Hi,
I've been looking over a couple of midrange drivers - midbass or dedicated midrange, for a small 3 way system I've been planning for the best part if a decade!
Hoffman's iron law I understand that I cant have everything.
So I've begun trying to find slightly more efficient drivers to use with my Fountek ribbons.
I have considered Audax HM100ZO (I liked the HDA drivers a lot, but this one isn't all that flat, though I'm sure HD is good, and it is a true midrange, Fs 250Hz)
I've considered a Full range driver, and not many could fit the bill. Maybe Fostex of some variety.
But I'm aiming for as flat frequency responses as I can get, given my efficiency requirement of 89-90dB.
So now I'm looking for any driver suggestions that can meet some or most of the following:
1) 89dB/W(8R) as a minimum, datasheet spec efficiency
2) Linear frequency response from 500Hz to 6kHz or better.
3) driver diameter of perhaps 4.5" (115mm), or 5" maximum diameter.
4) THD should be as good as possible.
I have looked at full range drivers, but the extra HF bandwidth isn't needed, I havent seen any with a clean declining HF response (rather the opposite for arrays).
TIA for any help and advice
I've been looking over a couple of midrange drivers - midbass or dedicated midrange, for a small 3 way system I've been planning for the best part if a decade!
Hoffman's iron law I understand that I cant have everything.
So I've begun trying to find slightly more efficient drivers to use with my Fountek ribbons.
I have considered Audax HM100ZO (I liked the HDA drivers a lot, but this one isn't all that flat, though I'm sure HD is good, and it is a true midrange, Fs 250Hz)
I've considered a Full range driver, and not many could fit the bill. Maybe Fostex of some variety.
But I'm aiming for as flat frequency responses as I can get, given my efficiency requirement of 89-90dB.
So now I'm looking for any driver suggestions that can meet some or most of the following:
1) 89dB/W(8R) as a minimum, datasheet spec efficiency
2) Linear frequency response from 500Hz to 6kHz or better.
3) driver diameter of perhaps 4.5" (115mm), or 5" maximum diameter.
4) THD should be as good as possible.
I have looked at full range drivers, but the extra HF bandwidth isn't needed, I havent seen any with a clean declining HF response (rather the opposite for arrays).
TIA for any help and advice
I have modelled a few (admit not heard them) for a 3 way one ones that worked best were (in order of modelled preference) -
scanspeak 10f8424 (or the 4ohm 10f4424) - nearer a 3.5” but very good from 600hz (used open baffle in the NAO Note RS II)
Morel EM1308 - 2” dome but very good from 750hz
TB W4-1377sd (new version) (used in the Speker Design Works Statement series).
Satori MR13P-4/8 - but does have a “wiggle” at 1.2khz but reports suggest this is not audible. Other have also used the MW16p but this round out around 3khz. Used in the Troels SB741 and SB761 respectively.
There is the new Satori dome mid MD60N but looks like this needs to cross at 800hz or higher.
If money is no option then the Volt VM752 is the daddy. (Used in ATC and PMC speakers iirc).
Hope that gives you a start.
scanspeak 10f8424 (or the 4ohm 10f4424) - nearer a 3.5” but very good from 600hz (used open baffle in the NAO Note RS II)
Morel EM1308 - 2” dome but very good from 750hz
TB W4-1377sd (new version) (used in the Speker Design Works Statement series).
Satori MR13P-4/8 - but does have a “wiggle” at 1.2khz but reports suggest this is not audible. Other have also used the MW16p but this round out around 3khz. Used in the Troels SB741 and SB761 respectively.
There is the new Satori dome mid MD60N but looks like this needs to cross at 800hz or higher.
If money is no option then the Volt VM752 is the daddy. (Used in ATC and PMC speakers iirc).
Hope that gives you a start.
Ok I guess I was a bit obtuse or obscure in my opening post.
6k isn't a hard boundary, more the figure sprang up from comparison between the Audax and Monacor SP-4/60 Pro, which I had seen before and paid little attention to.
What I find quite amazing is the Monacor looks to give good extension out to a bump at 6k (I guess break up here) and has good response low down in the range too, and looks quite flat through its range, and at about 89dB, where the dedicated mid, the Audax (which I just want to like, despite everything) doesnt look as flexible regarding crossover placement for a 3 way, but perhaps has an edge in efficiency used in its bandwidth.
I guess I'm looking for my ultimate FR driver! (Down 3dB at 120Hz and 12kHz on axis, smooth between and controlled roll off)
Thanks Ugg and Tromperie for the tips, I rarely look at seas, scan, volt just due to the eye watering prices! But nevertheless I shall have a look st your suggestions.
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The monacor I think is rebadged and here are some measurements, looks like the same driver, has the same model number.
Test Lautsprecherchassis Mitteltoner - IMG Stageline SP-4/60PRO
From the monocor single on axis measurements it looks nice and 6khz may be possible but I would not use this over 3khz when looking at the off axis measurements showing the breakup after that.
Typical use for small mid/full ranges in a 3 way are from 350hz max low end (for a 4” cone) to 3.5khz, stretching it to 6khz it a bit of a push and to go down to 120hz you will need a 6” which will not likely go over 2.5khz. Typically most drivers will only do one order of magnitude spread as a rough guess I.e. woofer from 35hz to 350hz, mid from 350hz to 3500hz and tweeter from 3500hz to 35000hz (well anything over 20000hz is ok). This would typically represent a 8” + 5” + 1” combination but each of the are probably +/- 1.5” depending on the drivers.
The other typical comment made about mids is to try and not use them under 2x their fs frequency. The Audax cited has an fs of 250hz to typically you would want to roll that off at the low end from 500hz.
Worth a read Design-Criteria
Finally if you like to look of the 2” morel dome then the mdm55 gives you 90% of the em1308 significantly cheaper or there is the combined mid/tweeter tm4055.
Test Lautsprecherchassis Mitteltoner - IMG Stageline SP-4/60PRO
From the monocor single on axis measurements it looks nice and 6khz may be possible but I would not use this over 3khz when looking at the off axis measurements showing the breakup after that.
Typical use for small mid/full ranges in a 3 way are from 350hz max low end (for a 4” cone) to 3.5khz, stretching it to 6khz it a bit of a push and to go down to 120hz you will need a 6” which will not likely go over 2.5khz. Typically most drivers will only do one order of magnitude spread as a rough guess I.e. woofer from 35hz to 350hz, mid from 350hz to 3500hz and tweeter from 3500hz to 35000hz (well anything over 20000hz is ok). This would typically represent a 8” + 5” + 1” combination but each of the are probably +/- 1.5” depending on the drivers.
The other typical comment made about mids is to try and not use them under 2x their fs frequency. The Audax cited has an fs of 250hz to typically you would want to roll that off at the low end from 500hz.
Worth a read Design-Criteria
Finally if you like to look of the 2” morel dome then the mdm55 gives you 90% of the em1308 significantly cheaper or there is the combined mid/tweeter tm4055.
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Satori MR16P - 4ohm.
SD is only 119cm.
Mms = 11.2grams.
A measured glue bead around the rear cone has been added to smooth SPL.
A ~2kHz crossover has some hearing advantages, and a smooth controlled directivity curve to a normal dome tweeter is easy to achieve.
SD is only 119cm.
Mms = 11.2grams.
A measured glue bead around the rear cone has been added to smooth SPL.
A ~2kHz crossover has some hearing advantages, and a smooth controlled directivity curve to a normal dome tweeter is easy to achieve.
Attachments
Why not make a hard boundary, this way you can specify with ease.
For example: how low does the ribbon go comfortably.
What is its directivity at that frequency (ie fully opened?)
Then - how much overlap can I afford
For example: will I tolerate the mid going narrow in the stopband, or will I let it narrow in the pass band, or should it be wide all the way through?
Will I want an octave to rolloff or will half do?
Then you can say the exact size midrange you need
Yes, but the breakup actually starts below 5k. This is the highest opportunity to cross reasonably.
Also, thanks to Ugg for the response plot, showing the narrowing among other things.
Thanks for the replies.
Kudos to Ugg for the plots of the SP4/60 (I can never find anything when I search those forum/magazines)
Ok, well as a hard boundary, for the Fountek CD3.5H I'd want to cross over at 3.5k (some issues are present at 2k and I need to stay above that, or provide enough attenuation below 2.5k, to be mindful.
Looking at 3.5k, the Audax would be troublesome, and the Monacor/stage line looks just about ok, although due to the increase in HD, I couldn't go any higher than that. And of course theres the beaming to consider. Its efficiency is attractive. As is the price (very cheap deal on at the moment: £5 GBP each)
Limesource, I'll have a further look at the Satori (and possibly the 10f mentioned before) though I suspect the price will discourage me a little!
I think that Monacor has acquired a lot of companies, since I last looked at their drivers closely - even the Fountek CD3.5H looks to be made by Monacor now, and sold for about 5 times what I bought them for!
Kudos to Ugg for the plots of the SP4/60 (I can never find anything when I search those forum/magazines)
Ok, well as a hard boundary, for the Fountek CD3.5H I'd want to cross over at 3.5k (some issues are present at 2k and I need to stay above that, or provide enough attenuation below 2.5k, to be mindful.
Looking at 3.5k, the Audax would be troublesome, and the Monacor/stage line looks just about ok, although due to the increase in HD, I couldn't go any higher than that. And of course theres the beaming to consider. Its efficiency is attractive. As is the price (very cheap deal on at the moment: £5 GBP each)
Limesource, I'll have a further look at the Satori (and possibly the 10f mentioned before) though I suspect the price will discourage me a little!
I think that Monacor has acquired a lot of companies, since I last looked at their drivers closely - even the Fountek CD3.5H looks to be made by Monacor now, and sold for about 5 times what I bought them for!
-linearity depends a lot on the baffle the driver is placed on. 😉
AUDAX HM100Z0 (Mid-range 4", 8 Ohm, 80Wmax)
-not something to extend down to 120 Hz though. 😱
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if you are looking at bargain basement, this did well in the mid range shoot out documented on this site.
Peerless by Tymphany TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer
Peerless by Tymphany TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer
Still like the FaitalPro 5FE120.
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 5FE120
It'll cost you £21 from Lean Business or Blue Aran.
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 5FE120
It'll cost you £21 from Lean Business or Blue Aran.
Hi,
Thanks for the suggestion.
Bargain basement isn't how I'd term my budget, although I suppose it is after all.
Value for money. Bang for buck.
Since the ribbons were only €30 each, I'm looking at a reasonable cost quality match - and the Monacor SP4/60 would seem to fit that. The other monacor suggested may be good too!
I also need to take a closer look at some of the other suggestions.
And then I need to work out what woofer I can use with them - so flexibility at the lower end of the midrange helps.
Sadly that means most the mid domes are out, which is s shame, but most of them aren't particularly smooth until they reach 1k or higher. Which largely defeats the object.
The Faital 5" looks like quite a good option, on par or better than the SP4/60 as far as smoothness of response goes.
I need to look over some of their other offerings, in the 4" class.
Its silly but 5" just feels like the absolute max diameter I'd accept.
I still have a pair of Audax AP130ZO too, and still love the midrange, but after 10 years storage, Fs is nearer 100Hz than 60, and the upper response above 2 k was always a bit whacky sounding. Otherwise they'd be a free option!
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Short list
Monacor SP4/60 pro (8R: +1)
Monacor MSH 115 (8R: 89dB)
Monacor MSH 116-4 (4R: -1)
Faital 4FE32 (8R: +1)
Faital 5FE120 (4R: -1)
Monacor SP4/60 pro (8R: +1)
Monacor MSH 115 (8R: 89dB)
Monacor MSH 116-4 (4R: -1)
Faital 4FE32 (8R: +1)
Faital 5FE120 (4R: -1)
Yup. I didn't notice his reply at first, but it is pretty close to the mark, good suggestions.
Well, I have had one experience of MA.
It wasnt an awful experience but it would take cones made of unicorn poop or free samples for me to risk another MA driver.
Beautifully made, could look at them all day, trouble is my ears are blind.
All suggestions are welcome though, and thanks for yours also!
Since you mention this will be a "small" 3-way I think that:
The woofer will not be large, therefore it can operate to almost 1kHz.
To save space and make construction easier, a self-contained dome midrange is best
Since the W-M crossover point does not need to be low, a 2" dome will suffice
The M-T crossover point will be a bit higher, e.g. 3kHz or above, so you can use a very small and compact tweeter but it needs to be placed as close to the mid as possible.
Morel makes some good compact dome midranges, but it just happens that they recently released a mid+tweeter unit on a circular faceplate. Both the mid and tweeter have a sealed back chamber. You can just route a circular hole and plop in the mid+tweet module just like you would a woofer. No need to build a separate chamber, and the round mounting plate makes installation very easy.
Here is a link to the product:
Morel TM4055-8 Tweeter-Midrange
Combine that with a 6" or 7" class woofer in a small box and you will have a great 3-way monitor.
I wish there were more of these combinations available for the DIYer!
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2k5 from 3k5 is 1/2 an octave. Not abnormal. 1/2 an octave on 3k5 is 4k9. If you want a driver that is working well at 3k5, and useable in the stopband to 4k9, the Audax may be an option.
What concerns do you have?
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