. I think it should be written on the front panel or wherever.
Certainly AD825 is a much better op-amp in this case than NE5534. But is it 240V switchable with Australian std power cord already attached or one needs a power plug adaptor or even a step down transformer?
D2A2 is maximum 10 years old (could be as young as 8 years old) so there should be no need to recap it. Electros should work ok in this kind of equipment for about 20 years. However, it might be worth to upgrade some caps to improve the sound quality.
From all reviews and comments I have already read about d2a2 I wonder why its street price was about US$700 in 1998 (RRP was close to one thousand!!!) when apart from very good HDCD playback it did not really shine.
cheers,
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the info. Most likely it is a d2a2 model but could you check please with your friend. I think it should be written on the front panel or wherever.
Certainly AD825 is a much better op-amp in this case than NE5534. But is it 240V switchable with Australian std power cord already attached or one needs a power plug adaptor or even a step down transformer?
D2A2 is maximum 10 years old (could be as young as 8 years old) so there should be no need to recap it. Electros should work ok in this kind of equipment for about 20 years. However, it might be worth to upgrade some caps to improve the sound quality.
From all reviews and comments I have already read about d2a2 I wonder why its street price was about US$700 in 1998 (RRP was close to one thousand!!!) when apart from very good HDCD playback it did not really shine.
cheers,
I would like to have the service manual for NAD 541 and 542. My email is namwong55@yahoo.com.hk
Thanks.
Thanks.
You can find a copy of the NAD C542 service manual at my very small Audio Schematics repository. Is someone has the NAD c541 service manual, email it to me and I will add it to the page.
Hi Guys,
I just got a NAD C542 from eBay a few weeks ago, my first CD Player. Was wondering if someone has any pictures and guides of the mods they did to this player?
I have never done any Audio DIY, so any detailed guides would be much appreciated
Also can anyone recommend a place where I could get my NAD C542 Modified by someone who knows what they are doing I would be happy to pay for their services HIFINUTNUT you seem to know alot about this player, would you be kind enough to help me out?
Thank You All
Dimitry
I just got a NAD C542 from eBay a few weeks ago, my first CD Player. Was wondering if someone has any pictures and guides of the mods they did to this player?
I have never done any Audio DIY, so any detailed guides would be much appreciated
Also can anyone recommend a place where I could get my NAD C542 Modified by someone who knows what they are doing
I would be happy to pay for their services HIFINUTNUT you seem to know alot about this player, would you be kind enough to help me out?Thank You All
Dimitry
c542
Hi Dimitry,
If you do not find anyone to do the mods do them by youself. You need good soldering equipment and digital multimeter.
The first thing to check in your c542 is the laser focus circuit. If your player is an older version you have to replace a few components there. I described these mods brfore.
Otherwise follow instructions in this thread. High quality and sufficiently high capacity electros in PS and filtering bypassed by polypropylenes can make a difference. You might also try very low noise regulators in DAC PS.
After desoldering op-amps solder in sockets. You may try different op-amps then. The best choices will be opa627bp or LM4652. The latter is cheaper and has lower noise. I use these in one of my my preamps and they work fine.
cheers,
Janusz
Hi Dimitry,
If you do not find anyone to do the mods do them by youself. You need good soldering equipment and digital multimeter.
The first thing to check in your c542 is the laser focus circuit. If your player is an older version you have to replace a few components there. I described these mods brfore.
Otherwise follow instructions in this thread. High quality and sufficiently high capacity electros in PS and filtering bypassed by polypropylenes can make a difference. You might also try very low noise regulators in DAC PS.
After desoldering op-amps solder in sockets. You may try different op-amps then. The best choices will be opa627bp or LM4652. The latter is cheaper and has lower noise. I use these in one of my my preamps and they work fine.
cheers,
Janusz
nad c542
Hi clocknad,
Email me directly and I'll mail you the manual. You'll find my address on the first page in this thread.
Turning of c541i into c542 requires some tracks to be cut so it's not a straightforward mod. Do not forget to replace a few parts in the c541i laser control (CD reading) circuits as described earlier in this thread.
In my opinion modification of this player makes sense only if one is to play HDCDs often. Otherwise it's better to sell it and buy a second hand pioneer pd d9 or its cheper sibling pd d6. These are actually SACD players and notably better than nad 542. Beneficial mods to pd d6 are well described at
http://www.passion-tube.fr/sacd-pas...pos-sacd-fr.htm
cheers,
Hi clocknad,
Email me directly and I'll mail you the manual. You'll find my address on the first page in this thread.
Turning of c541i into c542 requires some tracks to be cut so it's not a straightforward mod. Do not forget to replace a few parts in the c541i laser control (CD reading) circuits as described earlier in this thread.
In my opinion modification of this player makes sense only if one is to play HDCDs often. Otherwise it's better to sell it and buy a second hand pioneer pd d9 or its cheper sibling pd d6. These are actually SACD players and notably better than nad 542. Beneficial mods to pd d6 are well described at
http://www.passion-tube.fr/sacd-pas...pos-sacd-fr.htm
cheers,
Hi,
My latest thought was to install a JLH ripple eater onto the NAD.
I think it is going to have massive improvement, sighting that the PSU can be vastly improved over the NAD analogue section.
I tried the JLH in my active line-level XO and it sounded good.
The JLH is easy to build. The schematic can be found in my thread "Comparing Modern Electrolytic Capacitors" under the Electronic Parts section of the forum.
Regards,
Bill
My latest thought was to install a JLH ripple eater onto the NAD.
I think it is going to have massive improvement, sighting that the PSU can be vastly improved over the NAD analogue section.
I tried the JLH in my active line-level XO and it sounded good.
The JLH is easy to build. The schematic can be found in my thread "Comparing Modern Electrolytic Capacitors" under the Electronic Parts section of the forum.
Regards,
Bill
janusz,
My NAD542 was dead! Gone was a dual opa627 that cost $55. Anyway, replaced it with lm4562 ($5) and the CD player works fine. I did not know what caused the damage to the opa627.
The NAD542 actually doesn't have a problem reading discs so I have not done your recommended mod. However, my NAD541i does have a problem reading discs.
Yesterday, I opened up my NAD541i and found the circuit part that is in your mod differs from the NAD542. They are completely different, hence I could not apply the mod to fix the problem.
Do you have the fix to the NAD541i?
Regards,
Bill
My NAD542 was dead! Gone was a dual opa627 that cost $55. Anyway, replaced it with lm4562 ($5) and the CD player works fine. I did not know what caused the damage to the opa627.
The NAD542 actually doesn't have a problem reading discs so I have not done your recommended mod. However, my NAD541i does have a problem reading discs.
Yesterday, I opened up my NAD541i and found the circuit part that is in your mod differs from the NAD542. They are completely different, hence I could not apply the mod to fix the problem.
Do you have the fix to the NAD541i?
Regards,
Bill
I'm successfully convert my C541i to C542. Sound good, but weak in low freq. May be it is the coupling cap (2x10uf clarityCap) cause it weak in bass, but super clear in the mid and high, but it could be the opa625 weak in bass too.
It lool like it is a very simple convert from C541i to 542, by moving stuff around - the 4k7 resistors from mute transistors move up to pin 5 and 6 of the first opamp, adding a 10K between Gnd and after C376, short pin 6 (with 4k7 between) to Agnd, connect pin 5 with DAC out after C376(4k7 in between)
add another resistor 270k parallel with R360 to drop it down to 15k2. remove those coupling cap after the opamp output. NO trace cut needed, and that is the difference between 541i and 542 in the analog section.
It lool like it is a very simple convert from C541i to 542, by moving stuff around - the 4k7 resistors from mute transistors move up to pin 5 and 6 of the first opamp, adding a 10K between Gnd and after C376, short pin 6 (with 4k7 between) to Agnd, connect pin 5 with DAC out after C376(4k7 in between)
add another resistor 270k parallel with R360 to drop it down to 15k2. remove those coupling cap after the opamp output. NO trace cut needed, and that is the difference between 541i and 542 in the analog section.
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