Well that's where I respectfully disagree, or at least this is where I dont see what you're implying (never was able to read a riddle)
A resonance in the pass band cant be fixed, only attenuated. The effects are still there. Doesnt make a bad driver alone, if course.
But moving on, if a smooth controlled roll off isn't an indicator of controlled break up, then what is?
Since ther arent any polars or CSD available AFAIK, then there isn't any other data to compare, or to highlight issues.
With the Audax HM100ZO it's all there in the CSD, warts and all.
But to be honest the largest put off factor in choosing the Audax is the Price on Request status of the drivers (that and the HM100PZ0 chimera that IS stocked, and priced, and promoted on TLHP as being comparable just not a HDA cone. No measures to speak of, nor any guarantee that the original 90s spec is remotely close to what is produced now, to special order.
A resonance in the pass band cant be fixed, only attenuated. The effects are still there. Doesnt make a bad driver alone, if course.
But moving on, if a smooth controlled roll off isn't an indicator of controlled break up, then what is?
Since ther arent any polars or CSD available AFAIK, then there isn't any other data to compare, or to highlight issues.
With the Audax HM100ZO it's all there in the CSD, warts and all.
But to be honest the largest put off factor in choosing the Audax is the Price on Request status of the drivers (that and the HM100PZ0 chimera that IS stocked, and priced, and promoted on TLHP as being comparable just not a HDA cone. No measures to speak of, nor any guarantee that the original 90s spec is remotely close to what is produced now, to special order.
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Ok, I can see where you're at. I respectfully disagree.
Ordered polars.. and what about the lobing?
Well a resonance in the pass band can be filtered out, but is still there, just lower amplitude. So not fixed, but ameliorated.
Now perhaps one can fix a resonance physically but I have no idea how, other than trial and error
Well exactly, off axis polars.
The information that doesnt seem to be available, is the information we (or I) would need.
So where does that get me as far as the topic of the thread? Well exactly no further along.
Of course I may find some DIY amateur measurements, which would illuminate the situation.
In the absence of that, using the information I have at hand, then I believe the MSH 115 is the driver for the job.
I have to admit I'm not a fan of the usual stamped frames of the Monacor drivers, but I cant do a lot about that.
Now perhaps one can fix a resonance physically but I have no idea how, other than trial and error
Well exactly, off axis polars.
The information that doesnt seem to be available, is the information we (or I) would need.
So where does that get me as far as the topic of the thread? Well exactly no further along.
Of course I may find some DIY amateur measurements, which would illuminate the situation.
In the absence of that, using the information I have at hand, then I believe the MSH 115 is the driver for the job.
I have to admit I'm not a fan of the usual stamped frames of the Monacor drivers, but I cant do a lot about that.
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It rarely is. The idea is to ditch the breakup region. Once you are comfortable that it has been effectively dispensed with, will it have an effect on the remaining passband?
Neither am I, looks kind of cheap. I have purchased a pair of msh 115 seventeen years ago and it cost me 37 €/piece, vat included.
Hi guys. Been away for a while, but still have my dream speaker on the back-burner, as do we all... 😱
We've been into the Steen Duelund three way crossover enough times. Troels did his Classic SEAS 3 way here: SEAS-3-Way-Classic
Can't go far wrong with a crossover like that. I have banged on about the Wharfedale E70 MTM series wired midrange idea enough times. Vocals that project.
That would work very nicely with a ribbon tweeter too.
Anyhoo, here's a decent enough suggestion for a versatile 89dB midrange or midbass. The Peerless 830860. Troels discusses it here: Peerless HDS PPB 830860
This sort of 5" polycone driver has an illustrious history with KEF and Harbeth. Ought to be OK in 5L of closed box as a mid. 26mm voicecoil should keep the breakup nasties well above 3.5kHz.
I think one or two mids will work well enough, Falcon have them in stock around £40.
Peerless 830860 HDS 134 PPB MidWoofer Speaker
Bit of a bargain 25L closed box SEAS £40 polycone woofer here too: Seas P21RE/P H0942-08 Woofer. H0313 2015 remake
All a bit BBC, ClassicFM and retro, and what is wrong with that? 😀
We've been into the Steen Duelund three way crossover enough times. Troels did his Classic SEAS 3 way here: SEAS-3-Way-Classic
Can't go far wrong with a crossover like that. I have banged on about the Wharfedale E70 MTM series wired midrange idea enough times. Vocals that project.
That would work very nicely with a ribbon tweeter too.
Anyhoo, here's a decent enough suggestion for a versatile 89dB midrange or midbass. The Peerless 830860. Troels discusses it here: Peerless HDS PPB 830860
This sort of 5" polycone driver has an illustrious history with KEF and Harbeth. Ought to be OK in 5L of closed box as a mid. 26mm voicecoil should keep the breakup nasties well above 3.5kHz.
I think one or two mids will work well enough, Falcon have them in stock around £40.
Peerless 830860 HDS 134 PPB MidWoofer Speaker
Bit of a bargain 25L closed box SEAS £40 polycone woofer here too: Seas P21RE/P H0942-08 Woofer. H0313 2015 remake
All a bit BBC, ClassicFM and retro, and what is wrong with that? 😀
Yeah what happened?
Thanks by the way for your suggestions.
I'm having somewhat of a rethink WRT the goals or scope of a 3 way, that I could live with.
I have my main speaker system, but two kids on and it needs drivers without dents....
I should probably stew on it a bit longer (I'm good at starting projects and not so good at completing them) and 'service' the main speakers...
Thanks by the way for your suggestions.
I'm having somewhat of a rethink WRT the goals or scope of a 3 way, that I could live with.
I have my main speaker system, but two kids on and it needs drivers without dents....
I should probably stew on it a bit longer (I'm good at starting projects and not so good at completing them) and 'service' the main speakers...
Any thought to the PRV 5MR450-NDY? Definitely sensitive enough, bandwidth is wide enough. I plan to pair my set with Visaton MHT12 and a pair of Audax HM170Z18 woofers.
Should likely suit your needs if not too expensive.
The Peerless 830991 is almost sensitive enough (87dB), and remarkably low HD unit.
Later,
Wolf
Should likely suit your needs if not too expensive.
The Peerless 830991 is almost sensitive enough (87dB), and remarkably low HD unit.
Later,
Wolf
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Haha. Had one very good experience (7.3m) and a frustrating one (12PW) which seemed ok at first but cd never get it to integrate properly in a 2 way, even with some.expert help.
What about 3-4" flat tangband range? Seen some good prices on those in europe. And they have grills
Hi Wolf,
I havent thought of a PRV driver, so thanks for the suggestion.
I have had some great suggestions which I'm pondering on
Monacor MSH115 looks good
Faital 4FE32, 35, 3FE22, 25
But you make a good point, if I can bear to lose one dB and settle for 88dB rating, then the respected Peerless becomes a very good option too.
Grills would be useful...I havent seen them in a while, but I should revisit them. Thanks for the reminder!
I think that 4" 8 ohm Monacor MSH-115 is very nice: Monacor MSH-115. IMF 4/200 Midrange replacement
It's a poor man's SEAS MCA 12RC: Seas MCA12RC H1304-08 Midrange - Prestige Series
I'm not to sure quite how pure mid that Monacor is. Because a pure cone mid is a different animal from a small midbass. Lighter, faster, shorter voicecoil etc. It must count for something.
There's another way of doing things. A lot of people have used an extremely large soft dome as a mid: Like Troels with his SP38/13:
SP38/13
The D3806/8200 is a pricey item around £130. More affordable is the Vifa D75MX-41-08 at about £75. This 3" tweeter is unusual in needing a 2L enclosure, being open-back.
Georg Krilov, who I like, had a go at it. Tree Way Loudspeaker
He also had a go with that scruffy looking Scan W18 woofer which I also like below 2kHz: http://geokrilov.com/3wayvifamorel.html
My Russian is a bit vague, but possibly better than yours. He seems to think almost any old SEAS 90dB 8" woofer (like a CA22RNX or some Falcon polycone sale bargain) could be made to work with this setup.
Of course, you could do a £99 sealed back Visaton 2" soft dome too. Easy to implement. https://impactaudio.co.uk/collections/visaton-hifi-drive-units/products/visaton-g50-ffl-8-ohm-50mm-2ins-high-end-fabric-dome-driver
All the advantages of Boxsim modelling available there. But I'd always prefer at least third order high pass to a dome unit. Which is where Troels went on his variant.
Endlessly interesting hobby. Build what you fancy! 😀
p.s. Apologies for the lack of images. I am working out of Ubuntu Linux whilst listening to my usual glorious classical music ATM. Mainly Debussy lately. 😱
It's a poor man's SEAS MCA 12RC: Seas MCA12RC H1304-08 Midrange - Prestige Series
I'm not to sure quite how pure mid that Monacor is. Because a pure cone mid is a different animal from a small midbass. Lighter, faster, shorter voicecoil etc. It must count for something.
There's another way of doing things. A lot of people have used an extremely large soft dome as a mid: Like Troels with his SP38/13:
SP38/13
The D3806/8200 is a pricey item around £130. More affordable is the Vifa D75MX-41-08 at about £75. This 3" tweeter is unusual in needing a 2L enclosure, being open-back.
Georg Krilov, who I like, had a go at it. Tree Way Loudspeaker
He also had a go with that scruffy looking Scan W18 woofer which I also like below 2kHz: http://geokrilov.com/3wayvifamorel.html
My Russian is a bit vague, but possibly better than yours. He seems to think almost any old SEAS 90dB 8" woofer (like a CA22RNX or some Falcon polycone sale bargain) could be made to work with this setup.
Of course, you could do a £99 sealed back Visaton 2" soft dome too. Easy to implement. https://impactaudio.co.uk/collections/visaton-hifi-drive-units/products/visaton-g50-ffl-8-ohm-50mm-2ins-high-end-fabric-dome-driver
All the advantages of Boxsim modelling available there. But I'd always prefer at least third order high pass to a dome unit. Which is where Troels went on his variant.
Endlessly interesting hobby. Build what you fancy! 😀
p.s. Apologies for the lack of images. I am working out of Ubuntu Linux whilst listening to my usual glorious classical music ATM. Mainly Debussy lately. 😱
Hi Steve,
Yes the Seas is comparable, I guess. Except that its perhaps 3dB less sensitive than the monacor.
As far as the Monacor goes, it looks like a midwoofer Fs of 85Hz. Xmax is only 1.5mm so not really much of a midwoofer, more of a midrange. Le of 0.3mH and Mms of 4.5g.
Yes the Seas is comparable, I guess. Except that its perhaps 3dB less sensitive than the monacor.
As far as the Monacor goes, it looks like a midwoofer Fs of 85Hz. Xmax is only 1.5mm so not really much of a midwoofer, more of a midrange. Le of 0.3mH and Mms of 4.5g.
Thanks for all the helpful suggestions
Thanks to all who helpfully gave me their suggestions for a mid sensitivity midrange driver.
I 'settled' for Monacor MSH 115, and wellx settled was the wrong word. (These drivers are pretty special, clean, and only with a little hint of a break up peak before roll off.
Using a cheap pair of micro system speakers, I had already gutted of the original driver (attached photos).
These cabs had the cheaper Monacor SP40 universal woofer retrofitted for the last month or so (also a pretty smooth sounding, and near full range driver itself)
Great thing about these cabs (perhaps the only thing) is the cutout and screw holes are already there and it's a 2 minute job to switch them over.
The MSH 115 sound warmer, and a little less HF, or peaking in the HF, than the SP40.
Overall not bad sounding at all, run with no crossover at all, but the roll off is more noticable (probably as its sounds smoother also, and the lack of a peak is noticable)
So I add the Fountek Neo CD3.5H I've had stored for an age, and which I'd like to use with these kids. I whipped up a rubbish high pass, just to protect the ribbons and pad them down enough to match the mids.
In the end there padded down too far, and XO high up, 1uf and 22R, but the result is quite nice, dark at the HF, but enough that the ribbons cut through and add some sparkle the mids lack.
Works quite well with the limited low end in tiny boxes, avoiding it sounding too much like I have satellites and no sub.
If I can find some of my spares, I might have a crack at using the sub output of the stereo to drive the woofers on my main speakers, which are waiting for me to finish their respective amps.
Thanks to all who helpfully gave me their suggestions for a mid sensitivity midrange driver.
I 'settled' for Monacor MSH 115, and wellx settled was the wrong word. (These drivers are pretty special, clean, and only with a little hint of a break up peak before roll off.
Using a cheap pair of micro system speakers, I had already gutted of the original driver (attached photos).
These cabs had the cheaper Monacor SP40 universal woofer retrofitted for the last month or so (also a pretty smooth sounding, and near full range driver itself)
Great thing about these cabs (perhaps the only thing) is the cutout and screw holes are already there and it's a 2 minute job to switch them over.
The MSH 115 sound warmer, and a little less HF, or peaking in the HF, than the SP40.
Overall not bad sounding at all, run with no crossover at all, but the roll off is more noticable (probably as its sounds smoother also, and the lack of a peak is noticable)
So I add the Fountek Neo CD3.5H I've had stored for an age, and which I'd like to use with these kids. I whipped up a rubbish high pass, just to protect the ribbons and pad them down enough to match the mids.
In the end there padded down too far, and XO high up, 1uf and 22R, but the result is quite nice, dark at the HF, but enough that the ribbons cut through and add some sparkle the mids lack.
Works quite well with the limited low end in tiny boxes, avoiding it sounding too much like I have satellites and no sub.
If I can find some of my spares, I might have a crack at using the sub output of the stereo to drive the woofers on my main speakers, which are waiting for me to finish their respective amps.
Attachments
It is a midrange driver. It has manufacturer's suggested xo frequencies of 300 and 5k Hz, and your original request was for a midrange driver in a 3 way system.
(Having said that, I have used them full range in a 4 1/4 litre reflex with a Monacor rbt 95 (described by Monacor as a ribbon) from about 9 or 10k and it sounded very clean and pure at low levels. Used like that I feel it has to go hard against a back wall. You cannot afford to lose any bass from baffle step misusing a midrange driver like that.)
Are all those holes in your baffles integral to the design?
Midrange,
You jest of course?
No those boxes of chipboard, or compressed muesli, have holes for the the grilles to fit and the fifth hole is an Ill considered 10mm or so port tube.
That's essentially how the boxes are, as is.
The port is blocked, the 4 holes in the corners are blocked when the grille is on.
Against a wall and they dont sound bad at all, run without high pass.
But the THD audibly increases in the bass, so as you say, midrange is what they're really meant for. Other than that, they'd make a fairly good near full range speaker.
This was more of an exercise in guess-stimating a workable crossover to the ribbon, than a serious build!
To my mind, it's quite listenable with 10-12dB pad on the ribbon, 1st order HPd with 3uF, and 0.33mH on the MSH115.
It isnt going to stay so simple, but for the moment, it works alright!
Oh the RBT "ribbon" Planar driver or AMT. I can never recall but they remind me of some odd Phillip's Planars I have which are also so called ribbons.
FWIW the "other" Monacor ribbon *IS* identical to the Fountek neo CD3.5H... (though mine only cost €30 and still have the previous manufacturer name on them...dynavox?)
You jest of course?
No those boxes of chipboard, or compressed muesli, have holes for the the grilles to fit and the fifth hole is an Ill considered 10mm or so port tube.
That's essentially how the boxes are, as is.
The port is blocked, the 4 holes in the corners are blocked when the grille is on.
Against a wall and they dont sound bad at all, run without high pass.
But the THD audibly increases in the bass, so as you say, midrange is what they're really meant for. Other than that, they'd make a fairly good near full range speaker.
This was more of an exercise in guess-stimating a workable crossover to the ribbon, than a serious build!
To my mind, it's quite listenable with 10-12dB pad on the ribbon, 1st order HPd with 3uF, and 0.33mH on the MSH115.
It isnt going to stay so simple, but for the moment, it works alright!
Oh the RBT "ribbon" Planar driver or AMT. I can never recall but they remind me of some odd Phillip's Planars I have which are also so called ribbons.
FWIW the "other" Monacor ribbon *IS* identical to the Fountek neo CD3.5H... (though mine only cost €30 and still have the previous manufacturer name on them...dynavox?)
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Quite a few of my "prototypes" look remarkably similar to your boxes. I am interested as to how your design developes. Please keep us posted. I never realised the true potential of those drivers.
Haha my mains speakers are probably 10 years old now, dinks and dings from the kids (aided by drumsticks), and besides.... I never got around to sanding the baffle and edges flush. So they still have the print on the plywood edge in places, and no top coat.
Suffice to say, I'm good at getting to 99% complete, but then another comes along.
These boxes are just what I've had with the TV for a while now, and for that they're ok.
I do think that I'll probably take the MSH115 out and put the cheaper SP40 back in, for fear of damaging them when the OH has her 90s reggae moments.
Suffice to say, I'm good at getting to 99% complete, but then another comes along.
These boxes are just what I've had with the TV for a while now, and for that they're ok.
I do think that I'll probably take the MSH115 out and put the cheaper SP40 back in, for fear of damaging them when the OH has her 90s reggae moments.
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