hi all,
i've had a set of really well thought-out MTMWW speakers using some really great drivers. have been happy for a couple years. i recently bought a moderately high-end 2-way Satori kit and once built, replaced my big floor-standers. the one thing i noticed is that the big 'uns seem to sound somewhat smeared in comparison in the upper midrange/low treble and i can't figure out why. i really like both sets and would like to keep the designers as anonymous as possible and focus on what might cause this in the bigger speakers. my original thought was that 'aligning' all the drivers in the big speakers might introduce the potential for this condition more than a simple 2-way.
any thoughts?
thanks as always!
Scott
i've had a set of really well thought-out MTMWW speakers using some really great drivers. have been happy for a couple years. i recently bought a moderately high-end 2-way Satori kit and once built, replaced my big floor-standers. the one thing i noticed is that the big 'uns seem to sound somewhat smeared in comparison in the upper midrange/low treble and i can't figure out why. i really like both sets and would like to keep the designers as anonymous as possible and focus on what might cause this in the bigger speakers. my original thought was that 'aligning' all the drivers in the big speakers might introduce the potential for this condition more than a simple 2-way.
any thoughts?
thanks as always!
Scott
Upper mid / low treble is presumably the crossover region. Do the Satoris have steeper crossover slopes than your previous speakers? I ask because "smeared" is just the word I would use to describe the original sound of my speakers before moving to higher-order crossovers. Of course this can solve some problems while creating others; just a suggestion.
-- Jim
Usual multi-way speakers do smear impulses in time. The response from tweeter, mid and woofer arrive successively instead of simultaneously. That's the fundamental flaw (or imperfection) of the concept. A 2-way speaker with nearly first order crossover and time alignment (for example Jeff Bagby's Kairos) is superior in this respect.
thanks all!
Sreten,
boy howdy on that one...
Jim,
that's what i was suspecting and the original slope was 1st order on the mids, since i switched to a 2nd order, it has been noticeably better, but is still there ever so slightly.
Dissi,
your observations are exactly what i'm finding. what's odd is that the other speaker has had thorough design considerations wrt time-alignment, phase, etc. maybe it is just a fundamental trade-off with that multi-speaker design approach.
to be clear, the difference is subtle, but it just got me to thinking about the two approaches.
cheers,
Scott
Sreten,
boy howdy on that one...
Jim,
that's what i was suspecting and the original slope was 1st order on the mids, since i switched to a 2nd order, it has been noticeably better, but is still there ever so slightly.
Dissi,
your observations are exactly what i'm finding. what's odd is that the other speaker has had thorough design considerations wrt time-alignment, phase, etc. maybe it is just a fundamental trade-off with that multi-speaker design approach.
to be clear, the difference is subtle, but it just got me to thinking about the two approaches.
cheers,
Scott
Smearing could be due to phase error in crossover. This causes the drivers to play the same freq but not in phase, so they smear the details like two singers not articulating together. That you heard improvement when changing the slope of the filter suggests phase could be the problem because changing the slope of only one driver significantly changes the phase interaction of the drivers through the xo band - perhaps unflattening the amplitude response a little while improving phase coherency a little.
With drivers like Satori with very good behavior over very wide bandwidth, it is possible to have crossover which better maintains phase coherency thru the XO band. With lesser drivers the bad behavior incurred from pushing them closer to their freq limits causes phase issues when unsymmetrical filters are needed to achieve flat FR.
If you are referring to Kairos design, it goes even further than phase coherent. The sloped baffle and natural rolloff of the tweeter combine with Jeff's crossover design to allow most of the midrange and low treble to be pseudo linear phase, meaning phase does not rotate through the midrange. Few speakers can do this, Danley horn is the only one I can think of. This linear phase sounds like a single driver speaker, extremely coherent, extremely natural like live music. People use FIR based DSP crossovers to achieve perfectly linear phase crossovers and it sounds incredible, like crystal clear live music.
Kairos also has shallow symmetric 2nd order filter slopes sounding more open than 4th order XOs, and very high quality drivers providing low distortion, strong motors for great details, and natural sounding carbon based (pulp and silk) diaphragms so it is a very special design, so not too many other speakers can compare. I recently sold my pair of revel f208s, with very well designed crossovers, because they couldn't hold a candle to the Kairos, despite better bass extension.
With drivers like Satori with very good behavior over very wide bandwidth, it is possible to have crossover which better maintains phase coherency thru the XO band. With lesser drivers the bad behavior incurred from pushing them closer to their freq limits causes phase issues when unsymmetrical filters are needed to achieve flat FR.
If you are referring to Kairos design, it goes even further than phase coherent. The sloped baffle and natural rolloff of the tweeter combine with Jeff's crossover design to allow most of the midrange and low treble to be pseudo linear phase, meaning phase does not rotate through the midrange. Few speakers can do this, Danley horn is the only one I can think of. This linear phase sounds like a single driver speaker, extremely coherent, extremely natural like live music. People use FIR based DSP crossovers to achieve perfectly linear phase crossovers and it sounds incredible, like crystal clear live music.
Kairos also has shallow symmetric 2nd order filter slopes sounding more open than 4th order XOs, and very high quality drivers providing low distortion, strong motors for great details, and natural sounding carbon based (pulp and silk) diaphragms so it is a very special design, so not too many other speakers can compare. I recently sold my pair of revel f208s, with very well designed crossovers, because they couldn't hold a candle to the Kairos, despite better bass extension.
Hi Scott,
Here's something to try. Sit 3' away from the speakers and listen to the large speakers again. If the problem goes away it's more likely a room acoustics issue. If the problem persists, it could be ringing in the driver or cabinet or less than optimal crossover design.
Could also be lack of adequate internal dampening materials.
Best,
Erik
Here's something to try. Sit 3' away from the speakers and listen to the large speakers again. If the problem goes away it's more likely a room acoustics issue. If the problem persists, it could be ringing in the driver or cabinet or less than optimal crossover design.
Could also be lack of adequate internal dampening materials.
Best,
Erik
Hi Richidoo,
i think what you're describing is what i'm experiencing. it's a subtle difference, but detectable. and now that i've heard the Kairos, my other speakers don't really measure up...not a bad problem to have
Hi Erik,
i'll try what you suggested, it sounds like a good experiment. i'll post my findings, might take a day or two to complete.
thanks for all the great input everyone!
cheers,
Scott
i think what you're describing is what i'm experiencing. it's a subtle difference, but detectable. and now that i've heard the Kairos, my other speakers don't really measure up...not a bad problem to have
Hi Erik,
i'll try what you suggested, it sounds like a good experiment. i'll post my findings, might take a day or two to complete.
thanks for all the great input everyone!
cheers,
Scott
I don't believe you will be able hear a phase misalignment between two speakers in the same enclosure (at least anything smaller than 1 wavelength) as anything other than a change in frequency response at the listening position.
The only audible effects of a crossover which is poorly phase aligned is that there are null(s) or ripples in the frequency response which all change as you move on and off axis. Basically the frequency response will not sound very consistent as you move around the room.
In the rare case that the drivers are almost exactly out of phase with each other (180degrees) and exactly the same amplitude at the crossover point, a null is formed in the on-axis response while there is a peak off-axis, in-direct sound (room reflections) may be more audible than the sound coming directly from the speakers. If this is the case then reversing the polarity of the tweeter should fix it. If it doesn't fix it then it isn't that.
"Smearing" is a subjective term - it doesn't describe any one thing that is scientifically measurable. What the OP is hearing could be a rough frequency response, poor power response or non-linear distortion due to poorly chosen crossover points or poor choice of drivers causing a band of frequencies that neither driver will play well.
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update;
well, just goes to show you that checking and rechecking the crossover wiring is paramount! long story short, i was adding a small shaping circuit to my big speakers (from a user mod) and couldn't quite follow my wiring. turns out i had made a mistake in one speaker that probably caused some 'mis-matching' and i bet that's what i was hearing.
added the circuit (LRC) and boy it sounds great!
cheers and thanks for all the help on the forum!
Scott
well, just goes to show you that checking and rechecking the crossover wiring is paramount! long story short, i was adding a small shaping circuit to my big speakers (from a user mod) and couldn't quite follow my wiring. turns out i had made a mistake in one speaker that probably caused some 'mis-matching' and i bet that's what i was hearing.
added the circuit (LRC) and boy it sounds great!
cheers and thanks for all the help on the forum!
Scott
Scott,
Sorry, Dayton Audio Test System. It's a $99 impedance and Thielle/Small measurement tool available from Parts Express. There are ways of rolling your own with Room EQ Wizard, but I don't know how.
DATS is cheap but good and pretty accurate. I've seen a few at a very expensive speaker maker's QA room.
For this case, what I do is I test the impedance of the speaker when I build it, and compare it to the impedance curves XSim expects. However, it let's you measure every part in a crossover, so it's a good idea to measure the parts before soldering them in if you have it. I'm lazy and trust in the part quality though.
Best,
Erik
Sorry, Dayton Audio Test System. It's a $99 impedance and Thielle/Small measurement tool available from Parts Express. There are ways of rolling your own with Room EQ Wizard, but I don't know how.
DATS is cheap but good and pretty accurate. I've seen a few at a very expensive speaker maker's QA room.
For this case, what I do is I test the impedance of the speaker when I build it, and compare it to the impedance curves XSim expects. However, it let's you measure every part in a crossover, so it's a good idea to measure the parts before soldering them in if you have it. I'm lazy and trust in the part quality though.
Best,
Erik
Here is an example. The black "File" is from DATS, while the red "Sys" is from XSim for the LM-1 Center channel speaker. The near perfect match tells me that my crossover is wired accurately:
I think I may have used a slightly different tweeter padding resistor than designed. Can't remember now. Too busy watching Master & Commander.
Best,
Erik
I think I may have used a slightly different tweeter padding resistor than designed. Can't remember now. Too busy watching Master & Commander.
Best,
Erik
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