Hi I'm sketching a 3 way classic with a 3" ScanSpeak 10F which is around 10 cm diameter with the front plate.
I planned a cut-off between 3k and 3.5k hz with a recess for the tweater to try secnd order or 1st order if sounding good enough for te last.
I'm not sure anymore about the Center to center between the mid nd the treble.
Please, should it be below the wave length of the XO or the half wave length of the cut-off number ?
Saw Troels Gravsen is a little above the wave length with his 3 Way classic with more than 10 cm mostly due to the diameter of the classic tweeter tht have quite large front plate due to their low Fs those days....
Thank you for your tips
I planned a cut-off between 3k and 3.5k hz with a recess for the tweater to try secnd order or 1st order if sounding good enough for te last.
I'm not sure anymore about the Center to center between the mid nd the treble.
Please, should it be below the wave length of the XO or the half wave length of the cut-off number ?
Saw Troels Gravsen is a little above the wave length with his 3 Way classic with more than 10 cm mostly due to the diameter of the classic tweeter tht have quite large front plate due to their low Fs those days....
Thank you for your tips
Ideally it would be in the center of the midrange. Other than that - smaller ctc distance is always better.
Thanks for being there.
Ok, I translate in :"don't bother too much with that"...
If 13 or 14 cm center to center is ok between a 3" and a 1" around a 3300 hz then it gives me more choice ! ...around 1.5 x the wave length, no problem...let's go !
Hey I was hesitating between the Morel 408-8 (btw why not w/o FF) which is a 7,7 cm face-plate and the Peereless DA25TX which is... much more larger (flying saucer face plate).
Well hope one day the center in to center mid-treble will be a compression driver in the acurate horn from circa 700 to what I can till hear ! Here it's a casual just do it.🙂
Ok, I translate in :"don't bother too much with that"...
If 13 or 14 cm center to center is ok between a 3" and a 1" around a 3300 hz then it gives me more choice ! ...around 1.5 x the wave length, no problem...let's go !
Hey I was hesitating between the Morel 408-8 (btw why not w/o FF) which is a 7,7 cm face-plate and the Peereless DA25TX which is... much more larger (flying saucer face plate).
Well hope one day the center in to center mid-treble will be a compression driver in the acurate horn from circa 700 to what I can till hear ! Here it's a casual just do it.🙂
Hi, it is very hard to get tweeter and mid close enough for 1/4wl, especially if there is any kind of wave guide involved (try and match polar responses at crossover). If it needs to have a wave guide and 1/4wl spacing almost only option is some kind of multiple entry horn (or coaxial), pick your poison 🙂 Anyway, get them as close as possible.
Hi tmuikku,
Thanks. 1/4 W-L seems not possible due to the size of mid cones.
The 1/2 W-L is very hard upon 2 k hz for the same reason :around 5 cm iirc for a 3 k hz cut-off.
Something between 1/2 and 1 is doable with some lo size tweeter front plate as for instance the Morel 408 (72 mm front plate).
Wave-guide... well I never understood really how they are used for the treble in a passive XO. I understand they show a good off axis behavior while I'm not sure how a designer is managing the 10 db recess seen between the top plateau around 1k to 3k hz and the high end 20 k hz ??? Same filter as a bafle step compensation I assume (L//C) ? That horned tweeter are attractive but it's above my basic understanding...
So at 3k to 3.3K the Peereless corundum DA25TX tweeter looks like a trap here with its 12 cm diameter face plate !
The SB Acoustics ceramic tweeter that eventually could marry with the sound signature of the ScanSpeak 10F 8ohms is a 4 ohms despite the front plate is 10 cm (as most of the tweeters) it can be removed as the dome-voice coil is not front-plate slaved as many ScanSpeak, Seas or low cost Peereless !
For the non expensive budget I planned the Morel seems ok, if a wave-guide the Seas DX25 bulet version is quite famous and low cost... but not sure it is as good sounding than a Morel !
I assume I ust measure the mid baffled to know exactly its spl at cut-off for the best choice for treble crossing in order to try to avoid a serie resistor (well not focussed n that but just if I can).
I will try to shelve down the ScanSpeak around 87/88 db around 3k according the bafle behavior...
Thanks. 1/4 W-L seems not possible due to the size of mid cones.
The 1/2 W-L is very hard upon 2 k hz for the same reason :around 5 cm iirc for a 3 k hz cut-off.
Something between 1/2 and 1 is doable with some lo size tweeter front plate as for instance the Morel 408 (72 mm front plate).
Wave-guide... well I never understood really how they are used for the treble in a passive XO. I understand they show a good off axis behavior while I'm not sure how a designer is managing the 10 db recess seen between the top plateau around 1k to 3k hz and the high end 20 k hz ??? Same filter as a bafle step compensation I assume (L//C) ? That horned tweeter are attractive but it's above my basic understanding...
So at 3k to 3.3K the Peereless corundum DA25TX tweeter looks like a trap here with its 12 cm diameter face plate !
The SB Acoustics ceramic tweeter that eventually could marry with the sound signature of the ScanSpeak 10F 8ohms is a 4 ohms despite the front plate is 10 cm (as most of the tweeters) it can be removed as the dome-voice coil is not front-plate slaved as many ScanSpeak, Seas or low cost Peereless !
For the non expensive budget I planned the Morel seems ok, if a wave-guide the Seas DX25 bulet version is quite famous and low cost... but not sure it is as good sounding than a Morel !
I assume I ust measure the mid baffled to know exactly its spl at cut-off for the best choice for treble crossing in order to try to avoid a serie resistor (well not focussed n that but just if I can).
I will try to shelve down the ScanSpeak around 87/88 db around 3k according the bafle behavior...
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Language problem for you again. No, it means, the closer the better, not don't bother. You should bother. You do that by placing the 2 drivers as close as absolutely possible.
Is that clearer?
//
PS. You should probably use google translate in both directions for all your interaction here - so many misunderstandings...
TNT,
Sorry I thing I understood what I read if not coincident (which I didn't ask) then the nearer the better ! Of course I know as I asked, you can imagine I'm aware and I already wanted to do the best and the nearer as possible hence the topic! But how far, as Zvu doesn't really say, my understanding is should I care in relation to the 1/2 or the 1 WL : again his answer is do the best you can, I perfectly understood that : but how much I should (related to the question)
at that level I think our interactions are often unpleasant and that you chase me. I'm not liking your psycho rigid way of life & thinking, your public denunciation nazi way. I really dunno why you get there at certainly the end of your life but I find it sad. Of course you don't interact to help me but just to slash me... freely !
But as far I'm concerned if you can feel me on your ignore list it could be find as I don't get your subtilities. TNT, you defintly is a wet banger as far I'm concerned.
As for language, all the sweedish can speak english perfectly cause it's a little country that had to learn it for survive, and so on as the even more english aknowledged from Norway that have crazy good english ! You learned it as a child, so why checking my bollocks: you like it, I don't darling. I write more or less 3 to 4 language at the level I write here : average as you like to highlight often about me ! If ou don't like it, don't read me : putt me on your ignore list. I believe you needs holydays soon ! At least I need holydays from you 🙂 Hope it's clear enough for you ! You're not here to distribute the good and bad marks TNT !
Ask the mods as you like to denounce, but say them you chase me from threads to threads !
Sorry I thing I understood what I read if not coincident (which I didn't ask) then the nearer the better ! Of course I know as I asked, you can imagine I'm aware and I already wanted to do the best and the nearer as possible hence the topic! But how far, as Zvu doesn't really say, my understanding is should I care in relation to the 1/2 or the 1 WL : again his answer is do the best you can, I perfectly understood that : but how much I should (related to the question)
at that level I think our interactions are often unpleasant and that you chase me. I'm not liking your psycho rigid way of life & thinking, your public denunciation nazi way. I really dunno why you get there at certainly the end of your life but I find it sad. Of course you don't interact to help me but just to slash me... freely !
But as far I'm concerned if you can feel me on your ignore list it could be find as I don't get your subtilities. TNT, you defintly is a wet banger as far I'm concerned.
As for language, all the sweedish can speak english perfectly cause it's a little country that had to learn it for survive, and so on as the even more english aknowledged from Norway that have crazy good english ! You learned it as a child, so why checking my bollocks: you like it, I don't darling. I write more or less 3 to 4 language at the level I write here : average as you like to highlight often about me ! If ou don't like it, don't read me : putt me on your ignore list. I believe you needs holydays soon ! At least I need holydays from you 🙂 Hope it's clear enough for you ! You're not here to distribute the good and bad marks TNT !
Ask the mods as you like to denounce, but say them you chase me from threads to threads !
There's pretty much only one combination (that gives a decent top-end) that realistically can give you close to a 1/4 wavelength c-c at crossover (and I've looked at a lot of options) with a reasonably low distortion, and that is a Scan-Speak D2004/602000 down to a SB65WAC25-4 at about 1500 Hz (of course, with 4th order filter ideally). According to HifiCompass, the tweeter can run down to that frequency at no less than 94 dB @ 1 m, and still keep H4/H5 at -75 dB or lower in tweeter passband. The NE25VTS may also do the trick, but with the slightly larger frame you'd have to cross even lower and that makes me a bit uncomfortable.
Of course, things change when you use tweeters as mid drivers, either singly or paralleled, but you are really pushing the diminishing returns at that point. Also, if this is a design goal, it had better be for a nearfield application... my gut instinct is that a very close c-c isn't really an audible benefit if the speakers are many meters away from the listening position.
Of course, things change when you use tweeters as mid drivers, either singly or paralleled, but you are really pushing the diminishing returns at that point. Also, if this is a design goal, it had better be for a nearfield application... my gut instinct is that a very close c-c isn't really an audible benefit if the speakers are many meters away from the listening position.
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diyiggy,
If you are interested in reading further, I would encourage you to check out kstrain's thread where there is a lot of discussion on this:
After a decade of planning, thanks to forum members
If you are interested in reading further, I would encourage you to check out kstrain's thread where there is a lot of discussion on this:
After a decade of planning, thanks to forum members
Thank you very much 454Casull. The bass driver is not chosed already because some hesitations due to the room (something 10 to 15 square metter), so between a 8" and a 6" ...well I'm more towards a 8".
So with the room size I believe it will be a 2 meters listening distance at max.
@ Bill brown, of course I am... thanks for that... I have not read that thread yet but few posts. That was the on lines calculator that males me hesitate on the cursor of the WL C2C distance !
So with the room size I believe it will be a 2 meters listening distance at max.
@ Bill brown, of course I am... thanks for that... I have not read that thread yet but few posts. That was the on lines calculator that males me hesitate on the cursor of the WL C2C distance !
A 1/2 wavelength would likely be good enough for your scenario. Don't forget that many people were happy listening to cassette Walkmans not too long ago... point is, we can adapt to, and be satisfied with, almost anything as long as it can be internally rationalized.
I believe that's true... but as I have already several loudspeakers and I almost never pull the trigger about a new one every year nore decade and even so it's a casual and limited budget project, I try to do the best (with all the errors due to a personal beginer project but no fun to copy 100%), what is missing the most is experience and deep knowwledge... just have the first technical varnish and experience of listening many hifis...that's all. Fact is my listening experience is more demanding than what my knowledge can produce 😀!
As for the Walkman (what great days...) I'm happy enough with a little Fostex 7 P headphones, really not expensive but musical enough (quite good equilibriu between tones, listening confort and budget !
A little 3 way classic with some of the shapes of the ARA Be – Sbacoustics is something very motivating.
As for the Walkman (what great days...) I'm happy enough with a little Fostex 7 P headphones, really not expensive but musical enough (quite good equilibriu between tones, listening confort and budget !
A little 3 way classic with some of the shapes of the ARA Be – Sbacoustics is something very motivating.
Here's another option... instead of the SB65WBAC25-4, use a series-wired pair of TC5FC00-04. The tweeter could then be the OT19NC00 4th-order-crossed at ~2.0 kHz. This would give you a true 1/4 wl spacing, as long as the drivers are very close. Follow that up with a ~6" woofer crossed at around 600 Hz or so and that gets you a great 3-way monitor for use with subs.
There is an SPL limitation with this configuration, but based on $$$ I think extremely high value.
Timothy Feleppa's Pages: Speaker Measurements - Midrange/Fullrange Speakers 4" and smaller
Peerless OT19NC00-04 | HiFiCompass
There is an SPL limitation with this configuration, but based on $$$ I think extremely high value.
Timothy Feleppa's Pages: Speaker Measurements - Midrange/Fullrange Speakers 4" and smaller
Peerless OT19NC00-04 | HiFiCompass
Thanks for the input 454Casull.
Nice little tweeter...
In fact the only not movable item of the project as I alreay have it is the ScanSpeak 10F 8 ohms I planed around 720/800 hz in order to avoid some 5th HD as having not too much baffle step to work on with a passive filter and the lower unit which will handle all the botom to that 720/800 hz ! (more and more towards the HM2010Z0 from Audax but if I finally choose a 6" because the little room and the more cute cabinet (less twice Vas with a 6" than a 8")
And to have at least 2 octaves: till to 3000/3500 hz to this mid that can handle more width... asking myself at the end if I will add to it a tweeter, because the room ! 2 meters listening distance planed and a cube is not too much an ideal listening room (no I'm not in jail yet !)
Only the 21 cm or 17 cm ( it's for a 10 to 15 m2 room) and the tweeter is going to be chose ! I would like to stay 8 to 6 ohms drivers, cause the Scan is 8 ohms !
For the tweeter but the cac, this one is appeling cause I know it's smooth sounding, easy with low order slope and even strong enough maybe to be de ferro fluided for tunning a more open sound while having the smoothness of Dynaudio like type. The cac was chosen because I assume the ceramic coating could procure a slighty more damped sound while having also a stunning clarity that could marry fine with the ligthy clear sound of the 2.5" ScanSpeak.
I also hesitated with the little form factor alu/Mag Zaph liked but at 94 db it must be tamed with resistor... I target not using if I can resistor in front of the tweeter... targett around 87.5 db 2.83V/1m... cac is perfect but the acoustic lens is on the removable front plate ! And it's 4 ohms... well according the Walkman philosophy the 4 ohm are maybe not too much of importance 🙂 !
But always liked the Dynaudio tweeter style of sound and Morel are said to be close... Price of both are ok too ! Big advantage to the Morel with its 72 mm... I could certainly lower a little the 3k hz cut-off to be close to the 1/2 WL !
look that dreaming off axis behavior ?! http://www.compacbel.be/informations_htm_files/CAT408.pdf
Nice little tweeter...
In fact the only not movable item of the project as I alreay have it is the ScanSpeak 10F 8 ohms I planed around 720/800 hz in order to avoid some 5th HD as having not too much baffle step to work on with a passive filter and the lower unit which will handle all the botom to that 720/800 hz ! (more and more towards the HM2010Z0 from Audax but if I finally choose a 6" because the little room and the more cute cabinet (less twice Vas with a 6" than a 8")
And to have at least 2 octaves: till to 3000/3500 hz to this mid that can handle more width... asking myself at the end if I will add to it a tweeter, because the room ! 2 meters listening distance planed and a cube is not too much an ideal listening room (no I'm not in jail yet !)
Only the 21 cm or 17 cm ( it's for a 10 to 15 m2 room) and the tweeter is going to be chose ! I would like to stay 8 to 6 ohms drivers, cause the Scan is 8 ohms !
For the tweeter but the cac, this one is appeling cause I know it's smooth sounding, easy with low order slope and even strong enough maybe to be de ferro fluided for tunning a more open sound while having the smoothness of Dynaudio like type. The cac was chosen because I assume the ceramic coating could procure a slighty more damped sound while having also a stunning clarity that could marry fine with the ligthy clear sound of the 2.5" ScanSpeak.
I also hesitated with the little form factor alu/Mag Zaph liked but at 94 db it must be tamed with resistor... I target not using if I can resistor in front of the tweeter... targett around 87.5 db 2.83V/1m... cac is perfect but the acoustic lens is on the removable front plate ! And it's 4 ohms... well according the Walkman philosophy the 4 ohm are maybe not too much of importance 🙂 !
But always liked the Dynaudio tweeter style of sound and Morel are said to be close... Price of both are ok too ! Big advantage to the Morel with its 72 mm... I could certainly lower a little the 3k hz cut-off to be close to the 1/2 WL !
look that dreaming off axis behavior ?! http://www.compacbel.be/informations_htm_files/CAT408.pdf
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As an option, you know, either sell it or keep it for a future project. the TC5FC drivers are extremely cheap and will only set you back a few bills and one front baffle 🙂
The only difference in sound between varying types of rigid diaphragm material comes from some combination of the following: 1) interaction with the surround (e.g. cone-edge resonance - you see it a lot with the Satori paper drivers), and 2) magnification of harmonic distortion due to breakup. There won't be any audible (or even real?) difference when an aluminum cone and a ceramic cone are both working well within their pistonic range and at a relatively low harmonic distortion output w.r.t. the higher orders. There is IMD as well, though that has less of an synergistic effect with cone breakup than HD, and you avoid it the same way as with HD for rigid diaphragms.
Are you worried about power loss, or you just don't want to use an additional resistor?
It doesn't look like anything special to me. Actually, the top-end dispersion isn't very good at all.
Not worry about the power loss but thinking there are some tweeter that match the spl targett without the resistor à la Humblehomemadehifi filter type
But yes not an important reqirment !
Ah what do you not like in the Morel 408 top end octave ? I find the 15 and 30° off axis clean...
But yes not an important reqirment !
Ah what do you not like in the Morel 408 top end octave ? I find the 15 and 30° off axis clean...
the OT19NC00 is attractive... a match for the cut-off around 3000/3500 and a very linear 30° off axis in the top octave... is it doable with a second order slope here ? I like the price too 😉
How it sounds vs a classic no ring no bullet smooth cone 1" tweeter please ?
How it sounds vs a classic no ring no bullet smooth cone 1" tweeter please ?
I forgot to mention that off-axis response can be affected by the shape of the diaphragm. Suffice to say that the above is still valid when we are comparing diaphragms that have similar profiles.