Hi,
I'm using 3 class AB amps for my horn speaker system (two way+subs) and I need another one to eq every sub individually. Summer is already here more or less and temperatures rising... So I thought about buying the Behringer A800 for my subs. It would be two Class AB amps for the tweeter and midbass and two A800 for the subs. Do you think this is a bad idea soundwise? Or no problem at all?
I'm not sure if the A800 is good for high sensitivity speaker. I read that the mids and highs are hollow or clinical. But for the subs this shouldn't be a problem. I want to save some power and heat.
I'm using 3 class AB amps for my horn speaker system (two way+subs) and I need another one to eq every sub individually. Summer is already here more or less and temperatures rising... So I thought about buying the Behringer A800 for my subs. It would be two Class AB amps for the tweeter and midbass and two A800 for the subs. Do you think this is a bad idea soundwise? Or no problem at all?
I'm not sure if the A800 is good for high sensitivity speaker. I read that the mids and highs are hollow or clinical. But for the subs this shouldn't be a problem. I want to save some power and heat.
Pro PA systems often used Peavey class D amplifiers to run bass boxes with Yamaha P2200s class A/B for the mids and highs in the mid to late '80s in Australia. Watch out of phase inversions when mixing amplifiers; not all amplifiers have correct absolute phase. There is also the potential for a digital amplifier to have some latency, or time delay, between input and output which could come into play.
Edit: Actually I think I have got this the wrong way around; the Peavey class D amps weren't considered great for bass.
Edit: Actually I think I have got this the wrong way around; the Peavey class D amps weren't considered great for bass.
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Quite frequently some people confuse distortion with quality in listening tests.
It is important to understand what various types of distortion sound like and how it can impact/influence the sound, something sorely lacking in some of the more opinionated and very subjective posts.
Distortion is not "bad", different distortion characteristics is not "bad". There is no good or bad at all, it's all a matter of preference.
An amplifier with very low noise floor can often come across as "clinical". I would say this is a good thing if you want a more realistic rendition of the original content. a system that is able to faithfully reproduce every little nuance and detail with clinical and honest accuracy is, by definition, of higher quality than a system with higher distortion and therefore more coloration. But it does not mean that either system is "good" or "bad", that would be personal preference.
Personally, I like to be able to hear the noise floor and equipment used in certain recordings, to be able to distinguish finer detail, noise and sounds that perhaps where not meant to be there, or sounds that are lower/hidden in the composition in such a way that most people do not notice them. This requires a low noise floor and a somewhat uncoloured sound signature.
In some scenarios however, we can "cheat" a little. I have made speakers that intentionally distort (mainly h2 and h3, a lot of it) in the bass region when pushed hard, this was to cover certain limitations and makes a perceived "boost" that just sounds more than it is. If you know what to listen for it's amusing just how much distortion there is, but to most people that are completely uninterested in the finer minutiae it just sounds "impressive".
It is important to understand what various types of distortion sound like and how it can impact/influence the sound, something sorely lacking in some of the more opinionated and very subjective posts.
Distortion is not "bad", different distortion characteristics is not "bad". There is no good or bad at all, it's all a matter of preference.
An amplifier with very low noise floor can often come across as "clinical". I would say this is a good thing if you want a more realistic rendition of the original content. a system that is able to faithfully reproduce every little nuance and detail with clinical and honest accuracy is, by definition, of higher quality than a system with higher distortion and therefore more coloration. But it does not mean that either system is "good" or "bad", that would be personal preference.
Personally, I like to be able to hear the noise floor and equipment used in certain recordings, to be able to distinguish finer detail, noise and sounds that perhaps where not meant to be there, or sounds that are lower/hidden in the composition in such a way that most people do not notice them. This requires a low noise floor and a somewhat uncoloured sound signature.
In some scenarios however, we can "cheat" a little. I have made speakers that intentionally distort (mainly h2 and h3, a lot of it) in the bass region when pushed hard, this was to cover certain limitations and makes a perceived "boost" that just sounds more than it is. If you know what to listen for it's amusing just how much distortion there is, but to most people that are completely uninterested in the finer minutiae it just sounds "impressive".
Alright, sounds like the Behringer A800 is for me. I think i like a clinical sounds if it's because of a low noise floor like KaffiMann said. I want to hear every detail that's on a record/track and not the noise from my gear. In fact the noise of my Class AB amps is annoying. I have three different amps and only one has very low noise on my horn driver. The other two were used in midbass and subs.
Phase is something I lack knowledge and experience. It's my first project and I did a lot of measurements. The system plays fine but I don't know if there is something to improve in terms of phase and groupdelay. I watched out for phase cancellation in the frequency response. But that's it already. And I didn't even think about phase problems because of the gear used in the chain.
I think I'll try the A800 for the subs first. When I got the amp at home I can test it also in the mids and highs. If it's okay maybe I'll completely to four A800. When running the speakers 8 hours a day it will save me a lot of power and heat.
@KaffiMann I think you mentioned the Class D amp from IMG Stageline with the Hypex modules built in. Do you think they are better than the A800? From Hypex there are newer and older versions like the HxR series. Do you know which one is used in the IMG?
Phase is something I lack knowledge and experience. It's my first project and I did a lot of measurements. The system plays fine but I don't know if there is something to improve in terms of phase and groupdelay. I watched out for phase cancellation in the frequency response. But that's it already. And I didn't even think about phase problems because of the gear used in the chain.
I think I'll try the A800 for the subs first. When I got the amp at home I can test it also in the mids and highs. If it's okay maybe I'll completely to four A800. When running the speakers 8 hours a day it will save me a lot of power and heat.
@KaffiMann I think you mentioned the Class D amp from IMG Stageline with the Hypex modules built in. Do you think they are better than the A800? From Hypex there are newer and older versions like the HxR series. Do you know which one is used in the IMG?
I was making a general statement regarding sound quality, topology is irrelevant IMO, it's more about what you want to achieve.
Please make note that I do not own a single Behringer product, with the exception of some dynamic microphones.
Hypex/Pascal/Purifi and so on each have their own qualities, any of these would be an improvement over the A800.
Edit:
The IMG line have several different types of amplifiers, the ones most relevant here would be STA-400D and STA-800D, which have Hypex modules, the STA-1000D and STA-2000D have Pascal modules.
The IMG stageline amps are more "value for money" than "ultimate quality", if quality is more your thing perhaps consider ordering some amps from audiophonics.fr
Please make note that I do not own a single Behringer product, with the exception of some dynamic microphones.
Hypex/Pascal/Purifi and so on each have their own qualities, any of these would be an improvement over the A800.
Edit:
The IMG line have several different types of amplifiers, the ones most relevant here would be STA-400D and STA-800D, which have Hypex modules, the STA-1000D and STA-2000D have Pascal modules.
The IMG stageline amps are more "value for money" than "ultimate quality", if quality is more your thing perhaps consider ordering some amps from audiophonics.fr
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Well, of course I like quality stuff. But I'm not ready to pay crazy money for amps. There are far more important things to improve like my interface and room acoustics. At the moment I'm using amps like Alesis RA and Crown Xli. And this is already the maximum price range for me as I need four of them in total. They sound ok to me beside the fact that they are too noisy for high sensitivity drivers.
If the STA-400D is noticeably better than the A800 I'd consider the STA-400D for the mids and highs. But the A800 is hopefully enough for the subs.
Are there any other recommandations in the range of ~200€ for a stereo amp?
If the STA-400D is noticeably better than the A800 I'd consider the STA-400D for the mids and highs. But the A800 is hopefully enough for the subs.
Are there any other recommandations in the range of ~200€ for a stereo amp?
I agree, value for money is the way to go.
Well, cheapest amps with built in dsp from a brand name that are worth mentioning would be the Crown XLS series.
If you like to tinker the TPA3255/51 is ok, but many eventually end up spending more than they would for a STA-400D which is sort of pointkess IMO.
I've been looking at the "t.amp Quadro 500 DSP" on thomann for years, think it could be well worth the money but haven't taken the bold step of clicking the button yet.
In the cheap, low power, 4ch including DSP corner the undisputed champion would be the Zoudio AIO 4ch.
Well, cheapest amps with built in dsp from a brand name that are worth mentioning would be the Crown XLS series.
If you like to tinker the TPA3255/51 is ok, but many eventually end up spending more than they would for a STA-400D which is sort of pointkess IMO.
I've been looking at the "t.amp Quadro 500 DSP" on thomann for years, think it could be well worth the money but haven't taken the bold step of clicking the button yet.
In the cheap, low power, 4ch including DSP corner the undisputed champion would be the Zoudio AIO 4ch.
Regarding low noise power for compression drivers: Expensive.
You're then looking at the Pascal/Purifi and Hypex UcD400/NC500 range with the Purifi probably coming out on top and Pascal not far behind, in the class AB corner we have the Neurochrome (Modulus) composite amps from Tom which would be the heavyweight champion of low noise.
Cheapest in the "Higher Quality" tier is probably the STA-800D (Hypex) STA-1000D (Pascal), but you'd be advised to change the input buffer of the STA-1000D to get the absolute best performance.
Personally I have not changed the input buffer for my STA-2000D, because I have more noise from my source than the DSP unit + amp combo. It is a very low noise system, but when you approach THD+N better than 110db it can be somewhat demanding to maintain the same quality throughout the signal chain.
You're then looking at the Pascal/Purifi and Hypex UcD400/NC500 range with the Purifi probably coming out on top and Pascal not far behind, in the class AB corner we have the Neurochrome (Modulus) composite amps from Tom which would be the heavyweight champion of low noise.
Cheapest in the "Higher Quality" tier is probably the STA-800D (Hypex) STA-1000D (Pascal), but you'd be advised to change the input buffer of the STA-1000D to get the absolute best performance.
Personally I have not changed the input buffer for my STA-2000D, because I have more noise from my source than the DSP unit + amp combo. It is a very low noise system, but when you approach THD+N better than 110db it can be somewhat demanding to maintain the same quality throughout the signal chain.
I have a STA-1000DSP and find it too noisy running my compression drivers (BMS4552Nd 113dB/2,83V) in an active setup, I sit only 1,5 m from the speakers.
Personally I am going for a DIY amp, as the only commercial amp with very low noise I found so far (Benchmark AHB-2) is too expensive and too powerful. All mass produced amps also have too much gain. If I had to buy an amp for the horns i'd try a high powered headphone amp first.
I will get Crown XLS for my subs (and midbass up to ~ 300 Hz), i think these are best price/performance.
Personally I am going for a DIY amp, as the only commercial amp with very low noise I found so far (Benchmark AHB-2) is too expensive and too powerful. All mass produced amps also have too much gain. If I had to buy an amp for the horns i'd try a high powered headphone amp first.
I will get Crown XLS for my subs (and midbass up to ~ 300 Hz), i think these are best price/performance.
If you want to use the amp on one frequency band, make sure it has no extra latency relative to the other amps and drivers. This means if it has a DSP, it should have a bypass function, and if that still goes through the ADC and DAC, the latency of that should be specified.
On the other hand, if the subs can be moved around (not part of the speakers) you could move them to compensate for latency, so a DSP for digital crossover could save you a filter.
On the other hand, if the subs can be moved around (not part of the speakers) you could move them to compensate for latency, so a DSP for digital crossover could save you a filter.
Provided you've already used L-pad to pad down sensitivity with some decent MOX resistors and have a cap on it for protection (these two things are an absolute must with ANY kind of active setup on compression drivers IMO):
Have you changed the input buffer? Are you absolutely certain that the noise isn't coming from the audio interface?
I've chased back the noise in my own system to my audio interface, and I'm quite happy just using the volume pots to lower the input level + noise from the source.
That said, for compression drivers the Modulus 86 would be a better alternative.
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Thanks guys!
I need to think about this a little bit. First I'll measure how much power my amps need. If it's a lot more than a Class D amp I'll consider to invest in quality amps like the Hypex stuff.
Another option is to keep one Class AB amp for the compression driver and replace the other with Class D. With one A800 and one STD-400 I could test both to check the difference in sound quality. I feel like A800 is enough for the subs and STD-400 for midbass. Latency hopefully won't be a problem on both of them.
So far I was planning four amps in total. I have a 8 channel DSP. My room is symmetrical and I'm happy with both front subs on one channel and the back subs on the other (three stereo amps in total). But maybe it can be improved by eq and phase setting for each channel? On the other hand the response is already flat from 30-100Hz...
I need to think about this a little bit. First I'll measure how much power my amps need. If it's a lot more than a Class D amp I'll consider to invest in quality amps like the Hypex stuff.
Another option is to keep one Class AB amp for the compression driver and replace the other with Class D. With one A800 and one STD-400 I could test both to check the difference in sound quality. I feel like A800 is enough for the subs and STD-400 for midbass. Latency hopefully won't be a problem on both of them.
So far I was planning four amps in total. I have a 8 channel DSP. My room is symmetrical and I'm happy with both front subs on one channel and the back subs on the other (three stereo amps in total). But maybe it can be improved by eq and phase setting for each channel? On the other hand the response is already flat from 30-100Hz...
Nope. My compression driver is playing at the "full" sensitivity without any caps or resistors. I thought this is a major advantage compared to passive crossovers. But tbh I'm missing some kind of limiter in my DSP.
KaffiMann, i appreciate the reply.
I don't use a resistor L-pad, but have a protection cap in place. The STA-1000DSP is on bass duty, currently I have a Crown CT4150 running mid + hi (also too noisy).
Please note STA-1000DSP is not the same as STA-1000D, the DSP version uses a frontend from ALLDSP. The noise is there with muted source / turned off source, all the same. My amplifier is not modified at all.
My preference for padding is an autoformer, but I will try to "go fanatic" and do without.
I don't use a resistor L-pad, but have a protection cap in place. The STA-1000DSP is on bass duty, currently I have a Crown CT4150 running mid + hi (also too noisy).
Please note STA-1000DSP is not the same as STA-1000D, the DSP version uses a frontend from ALLDSP. The noise is there with muted source / turned off source, all the same. My amplifier is not modified at all.
My preference for padding is an autoformer, but I will try to "go fanatic" and do without.
Drumberg, you get the advantage of superior control and filters, but you also get the advantage of revealing possible faults to a significantly higher degree with any kind of high SPL driver. Easy way out is padding, and any potential issues are easily sorted with dsp. MOX resistors reign supreme just FYI.
Gatedriver, my bad, I avoided the STA-1000DSP because of various uncertainties. As long as you avoid wirewound resistors it should be good (and very cheap!) to get a pile a decent quality MOX instead of xformers.
Gatedriver, my bad, I avoided the STA-1000DSP because of various uncertainties. As long as you avoid wirewound resistors it should be good (and very cheap!) to get a pile a decent quality MOX instead of xformers.
If you are looking at class D amps for dual subwoofers you might check out the new Lab Gruppen PDX3000. It's not up to the brand's high-performance touring standards (actually Lab Gruppen was bought by the parent company of Behringer and they released this amplifier as an entry level item) but it has 2X 1000W channels @ 4 ohm plus DSP and seems to be a good step up from the Behringer NX series. Being a "pro" unit, it does have a fan, but if you aren't pushing it the noise might be acceptable. I have one of these, and I wish I could tell you more about how it performs but I haven't plugged it in yet...