This thread isn't about that at all. It was about mesh plate tubes.
How musicians think is not relevant to this discussion. The ideas offered were not even close to accurate on that point. And the most important term is "reproduction of music". Could be reproduction of nature sounds or anything else. The goal is identical.
How musicians think is not relevant to this discussion. The ideas offered were not even close to accurate on that point. And the most important term is "reproduction of music". Could be reproduction of nature sounds or anything else. The goal is identical.
I know the feeling. My wife says about me: "you don't need to feed him, just let him argue". Sounds much better in Russian 😀
Andy is a professional musician so he knows what instruments sound like “live”.
So when he listens to the same instruments through a reproduction sound system, he knows if the system is actually reproducing the instrument.
That is why I have followed him for years and listen to an all DTH SET system.
Hi RPMac,
Not disputing this. Andy and I have vastly differing experiences with real musicians.
I also know how instruments sound live, but this was not the discussion. It was on mesh plate tubes and onto some technical aspects. The open door was somehow the mesh plate sounded different than the solid plate. Musicians and what people prefer have exactly zero to do with this. All that is off topic.
I played piano, and not well. lol! But I worked with musicians a lot repairing their equipment, and in all kinds of recording studios. I am not unaware of how this business operates, or how some individual musicians operate. I've also said, "whatever works for you is fine" several times, several ways. I'm not the one saying "this is better for all".
Not disputing this. Andy and I have vastly differing experiences with real musicians.
I also know how instruments sound live, but this was not the discussion. It was on mesh plate tubes and onto some technical aspects. The open door was somehow the mesh plate sounded different than the solid plate. Musicians and what people prefer have exactly zero to do with this. All that is off topic.
I played piano, and not well. lol! But I worked with musicians a lot repairing their equipment, and in all kinds of recording studios. I am not unaware of how this business operates, or how some individual musicians operate. I've also said, "whatever works for you is fine" several times, several ways. I'm not the one saying "this is better for all".
Thank you! That means a lot to me. Music and musicians have always been my life and my life's wok, and I've put so much into it.
Now you're talkin'!!
2 3kV on the plates, 10 years in operation and no electrocution!
200WPC peak from a single-ended DHT amp. Glorious sound, too. Practical or affordable??? Not so much, took me a year to build. But I love them.
Attachments
This is the kind of insulting, dismissive post by the 0.001% THD crowd that derails threads that otherwise could be informative/educational.
Most of those high FB, push pull amps I have heard are sterile, fatiguing and in no way engaging, but engineers love them because they measure well testing on a scope with a single frequency audio signal. There is no army of people who feel that way (I don't see people even liking your posts...), in fact most folks interested in buying tube gear are doing so after listening to a single ended DHT with zero NFB because these simple amps aren't splitting up signals using high distortion pentode tubes, that require a boat load of GNFB to tame them and expand the missing frequency response back into something tolerable to listen to, and then having these signals reassembled in the transformer. Yet you can't see these type amps are the real "effects rack" destroying the clarity and timbre the original signal had in their processing of it in the attempt to get more power cheaper.
When people say can't hear this stuff, I just have to assume they have the audio equivalent of color blindness and simple can't hear this, so then proclaim it doesn't exist. Sadly those folks will never be honest with themselves and concede they could possibly be missing something.
i never used em, but supposedly they were good.
many years gone. however, both "northern electric" and "sophia electric" were rebranding and selling the leftovers at quite a markup recently, the 12AX7 as well. you can get some other leftovers onthe auction site.
many years gone. however, both "northern electric" and "sophia electric" were rebranding and selling the leftovers at quite a markup recently, the 12AX7 as well. you can get some other leftovers onthe auction site.
Mesh, or perforated nickel plate? I have their "mesh" 45 and 205D, but those are just perforated plates.
Hi stephe,
You're either making generalizations, or have never heard a good solid state amplifier. They can sound very open and natural. Otherwise I wouldn't listen to them. I've also heard great tube product, but never heard a good single ended, low feedback amplifier - ever. They sound fun, can be enjoyable but not a steady diet!
I don't chase numbers. I use instruments to find and solve problems. Not too surprising, when things are right, the instrument recorded spectrum looks better, cleaner. Many folks might swallow the fallacy that a clean, non-distorted amplifier is sterile. Nothing could be further from the truth. Sterile comes from some HF distortion. That is related to a "hard" sound. Fix that stuff and you're closer to "a wire with gain". If you don't like that, you don't like the actual recorded material you are playing.
Anyway, I am both serious and correct. Take a perfect amplifier, add the "nice box" ahead of it to get the sound you want. If the spectra of your favorite amplifier was measured and put into an effects unit, you couldn't tell the difference between a perfect amp using the box and your own. You'd correct the output power and impedance / reaction with your speaker as well. That's because the transfer characteristics would be the same. What is in the box doesn't actually matter, it is the transfer characteristic. This is something I have proved along with others. It also makes sense.
I've always been about fact and truth. I listen, measure and observe people. I am positive some people really don't like what I say - or me for that matter. The truth when it doesn't agree with your view is a challenge. People don't like challenges. I never lie.
You're either making generalizations, or have never heard a good solid state amplifier. They can sound very open and natural. Otherwise I wouldn't listen to them. I've also heard great tube product, but never heard a good single ended, low feedback amplifier - ever. They sound fun, can be enjoyable but not a steady diet!
I don't chase numbers. I use instruments to find and solve problems. Not too surprising, when things are right, the instrument recorded spectrum looks better, cleaner. Many folks might swallow the fallacy that a clean, non-distorted amplifier is sterile. Nothing could be further from the truth. Sterile comes from some HF distortion. That is related to a "hard" sound. Fix that stuff and you're closer to "a wire with gain". If you don't like that, you don't like the actual recorded material you are playing.
Anyway, I am both serious and correct. Take a perfect amplifier, add the "nice box" ahead of it to get the sound you want. If the spectra of your favorite amplifier was measured and put into an effects unit, you couldn't tell the difference between a perfect amp using the box and your own. You'd correct the output power and impedance / reaction with your speaker as well. That's because the transfer characteristics would be the same. What is in the box doesn't actually matter, it is the transfer characteristic. This is something I have proved along with others. It also makes sense.
I've always been about fact and truth. I listen, measure and observe people. I am positive some people really don't like what I say - or me for that matter. The truth when it doesn't agree with your view is a challenge. People don't like challenges. I never lie.
Yeah, and so people who don't agree with your POV are all about spreading falsehood and lies, got it.
And what does any of what you have sidetracked this thread into (you bragging about your expertise and claiming you know what is best) have to do with mesh plate tubes? Single ended vs push pull? Nothing. Solid state amps? Nothing. Talking about the army of people who agree with you? Nothing.
Here's what I'd like to hear from those experienced with musicians and recording. Has there ever been a noted case where the amplifier type - perhaps DHT with all its perceived superlatives when reproducing music - when used as a monitor, has inspired a musician to play better, because their "sound is so good" due to the amplifier used?
Of course, limiting to cases where deliberate distortion is not part of the sound, like vocal and acoustic instrument recording...
One would think if it's good for the goose, it's likewise good for the gander. There should be a natural feedback loop between the musicians performance and how they sound to themselves. Someone operating a studio for years should detect something like "whenever we use this particular amplifier to drive the monitor, most everyone just wails it out". One would think that would sell studio time.
Of course, limiting to cases where deliberate distortion is not part of the sound, like vocal and acoustic instrument recording...
One would think if it's good for the goose, it's likewise good for the gander. There should be a natural feedback loop between the musicians performance and how they sound to themselves. Someone operating a studio for years should detect something like "whenever we use this particular amplifier to drive the monitor, most everyone just wails it out". One would think that would sell studio time.
Although , SE amplifiers should be the most technically inferior, I confirm they sound special and natural.
I suggest skipping THD and IMD numbers and think from the perspective of weight. SE amplifiers for most of the time will be heavier for the same power output than PP counterparts and even SS counterparts.
For those not afraid of abstract stuff, try adding weight to your amplifier and listen what happens.
I suggest skipping THD and IMD numbers and think from the perspective of weight. SE amplifiers for most of the time will be heavier for the same power output than PP counterparts and even SS counterparts.
For those not afraid of abstract stuff, try adding weight to your amplifier and listen what happens.
My headphone amp is going to be around 20kg/watt. Maybe we can start using that number for the sound quality of an amp. Have factors for the topology, like 2.0x for SE, 1.2x for PP, 1.6x for triodes, 1.5x for pentode, end up with a TrustMeBro Quality rating. Mesh getting 5.0x for esthetics alone.
One can build by schematic, exactly the same amplifiers with exactly same electronic parts, and just play with the chassis materials. For example, one could be copper-wood-phenolic, the other aluminum-glass-mylar.
That way, electronic performance can be taken out of equation. Both should sound the same, right? And on top of that, you could add a 10-20kg stone, preferably at the center point of a flat chassis surface.
That way, electronic performance can be taken out of equation. Both should sound the same, right? And on top of that, you could add a 10-20kg stone, preferably at the center point of a flat chassis surface.
Doesn't work. Once you strip out the micro tonalities in a PP amp they're gone forever. Can't be retrieved. They're gone, extinct, kaput, expired, pushing up the daisies. They are no more, they've vamoosed......
On the subject of "truth", you might like this quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson
"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons...."