I am looking for a midrange, than will play well in low to mid volume. I was considering SS 12MU or Satori, but while Scans are awesome, in my opinion they have to reach certain level of volume to play well, otherwise they play dull and congested.
Maybe I should than look into metal or ceramic comes, or kevlar, instead of paper?
I also look for the most voice and instruments fidelity, I am less concerned about sensitivity, transient response or uber detailed playing, as it bring fast fatigue as has nothing to do with how acoustic instruments sounds.
Besides those two, I consider also:
Wavecor 120
Aurum Cantus AC130
Vifa NE123 or 149
SB NBAC
Monacor SPH Kep
I just want clarity and full sound already at low volume, without sound being to heavy and dark.
Maybe I should than look into metal or ceramic comes, or kevlar, instead of paper?
I also look for the most voice and instruments fidelity, I am less concerned about sensitivity, transient response or uber detailed playing, as it bring fast fatigue as has nothing to do with how acoustic instruments sounds.
Besides those two, I consider also:
Wavecor 120
Aurum Cantus AC130
Vifa NE123 or 149
SB NBAC
Monacor SPH Kep
I just want clarity and full sound already at low volume, without sound being to heavy and dark.
I have used 12MU in 3 projects already, and in all of them 12MU was the highlight. In no way dull and congested at lower SPLs. On the other hand, I know Satoris (MW13P, MW16P, MW19P, WO24P, MW16TX) as well, and those can sound congested, especially in direct comparison with scan speaks, TX is an exception and better to my ears compared to paper versions.
NE123 - very good, again, no signs of dark, heavy, congested at lower SPLs.
Wavecor WF120 (CU07?) - this could be nice midrange
15W/4424 and 8424 Discovery, based on my experience with 18W these could have very nice and open midrange
Be careful, Alu and ceramic cones can actually sound darker compared to paper cones.
NE123 - very good, again, no signs of dark, heavy, congested at lower SPLs.
Wavecor WF120 (CU07?) - this could be nice midrange
15W/4424 and 8424 Discovery, based on my experience with 18W these could have very nice and open midrange
Be careful, Alu and ceramic cones can actually sound darker compared to paper cones.
Thank you a lot for your detailed response. I know your site well from many years and know that you are a fan of 12MU, but your knowledge about Satori ans metal/ceramic is really worth a lot to me.
BTW, do you think that Vifa NE123/149 can be a cheap substitute of 12MU, or there is still big variances in sound quality?
I have used the Scan-Speak 10F/4424G00 Discovery 4" Midrange in 4 ohm for a small low-volume speaker. I use a simple 1st order crossover to a tweeter (.25mH coil on the 10F, 10uF cap on the tweeter). Plays very clear and clean at low volume. Quite a nice mid driver.
Low end rolls off pretty early, maybe 120Hz for F3, maybe higher. I will eventually pair it with a 6"-7" driver set (undecided on 1 or 2 per speaker). Going to try the SB17CSC 6" woofers first, they match up well visually.
Low end rolls off pretty early, maybe 120Hz for F3, maybe higher. I will eventually pair it with a 6"-7" driver set (undecided on 1 or 2 per speaker). Going to try the SB17CSC 6" woofers first, they match up well visually.
A lot of commercial speakers left me disappointed for this exact reason. They gave the subjective perceived veil or loss at low playback levels. I enjoyed some aspects of the Bowers & Wilkins 800 line midranges, but the overall speakers didn’t quite hold me. Some people like them for piano music, but I didn’t find them special and gave them to my parents. While a crossover can do that too, it usually seems like the nature of the driver that it just sounds like a speaker and sounds lacking, or distant to familiar reproduction of sounds.
I tried quite a few DIY market midranges, and the Audax carbon fibre drivers were quite decent, though the third order HD was a bit high when I measured them. They had a small one called the HM100Z0 that had a cult following for decades. There is some interest in the Bliesma midranges (M74B and M142A) and how well they sound at normal volume levels. I may order a set to try.
One midrange that satisfied my desires and stood out above all the drivers I tested was the Yamaha JA-0801, in the NS-1000M. All the detail is there at any listening level, from a whisper up. These are single suspension dome midranges. They’re no longer manufactured, but the midranges do frequent the auction sites from speakers that were parted out. You would be taking chances on their variances from early to later production runs.
I tried quite a few DIY market midranges, and the Audax carbon fibre drivers were quite decent, though the third order HD was a bit high when I measured them. They had a small one called the HM100Z0 that had a cult following for decades. There is some interest in the Bliesma midranges (M74B and M142A) and how well they sound at normal volume levels. I may order a set to try.
One midrange that satisfied my desires and stood out above all the drivers I tested was the Yamaha JA-0801, in the NS-1000M. All the detail is there at any listening level, from a whisper up. These are single suspension dome midranges. They’re no longer manufactured, but the midranges do frequent the auction sites from speakers that were parted out. You would be taking chances on their variances from early to later production runs.
D
Deleted member 375592
Kouiky,
What do you think of going to a pro-audio store, and listening to studio monitors? Then you dig up for information on who uses what drivers in their designs... and voila!
What do you think of going to a pro-audio store, and listening to studio monitors? Then you dig up for information on who uses what drivers in their designs... and voila!
I think that’s a great way to do it.
I also regret that many of the drivers in great, large studio monitors are now unavailable to the DIY market, as I remember when ATC, Dynaudio and Focal drivers from the flagship lines were available through key distributors
There are other alternatives, but if we look around, most builders are constructing high-SPL PA systems with those pro drivers and I don’t know if those mids would excel at talking levels of 60dB average, simply because most impressions from them are at high levels.
The Bowers & Wilkins FST 800-series midranges were sporadically available, new from third parties and were great midranges, but again I found they wanted to be played at a level that was above my comfort threshold.
I also regret that many of the drivers in great, large studio monitors are now unavailable to the DIY market, as I remember when ATC, Dynaudio and Focal drivers from the flagship lines were available through key distributors
There are other alternatives, but if we look around, most builders are constructing high-SPL PA systems with those pro drivers and I don’t know if those mids would excel at talking levels of 60dB average, simply because most impressions from them are at high levels.
The Bowers & Wilkins FST 800-series midranges were sporadically available, new from third parties and were great midranges, but again I found they wanted to be played at a level that was above my comfort threshold.
Any decent brand of drive units can supply such performance. It all depends on how one takes care of it in the design.
I'm really curious about your view on the WO24 and how it is less performing than Scan speak, with regards to the term "congested". And which scan speak drivers are better IYO? 22W 8857T00?
I often find harder cones more detailed and less distorted than paper. But I also define distorted with unwanted "warmth" from the broad break-up in paper that often happens lower in frequency.
The "dark" sound you refer to.... what do you mean by that?
Hi,
coffeebreak philosophy:
I'm quite sure there is no evidence that sound of a driver would change at low listening level. It's contrary, the more volume the more sound changes due to more excursion, more non-linearities at play, and heat, so the sound is as good as it gets at low level. So, if speaker sounds dark on low level, then logically it must be brighter at high level, which means it likely has great amount of distortion when it sounds balanced, and that the system balance is off at low listening level when the distortion is not there anymore. Could be even without distortion, if the system balance is just off, hearing system adjusts with level.
So, it's more a system design and balancing issue, while swapping a mid driver might help, it would be enough just to balance the system for the low listening level without swapping drivers. It would be worth a try, because it could be some other issue altogether: It might be due to AB amplifier, whose crossover distortion is most audible at low level, which means that on an inefficient system it's less audible. Or something like that. Tweeter distorting due to too low crossover, balanced with the distortion, it would sound dull with low listening level. There is just a lot of things that can be off, while it could be a driver, well perhaps first check the system is tuned fine to be sure to avoid spending extra for no good reason.
Assuming you use any fine driver without obvious issues, and the system is fine as well, tweeter is ok and so on, all you have to do is balance out your system with low level, if that's the main level to listen at. Since it's low listening level distortion isn't likely a problem assuming drivers and crossover make a logical unit that has taken distortion account, in which case it would be a system frequency response issue mostly. So, logically it's system issue mainly.
coffeebreak philosophy:
I'm quite sure there is no evidence that sound of a driver would change at low listening level. It's contrary, the more volume the more sound changes due to more excursion, more non-linearities at play, and heat, so the sound is as good as it gets at low level. So, if speaker sounds dark on low level, then logically it must be brighter at high level, which means it likely has great amount of distortion when it sounds balanced, and that the system balance is off at low listening level when the distortion is not there anymore. Could be even without distortion, if the system balance is just off, hearing system adjusts with level.
So, it's more a system design and balancing issue, while swapping a mid driver might help, it would be enough just to balance the system for the low listening level without swapping drivers. It would be worth a try, because it could be some other issue altogether: It might be due to AB amplifier, whose crossover distortion is most audible at low level, which means that on an inefficient system it's less audible. Or something like that. Tweeter distorting due to too low crossover, balanced with the distortion, it would sound dull with low listening level. There is just a lot of things that can be off, while it could be a driver, well perhaps first check the system is tuned fine to be sure to avoid spending extra for no good reason.
Assuming you use any fine driver without obvious issues, and the system is fine as well, tweeter is ok and so on, all you have to do is balance out your system with low level, if that's the main level to listen at. Since it's low listening level distortion isn't likely a problem assuming drivers and crossover make a logical unit that has taken distortion account, in which case it would be a system frequency response issue mostly. So, logically it's system issue mainly.
Imho all conventional drivers, be it domes or cones, suffer from this effect. There are better and worse drivers but they all have it. Tweeters with ferrofluid damping are the worst.
The only drivers that I am aware of that do not at all loose resolution at low spl are electrostatics. Magnet driven planars are also very good at this specific aspect and come close. So if you want to maintain excellent sq even at very low listening levels, go planar.
It probably has something to do with the non linear effects of the suspension stiffness in conventional drivers that get relatively more pronounced at very low excursions where the drive forces become very tiny.
The only drivers that I am aware of that do not at all loose resolution at low spl are electrostatics. Magnet driven planars are also very good at this specific aspect and come close. So if you want to maintain excellent sq even at very low listening levels, go planar.
It probably has something to do with the non linear effects of the suspension stiffness in conventional drivers that get relatively more pronounced at very low excursions where the drive forces become very tiny.
Yeah, well, it's how you think about it, the forces of suspension or anything in the motor are most linear with low excursion, and get less linear with more excursion (and current). distortion doesn't increase when you reduce listening level, it reduces.
So, if a system sounds balanced with high listening level it's due to hearing system frequency balanc, and if there is driver distortion the distortion constituting to the perception would be included as well and designer likely tuned the system so that it sounds fine at that listening level as a whole, which then goes away when level is lowered, distortion lowers, hearing system balance changes, and apparent balance changes. Basically the system was tuned for higher listening level, and one could just tune it again, for the lower listening level. If it's due to driver distortion, then the system would be too bright at high listening level though.
This again is a system issue. If it's a distortion issue, perhaps lower distortion driver works better, but distortion could be from tweeter as well, reducing excursion of what ever driver is the culprit. Talking about mid driver seems to me it's a 3+ way system, which means the mid is not usually particularly stressed, so I'd look problems with the tweeter and revisiting the system design could help with it. Which takes me back to the issue it's just not well balanced system.
Anyway, what ever it is it's interesting that many people seem to notice it, it's very likely some real phenomenon. What I'm trying to point out here, it's not necessarily fixed by changing a mid driver, usually there is not just one reason but multiple. Perhaps it is just a mid driver, I just see many possible reasons for such perception and wanted to add some perspective. As disclaimer, I do not have any experience on those drivers, so perhaps my words are just thin air 🙂
So, if a system sounds balanced with high listening level it's due to hearing system frequency balanc, and if there is driver distortion the distortion constituting to the perception would be included as well and designer likely tuned the system so that it sounds fine at that listening level as a whole, which then goes away when level is lowered, distortion lowers, hearing system balance changes, and apparent balance changes. Basically the system was tuned for higher listening level, and one could just tune it again, for the lower listening level. If it's due to driver distortion, then the system would be too bright at high listening level though.
This again is a system issue. If it's a distortion issue, perhaps lower distortion driver works better, but distortion could be from tweeter as well, reducing excursion of what ever driver is the culprit. Talking about mid driver seems to me it's a 3+ way system, which means the mid is not usually particularly stressed, so I'd look problems with the tweeter and revisiting the system design could help with it. Which takes me back to the issue it's just not well balanced system.
Anyway, what ever it is it's interesting that many people seem to notice it, it's very likely some real phenomenon. What I'm trying to point out here, it's not necessarily fixed by changing a mid driver, usually there is not just one reason but multiple. Perhaps it is just a mid driver, I just see many possible reasons for such perception and wanted to add some perspective. As disclaimer, I do not have any experience on those drivers, so perhaps my words are just thin air 🙂
Last edited:
I will try to explain, and as we talk about the sound, I will use a lot of subjective expressions. I will describe the sound for the cases those drivers were used in 2way or 3way for woofer duty. MW16P, MW13P, MW16TX, MW19P - I used those as midranges as well, and this is another story.
Besides listed Satori drivers, I have worked also with SB23CAC, SB17NBAC, SB17MFC, SB17CAC.
One thing that all of them had in common was certain impression of slower, deep, one note bass. WO24P sounded very deep. I had it in BR alignment and closed as well, closed sounded better, but the feeling of of congested sound was still there. It just does not want to play, and to mitigate this you need to feed it with the power of D-class amplifiers (I use Hypex1200 based power amp). Like V8 with hand brake on. At higher levels it starts to come alive. There was something missing. They do not sound responsive, it sounds dampened, not in the level, but in the meaning of reaction on the signal. There is likely something not right in the soft parts, it makes parameters and distortion measurements looking good but that is all.
I think the key is in lower midrange. And the distortion measurements does not reveal whole story.
Anytime I worked with other drivers (ScanSpeak Discovery+Classic+Revelator+Illuminator, Vifa NE225+265, Wavecor WF223 WF182BD09, Sica 8" and 6" and coaxials) I did not have any objections to the overall sound. There were percieved differences, but nothing I would call problem and had to redesign the loudspeaker as use another drivers.
Therefore I really appreciate the experiences @lamjf shared about SB29NRX+SB34NRX vs SB34NRXL and NRXL is the only SB I will give a chance in the future.
My egeneral recommendation for SB and Satori woofers is not to use larger volumes based on the sims to get as deep bass as possible. Yes, it looks they can go low, and yes they sound that way as well, but it is just all, there is no other quality, lower midrange suffers, bass seems to be disconnected.
SB+Satori tweeters on the other hand are fine.
To list better drivers: 22W/4851, NE225W, 21W/8555-10 or 10" versions from the same drivers families.
Besides listed Satori drivers, I have worked also with SB23CAC, SB17NBAC, SB17MFC, SB17CAC.
One thing that all of them had in common was certain impression of slower, deep, one note bass. WO24P sounded very deep. I had it in BR alignment and closed as well, closed sounded better, but the feeling of of congested sound was still there. It just does not want to play, and to mitigate this you need to feed it with the power of D-class amplifiers (I use Hypex1200 based power amp). Like V8 with hand brake on. At higher levels it starts to come alive. There was something missing. They do not sound responsive, it sounds dampened, not in the level, but in the meaning of reaction on the signal. There is likely something not right in the soft parts, it makes parameters and distortion measurements looking good but that is all.
I think the key is in lower midrange. And the distortion measurements does not reveal whole story.
Anytime I worked with other drivers (ScanSpeak Discovery+Classic+Revelator+Illuminator, Vifa NE225+265, Wavecor WF223 WF182BD09, Sica 8" and 6" and coaxials) I did not have any objections to the overall sound. There were percieved differences, but nothing I would call problem and had to redesign the loudspeaker as use another drivers.
Therefore I really appreciate the experiences @lamjf shared about SB29NRX+SB34NRX vs SB34NRXL and NRXL is the only SB I will give a chance in the future.
My egeneral recommendation for SB and Satori woofers is not to use larger volumes based on the sims to get as deep bass as possible. Yes, it looks they can go low, and yes they sound that way as well, but it is just all, there is no other quality, lower midrange suffers, bass seems to be disconnected.
SB+Satori tweeters on the other hand are fine.
To list better drivers: 22W/4851, NE225W, 21W/8555-10 or 10" versions from the same drivers families.
Last edited:
Lots of good info in this topic. I remember Bob Brian’s posting a year before he closed shop. I will see if I can find the post? If not he e mailed me and said the midrange he used what he was looking for. It was some technical terms I can’t remember and I don’t want miss quote Him.
I have no direct experience, but first of all there are like 3 versions: AC130 F1, AC130MK II and AC130/50CK. According to my knowledge (a lot of threads read on this and other forums): the 50CK is updated and better version of the three, and they sound far better than their price would suggest, some place in one row with Satori, SS Rev, Wavecor, Vifa NE and similar. However, there are also several reports of AC not manufacturning consistent speakers (which you can read in threads related to different AC speakers, their ribbons too). I do not know whether they get better on this.
Thanks for the reply. Yes I have heard of those things about them. Yes, 3 different ones and they also have a 120ck.
Ok - makes a little bit more sense now - thank you.
I'm still in doubt what it fully means, and you are the first one I know that have this distinct view/experience with these drivers.... except - I tried the MW16P and MW13P in a construction... and it definitely sounded "dull" and boring, even though we ran it active with lots of power. Somehow it sounded a little boring and lifeless, compared to anything I've ever heard. Maybe this is what you mean?
I tried the little SB NRX 4" midrange, the MW13TX and MW16TX - and they all 3 do not have this problem. I actually remember Scan-speak Illuminator 15WU having some of the same issue - mainly because it might try - or is intended to - play bass too, with its big surround and long excursion - which makes the midrange less open - somehow.
One of my friends have 4 of the Satori WO24P-8, which I'm going to try and play with tomorrow. Then I'll be much wiser whether this is all in my head or something else 😀
Dull, boring and lifeless, yes these adjectives fit. Some of the named drivers can make nice midrange. My objections are valid for drivers used as woofer.
I did few projects with satori midrange and scan speak woofer, and I always ended up replacing satori with another driver. The last one was Shamal project, 22w/4851 and mw16tx, it was almost good but still not what I expect and know from scan speak woofers.
Full sb or satori system might sound quite good though.
I did few projects with satori midrange and scan speak woofer, and I always ended up replacing satori with another driver. The last one was Shamal project, 22w/4851 and mw16tx, it was almost good but still not what I expect and know from scan speak woofers.
Full sb or satori system might sound quite good though.
So where do you usually cross?
I want to have some surface area for a bit of "tactile" feeling in the bass up to around 4-500Hz before a smaller midrange takes over. This is also the reason why I like a "clean" woofer.
If I crossed around 200Hz, then most woofers would be fine, since we both do not hear much distortion down there and the room dominates almost entirely.
The 4551 should be good to 800Hz, so why the MW16TX? It seems like a "midrange" that would need a bigger woofer. Sensitivity?