So simple.
Minimal noise, lowest distortion of various types. Best load immunity (within reason). It doesn't matter what technology you use to get there.
Other factors would be reliability, cost of ownership and probably power consumption within reason. For some things, user safety. I'm sure someone has a real transmitting tube stereo using thousands of volts on the plates.
Intended use always comes into it. All in all, just "within reason".
"Better" qualified to what you like is a special case defined by your own desires. That's cool. Just be honest with yourself. Your personal preferences do not override another person's preferences.
Minimal noise, lowest distortion of various types. Best load immunity (within reason). It doesn't matter what technology you use to get there.
Other factors would be reliability, cost of ownership and probably power consumption within reason. For some things, user safety. I'm sure someone has a real transmitting tube stereo using thousands of volts on the plates.
Intended use always comes into it. All in all, just "within reason".
"Better" qualified to what you like is a special case defined by your own desires. That's cool. Just be honest with yourself. Your personal preferences do not override another person's preferences.
Still have those, so yes, the memory is still fresh. 🙂
Good thing I'm deaf then isn't it. 😉
jeff
"Better" for me and others like me will always be "closer to the tonality and timbre of live acoustic instruments". And yes, for me I get that from Single Ended amps using just DHTs. Single ended because PP flattens and whitens the complex tonality and harmonic overtones of acoustic instruments. You get the power and a clean and compact sound, yes, but along the way you've lost some of the micro tonalities. So I'm not prepared to use PP unless I need the power to drive speakers I like such as Apogee ribbons or larger Maggie's, though it's also clear that others don't care and like the PP sound in general. DHT because no indirectly heated valve has the special clarity and tone of a valve like 10Y or 26. These choices will be no surprise to many here who use SE amps and DHTs.
What can be tiresome is that the above choices are referred to by certain people here as using an "effects box" or "if it's what you like, then it's your choice" or other humiliating put downs. We get very familiar with this kind of stuff since we have to suffer these put downs fairly regularly from the .001% distortion bean counters.
I could easily turn this on its head and say "if PP is what you like, then it's your choice, as long as you don't mind an effects box which flattens the micro tonalities" but predictably I'd get a response saying "what is your measured evidence for that?" with 2 or 3 likes tagged on to it.
What can be tiresome is that the above choices are referred to by certain people here as using an "effects box" or "if it's what you like, then it's your choice" or other humiliating put downs. We get very familiar with this kind of stuff since we have to suffer these put downs fairly regularly from the .001% distortion bean counters.
I could easily turn this on its head and say "if PP is what you like, then it's your choice, as long as you don't mind an effects box which flattens the micro tonalities" but predictably I'd get a response saying "what is your measured evidence for that?" with 2 or 3 likes tagged on to it.
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Okay Andy,
So you're telling me that instead of accepting the mix as the musicians and recording engineer agreed on, you'd like to colour it yet again? Okay, cool. Enjoy.
Otherwise, I'd rather listen to a system that doesn't mess with the sound.
So you're telling me that instead of accepting the mix as the musicians and recording engineer agreed on, you'd like to colour it yet again? Okay, cool. Enjoy.
Otherwise, I'd rather listen to a system that doesn't mess with the sound.
Every system messes with the sound, even "your" clean technically perfect system. No such thing as ideal components; tubes or solid-state. If there were, there would not be a million different FETs or transistors (tubes, etc), we would have a handful if not less.
I don't know what the tonality of most instruments is, the only reference for live music that I have is mainly pop/rock and maybe some piano in a hotel lobby. Basically everything is amplified already, mixed or with synths. Yet I do know when a recording I am listening to has a broad sound stage with instruments clearly spaced and positioned, or is flat as a piece of paper with very harsh high-mids in the voices and it all blend together when the passage gets louder. That and the million shades of pink in between.
Maybe we should all just agree to disagree on what "better" means.
I don't know what the tonality of most instruments is, the only reference for live music that I have is mainly pop/rock and maybe some piano in a hotel lobby. Basically everything is amplified already, mixed or with synths. Yet I do know when a recording I am listening to has a broad sound stage with instruments clearly spaced and positioned, or is flat as a piece of paper with very harsh high-mids in the voices and it all blend together when the passage gets louder. That and the million shades of pink in between.
Maybe we should all just agree to disagree on what "better" means.
Fair enough.
Like always, "within reason" and the less the reproduction system messes things up, the closer you are to the intended sound. Now if you want to change things, have at it. Tone controls are one example. No one ever said any system was perfect. and speakers - rooms sure aren't.
One thing is clear. Different people can deal with various imperfections better than others. As systems have more problems, people break up into groups that can deal with those problems better than others. As systems become closer to perfect, most folks would probably like those more.
Like always, "within reason" and the less the reproduction system messes things up, the closer you are to the intended sound. Now if you want to change things, have at it. Tone controls are one example. No one ever said any system was perfect. and speakers - rooms sure aren't.
One thing is clear. Different people can deal with various imperfections better than others. As systems have more problems, people break up into groups that can deal with those problems better than others. As systems become closer to perfect, most folks would probably like those more.
Better or "best" cannot exist in the audio world.
One reason is the subjective perception of sound, being similar to our selection towards music. Tastes all over the place.
For example, many SET fans love fullrange speakers. I can't stand them. Larger ones are highly directional, they have break-ups, most projects have little to no low-end response.
But it could be that fullrange speakers systems recreate aspects of music their fans fall for.
Another reason are the recordings. Some of them are quite colored and go well with sterile sounding systems. And vice versa.
A third reason is that audio is another art of compromises. You cannot have everything perfect. A room will always add some extent of coloration and frequency response alteration. Speakers also have limitations.
We have to keep consensus between objective vs subjective crowd. Both can coexist within reason. You don't have to go into protective berserk mode over your claims or system. A highly subjective audiophile doesn't have to ridicule the experience of graduated engineers. A structured objective person doesn't have to call every subjective audiophile experience as placebo, because of the absence of data.
One reason is the subjective perception of sound, being similar to our selection towards music. Tastes all over the place.
For example, many SET fans love fullrange speakers. I can't stand them. Larger ones are highly directional, they have break-ups, most projects have little to no low-end response.
But it could be that fullrange speakers systems recreate aspects of music their fans fall for.
Another reason are the recordings. Some of them are quite colored and go well with sterile sounding systems. And vice versa.
A third reason is that audio is another art of compromises. You cannot have everything perfect. A room will always add some extent of coloration and frequency response alteration. Speakers also have limitations.
We have to keep consensus between objective vs subjective crowd. Both can coexist within reason. You don't have to go into protective berserk mode over your claims or system. A highly subjective audiophile doesn't have to ridicule the experience of graduated engineers. A structured objective person doesn't have to call every subjective audiophile experience as placebo, because of the absence of data.
Hi 50AE,
I guess you completely missed that post.
One thing I have noticed over the decades. As the equipment gets better, the more people like it. Get rid of a problem (as I did in some of my equipment) and those who didn't like it before now do. I wonder why? Better is better. Closer to what any one person prefers is an entirely different thing. For that you may as well argue colour. Expect the same results.
I guess you completely missed that post.
It absolutely can. We can define it better than ever before. The information conflicts with what some of us want to hear, that's all.
I specifically differentiated between better performance and personal taste. Each can be quantified, but trying to define personal taste is a waste of time. Defining performance isn't.
Now you're blaming the recording. If it's bad, don't buy it.
That's the same as your subjective comment, replied to.
Actually, I never have. I have acknowledged that everyone has their preferences. No argument there. But a preference does not trump technical reality, especially since no one can agree to what they all like. I said that too.
One thing I have noticed over the decades. As the equipment gets better, the more people like it. Get rid of a problem (as I did in some of my equipment) and those who didn't like it before now do. I wonder why? Better is better. Closer to what any one person prefers is an entirely different thing. For that you may as well argue colour. Expect the same results.
Single ended has one effect on the sound, push pull has another effect. They both colour in different ways since no reproduction is perfect..
If you like the colour of push pull, Okay, cool. Enjoy.
Musicians never agreed to their work only being played on push pull systems. You can believe me that such a thought would never enter their heads.
Hi Andy,
The musicians I've met don't care. These are well known folks in major studios. Not once have I ever heard that statement made by any musician - ever. They care their music is enjoyed. How? They honestly don't care as long as it sells. They do want a clean recording. I'm sure you can come up with some that might say this, but it sure iosn't anyone I've met, and I have never heard engineers or producers make that claim. I think that would put them on the floor laughing!
Any push-pull electronics operate equally in phase, much more so than single ended. We don't care about the speaker and air, because that is outside of what the electronics does. Dragging that into the question merely pushes everything off in a useless direction.
Also, positive and negative transitions are so easily measured, quantified it is silly. Low distortion means equal positive and negative transitions with minimal "crossover" issues. The entire goal is to put out a finished product that doesn't require any other processing, and messing with it is opposite to what the producer, engineer and musician wanted. They put out a product they were happy with. Now if you personally want to adjust it, cool. That's your deal alone. Don't force it on others.
I am now stunned you would even assert any musician would care if equipment was single ended or not., I do know for sure that once the studio product is done, coloring it further makes a total waste of the time and care putting it together. So, I deal with musicians in case you haven't guessed. Some not successful, some very. Live sound in auditoriums, everything. From what I have known since the 70's, everything you just said is totally untrue.
The musicians I've met don't care. These are well known folks in major studios. Not once have I ever heard that statement made by any musician - ever. They care their music is enjoyed. How? They honestly don't care as long as it sells. They do want a clean recording. I'm sure you can come up with some that might say this, but it sure iosn't anyone I've met, and I have never heard engineers or producers make that claim. I think that would put them on the floor laughing!
Any push-pull electronics operate equally in phase, much more so than single ended. We don't care about the speaker and air, because that is outside of what the electronics does. Dragging that into the question merely pushes everything off in a useless direction.
Also, positive and negative transitions are so easily measured, quantified it is silly. Low distortion means equal positive and negative transitions with minimal "crossover" issues. The entire goal is to put out a finished product that doesn't require any other processing, and messing with it is opposite to what the producer, engineer and musician wanted. They put out a product they were happy with. Now if you personally want to adjust it, cool. That's your deal alone. Don't force it on others.
I am now stunned you would even assert any musician would care if equipment was single ended or not., I do know for sure that once the studio product is done, coloring it further makes a total waste of the time and care putting it together. So, I deal with musicians in case you haven't guessed. Some not successful, some very. Live sound in auditoriums, everything. From what I have known since the 70's, everything you just said is totally untrue.
Objectively, you can define "best" on also defined criteria. I can agree on this one, but the subjective personal taste stays. And taste is dominant in audio, this is why there cannot be "best" from a subjective point of view.
Technical reality should stay that way, as you're sayng. What I am trying to tell is, you cannot ignore subjective preference neither. And taste is not only about audio reproduction. It could be about size, weight, cost and visuals as well. Any person with customer experience should know. Better in terms of what aspect? Even if we isolate technical from subjective, take a speaker for example. Not only frequency response and distortion, but also directivity vs frequency, crossover directivity, spatial behavior and panel coloration. Is there an universal creme de la creme speaker taking all of these to the max?
You may deal with musicians but that doesn't mean you know them. They're my people. I'm not only a professional musician but for 30 years I had a practice as a psychologist where I specialised in musicians and performers and saw around 3,000 in total, who all talked to me at length about their work and lives. I led an MA programme in Performance Psychology and was the Performance Coach for the London School of Music and then BIMM rock school for many years. So yes, I understand musicians very well indeed and also published 6 books about musicians, performers and the media.
So....
- Musicians absolutely do care about the sound they get on their recordings. They talk endlessly to engineers about tweaking this and that. How can you doubt this?
- Musicians may want all kinds of sound, like grunge, distorted, whatever. It's their choice. Engineers who try and straight jacket musicians into the sound they themselves prefer get shunned by musicians. Yes, I've met one or two who told me to my face they know more about the sound I want than I - the songwriter - do. I never used them again. Once only for that.
You go on forever about single ended being "coloured" and push pull being "clean and uncoloured". You're not going to change ever, since you're totally convinced that you are right. That's actually not how scientists and science works.
Totally agree!
The big problem is subjective criteria compared to actual performance. If we can keep those two defined and separate, many fights could be avoided. I completely get, and agree that people have different tastes. I sold stereo equipment for some years.
Performance is a well defined thing, really well defined today where it wasn't even close in the 1970's. Personal taste, that is also it's own thing and very okay.
The big problem is subjective criteria compared to actual performance. If we can keep those two defined and separate, many fights could be avoided. I completely get, and agree that people have different tastes. I sold stereo equipment for some years.
Performance is a well defined thing, really well defined today where it wasn't even close in the 1970's. Personal taste, that is also it's own thing and very okay.
Hi Andy ..
psychologist
Bingo !!!!
I do know some musicians very, very well. The sane ones are realistic. I also understand them. I would never change the sound of a musical instrument or guitar amp. Totally different than a music reproduction system.
Been there for many discussions in the studios and repairing their gear. Everyone cares about the recording. Some musicians fail to understand the product has to sell as well. Those are pretty far out there, and they have a contract to create saleable material. Those individuals should have thought of that before they signed and took the money!
Never did I say push pull wasn't coloured. But it is much less so than a single ended amp. This is something agreed upon by most if not all but a few. I have been extremely clear about everything. You're the one dragging in the shifting unknowns and undefinable aspects.
A noise that isn't true to the original is distorted. Whether you like that distortion is a personal debate, but by definition that is distortion. It also will not sound the same as the original sound. Doesn't matter what you drag into argue that point.
psychologist
Bingo !!!!
I do know some musicians very, very well. The sane ones are realistic. I also understand them. I would never change the sound of a musical instrument or guitar amp. Totally different than a music reproduction system.
Been there for many discussions in the studios and repairing their gear. Everyone cares about the recording. Some musicians fail to understand the product has to sell as well. Those are pretty far out there, and they have a contract to create saleable material. Those individuals should have thought of that before they signed and took the money!
Never did I say push pull wasn't coloured. But it is much less so than a single ended amp. This is something agreed upon by most if not all but a few. I have been extremely clear about everything. You're the one dragging in the shifting unknowns and undefinable aspects.
A noise that isn't true to the original is distorted. Whether you like that distortion is a personal debate, but by definition that is distortion. It also will not sound the same as the original sound. Doesn't matter what you drag into argue that point.
"Hi Andy .. psychologist .. Bingo !!!!
I do know some musicians very, very well. The sane ones are realistic. I also understand them......Some musicians fail to understand the product has to sell as well. Those are pretty far out there, and they have a contract to create saleable material. Those individuals should have thought of that before they signed and took the money!"
Ah, OK. I can see quite clearly where you are coming from now.
I do know some musicians very, very well. The sane ones are realistic. I also understand them......Some musicians fail to understand the product has to sell as well. Those are pretty far out there, and they have a contract to create saleable material. Those individuals should have thought of that before they signed and took the money!"
Ah, OK. I can see quite clearly where you are coming from now.
"So, what have we learnt?"
Potentially quite a lot if you go deeper into the interface between musicians and how they think, and the audio reproduction of music.
What have you learned yourself? We've covered quite a lot of ground. And some very interesting theories on mesh plates.
Potentially quite a lot if you go deeper into the interface between musicians and how they think, and the audio reproduction of music.
What have you learned yourself? We've covered quite a lot of ground. And some very interesting theories on mesh plates.